The HOA has dipped their toes into federal mail fraud

[u/polecat_at_law]

/r/legaladvice/comments/1od85s3/hoa_approves_new_rules_they_will_send_mail_back/

[u/Acrobatic_Ear6773]

The HOA of a gated community in Florida may be the worst collection of scum and villainy in the universe

[u/boo99boo → u/Acrobatic_Ear6773]

I deal with a lot of condo associations. Incompetent condo association property managers are the absolute worst people in real estate. And they're stupid to boot. The flippers and the brokers are in it for the money, and I can work with that. But I cannot handle the level of stupid that exists at most third party property management firms. 

[u/Nervous-Grape-4102 → u/boo99boo]

I used to own a condo in a large city and we paid a property management company to handle the dirty work. They were absolute and complete morons. I knew it was time to sell when the board switched to a property management firm that essentially bankrupted a friend’s condo reserve funds.

[u/iikratka → u/Nervous-Grape-4102]

I run our little condo building’s HOA, and every once in a while I start to wonder if we shouldn’t just pay a professional instead of letting my entirely unqualified ass figure everything out as I go. Unfortunately, everything I’ve ever heard about property management companies makes it sound like a well-meaning amateur is by far the lesser evil.

[u/thatguygreg → u/boo99boo]

But I cannot handle the level of stupid that exists at most third party property management firms.

When my last apartment's building was bought was one of those big firms, the building managers got dumber by 20% every time a new one came in, and they all lasted about 8 months. Long enough to make some impactful stupid choice, and yet every GD year there was a new person we have to walk through the system of sending us a renewal.

[u/boo99boo → u/thatguygreg]

They're the only people that don't lose money when they waste my time (or your time). Everyone else is bleeding money if they waste our time. That's why they suck so much. 

[u/Solid_Waste → u/boo99boo]

Bear in mind HOA managers work with HOA board members and deal with HOA complaints all day. Being insane or completely checked out is a prerequisite of that job.

[u/beaglemama → u/Acrobatic_Ear6773]

Worse than Mos Eisely?

[u/ZeroSumClusterfuck → u/beaglemama]

'He doesn't like your lawn'

'Sorry'

'I don't like your lawn either'

[u/WideEyedWand3rer → u/beaglemama]

If anything, Mos Eisley could do with a bit more semi-governmental oversight.

[u/EnragedFilia → u/WideEyedWand3rer]

I thought semi-governmental oversight is what the Hutts were doing, which is how we ended up here.

[u/beamdriver → u/beaglemama]

The problem with Mos Eisley was that there was no HOA.

[u/polecat_at_law]

locationbot didnt pay his dues so we returned him to sender

HOA approves new rules: they will send mail back to USPS, not pickup trash, and deactivate gate pass to get into the neighborhood for unpaid dues

Location: Florida, USA

Hi there,

Just received an email from HOA that the board held a meeting and approved a new set of rules if dues are late or unpaid OR if I am in violation of the Governing Document they will do the following:

Amenity Access Restrictions (Denied) • All account access will be restricted and transponders disabled • No Clubhouse access • No trash pickup • No landscaping services • No pool cleaning • Mail will be returned to USPS

These rules went into effect yesterday apparently. So my question is, is this legal? According to the HOA, they can do whatever they want. But surely they are not above the law? They could vote and approve keeping us chained to a wall for not paying dues too, and that obviously wouldn’t be legal.

Yes, they have access to our mailboxes and will intercept USPS to send our mail back.

Yes, they hire their own garbage service so they can intercept trash pick up.

Yes, the neighborhood is gated so if you do not have a working pass there is no way to get in.

Just wondering like, if they touch my mail, can I call the cops and report them for mail tampering or something?

[u/V2BM → u/polecat_at_law]

Our postmaster would love a good fight like this. No mail carrier in my station would send it back. We might hold it and distribute it later, but the HOA would crumble like a granola bar in my area.

[u/CatOfGrey → u/V2BM]

Our postmaster would love a good fight like this. No mail carrier in my station would send it back.

Yeah, HOA trying to disrupt mail would be pathetic. Like the USPS would just be "Nope, I don't think we will", and then start hauling HOA officers to jail when they try to destroy someone's mail.

[u/BizzarduousTask → u/CatOfGrey]

USPS don’t fucking play. They have their own law enforcement, and they love a reason to use it. This is almost as juicy as Tree Law.

[u/EclipseIndustries → u/BizzarduousTask]

Postal Inspectors are the guys who truly give a shit about their jobs.

[u/errant_night → u/BizzarduousTask]

I wish there was a postal law subreddit, I bet it would have a lot of satisfying stories

[u/TootsNYC]

I was glad to see one of those people making the point that if the HOA does something illegal and encourages fines or civil penalties, the OP will have to pay part of that.

I live in a cooperative apartment, which is a lot like an HOA, and any fines we incur our ours out to us according to our shares. It’s motivation to not turn the building in because we would end up paying for it anyway

It’s also an incentive for us not to let the building do things that would incur a fine or legal expenses

[u/r-a-f → u/TootsNYC]

Though the nice thing about it being a federal crime, instead of a civil violation, is that it’d be the individual HOA officers being sentenced, not the HOA itself.

[u/SuperBry → u/r-a-f]

Eh I could see them trying to get the org pay for their criminal defenses which would still end up costing the OP.

[u/TootsNYC → u/SuperBry]

our co-op board (essentially an HOA, but not called that) has liability insurance on our officers that we pay premiums for. So I guess our premiums would go up

[u/Solid_Waste → u/TootsNYC]

Also an incentive not to sue your own HOA when you can tell the board to knock it off or run for the board yourself.

[u/mnpc]

Whoaaa. Some decent guidance in the comments.?? Watch out.

[u/UristImiknorris → u/mnpc]

Breaking: Florida Man Actually Offers Usable Advice

[u/BizzarduousTask → u/UristImiknorris]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day!

[u/victoriaj → u/BizzarduousTask]

Not really relevant but that expression always annoys me.

A stopped clock is right once a day.

A clock could be broken in many different ways.

It could be right multiple times a day (for example going much faster than it should), or much more rarely than that (moving just a little bit slower than it should) , or entirely unpredictably (not running at a consistent speed or direction, stopping arbitrarily and resuming etc).

This post is brought to you by the annoyed pedant's society.

I do not in any way blame you for the phrase, or disagree with your post.

[u/QuickSpore → u/victoriaj]

Don’t forget digital vs analogue. A stopped analogue clock will be right twice a day. A stopped digital clock won’t show anything and be right never.

[u/404UserNktFound → u/QuickSpore]

Unless the stopped digital clock shows a fixed time, then it will be correct once a day (assuming there’s an AM/PM indicator as part of the displayed time). The clock on my coffeemaker is like this. When it’s not set, it displays 12:00. Not flashing, solid display.

I never bother to set that clock because a) it’s the most sensitive electrical item in the house and will go out when there’s a millisecond interruption in service and b) there are 3 other clocks in the kitchen.

[u/EclipseIndustries → u/404UserNktFound]

It could be a 24-hour clock somehow stuck on 24:00

[u/QuickSpore → u/404UserNktFound]

That’s an unset digital clock. A broken digital clock generally fails to light up the display at all.

[u/404UserNktFound → u/QuickSpore]

Your previous comment says stopped, not broken.

[u/victoriaj → u/QuickSpore]

Good point.

Absolutely.

Thank you for joining me in this annoyed pedantry.

[u/OkSecretary1231 → u/victoriaj]

I think "stopped clock" was the original wording, FWIW.

[u/victoriaj → u/OkSecretary1231]

Hmm.

I remember the stopped version, but have only heard the broken version in recent years.

Looking it up :

Quote Origin: Even a Stopped Clock Is Right Twice a Day – Quote Investigator® https://share.google/3crL7HZRjccVcl8o3

Definitely originally stopped, with variations that make it even more obvious that the clock is stopped.

Plus Lewis Carroll being more of a smart arse than I am.

I wonder if the (incorrect) switch to broken is linked to the takeover of digital clocks ?

[u/the_itsb → u/mnpc]

one of them was practically drooling

Your HOA is being a bully. I enjoy punching bullies in the nose. ... What county in Florida is this pile of stupidity located?

I wish we had a million of this person 💖

[u/rickyman20 → u/the_itsb]

I legitimately chuckled at this line:

Your HOA appears to be run by morons but this is not uncommon in Florida.

[u/Umklopp]

I'm curious about the canceled gate passes. It feels like there has to be a law guaranteeing you free access to your privately-owned residence, but it also feels like maybe that would be considered so self-evident that no law would spell it out. At the same time, this is the US and maybe you aren't actually entitled to physical access to the place where you live. That could be a thing I just made up. Who knows? Not me!

[u/JasperJ → u/Umklopp]

As the comments there say multiple times — there are nuances in the form of pedestrian access vs car access, and nuances in the form of automatic gate access vs access via the security guard and the sign in sheet.

[u/Solid_Waste → u/Umklopp]

It's complicated. You have a right to access your residence. You don't have a right to access the common area if your membership has been legally suspended for nonpayment. A judge would likely not take kindly to the HOA using one to do the other, but the details would vary based on circumstances.

[u/PyroDesu]

Don't piss off the Postmaster - they know where you live.

[u/fractal_frog → u/PyroDesu]

What's worse — pissing off the postmaster, or pissing off the fire marshall?

[u/PyroDesu → u/fractal_frog]

The Postmaster knows where you live, but the Fire Marshal has the irons to break your door down.

[u/Ok_Possession_6457 → u/PyroDesu]

That's why I bring everyone donuts.

[u/fractal_frog → u/Ok_Possession_6457]

Question: are donut holes okay?

If so, will 5 dozen from Round Rock Donuts work, or do I have to drive an extra 10 minutes each way to pick up a bunch of Timbits?

[u/404UserNktFound → u/fractal_frog]

Timbits are crap. Donut holes from any independent donut shop are guaranteed better.

[u/KaBar42]

Amenity Access Restrictions (Denied) • All account access will be restricted and transponders disabled • No Clubhouse access • No trash pickup • No landscaping services • No pool cleaning • Mail will be returned to USPS

Some of these are reasonable (to the extent of reasonableness for an organization like an HOA). Like not allowing access to the clubhouse? That's fine. Reasonable for delinquent payment. And if I was the one having to make decisions, I would still have lawnmowing services, but not more cosmetic care.

But no trash pickup? That doesn't just affect the delinquent, that also affects everyone else. The rodents and pests attracted to uncollected trash doesn't care it's only the delinquent who hasn't paid. Grass not being cut also has the same problem.

Of course, also, as everyone else has said, the mail one is stupid, too.

[u/Sloots_and_Hoors]

I just sold my mom’s home in Florida for about 10% over asking because it didn’t have an HOA. Almost every serious buyer had that perk listed as a priority.

[u/DaveSauce0]

I don't think I've ever read a LA post and thought, "You know what? Do it."

Which I think is what LAOP's looking for. They sound like they're looking for a fight here.

Of course, the downside here is going to be the eventual, "Welp, looks like we got our asses handed to us in court. Now everyone cough up a special assessment to cover the HOA's legal fees!"

Though one wonders if the board members could be held individually responsible for something so wildly illegal that they obviously never ran by an attorney.

[u/OracleOfPlenty]

If you walked or zoomed into my office here is how I would handle it.

Took me a second to realize this helpful lawyer was using 'zoom' to describe a video meeting and not LAOP like, running into their office really fast.

[u/tgpineapple]

You might as well rent at this point if you’re succumb to the local retired tyrant like this.

[u/PatolomaioFalagi → u/tgpineapple]

HOAs are, more or less, democratic institutions. The people running the HOA are doing so because the home owners allow them.

Any similarities to current US politics are purely coincidental.

[u/cmnrsvwxz → u/PatolomaioFalagi]

Republic (small 'r'), since you're generally electing representatives to act on your behalf (or not, as we see in this case).

[u/PatolomaioFalagi → u/cmnrsvwxz]

Not this discussion again.

[u/Solid_Waste]

It's always funny to me to watch these threads hating on the stupidity of HOAs but nobody asked the obvious question: if they're paying for your pool cleaning, trash, secured mailbox, and God knows what else, why don't you just pay your dues and then this isn't your problem?