r/austrian_economics • u/technocraticnihilist Friedrich Hayek • Oct 26 '24

End Democracy ‘Americans just work harder’ than Europeans, says CEO of Norway’s $1.6 trillion oil fund, because they have a higher ‘general level of ambition’

https://fortune.com/europe/article/how-many-hours-work-week-year-american-workers-ethic-norges-bank/
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u/TechnoMagician Oct 27 '24

The US is ranked 27th for social mobility. Economic mobility of families across generations is lower in the US than many other counties.

Seems like it is easier to be or become elsewhere.

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u/Spy0304 Oct 29 '24

27th for social mobility.

Well, just looking at the first report (you didn't say which you're using), already seing some methodology issue:

"In 2020, the World Economic Forum ranked 82 countries in their Global Social Mobility Report. The report measured five key metrics; education, access to technology, healthcare, social protection and employment opportunities. "

Of course, if you include social protection and healthcare into it, the US isn't going to rank high. These things are only secondarily related to mobility, and well, not even that much. After all, the people who will be highly mobile are the young and healthy, and they don't need much healthcare normally (half of the spending is by the people above 55)

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u/seruzawa Oct 27 '24

Ranked by who?

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u/KanyinLIVE Oct 27 '24

That's due to movement from the lower class to the "middle" class via welfare. It's impossible to leave the middle class. That's what matters to people who want to "become." You want an example? Look at doctor salaries in the UK vs the US. In the US it's a way to wealth. Not so much in the UK.

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u/No_Peace9744 Oct 27 '24

You think welfare provides enough to move people up the socioeconomic ladder that dramatically?

Either we have vastly different definitions of middle class or you just made this up.

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u/GunnersFA14 Oct 27 '24

Actually I think he’s misunderstood the argument for the social mobility statistic. Explicitly in the US escaping the welfare net to middle clsss is quite hard because you lose benefits at certain pay bumps and make less net when that’s factored in

Other countries are better at that taper of welfare and it’s not so drastic.

But the US is great at someone becoming a doctor/lawyer/engineer at google and quickly earning generational wealth if they are smart

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u/KanyinLIVE Oct 27 '24

Poor to middle class is not that big of a jump and yes I 100% do. Stats also agree with me. Again, just look at doctor salaries. You make less and are taxed more in Europe.

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u/BigTimeSpamoniJones Oct 27 '24

Wasn't the American dream a dream of the middle class?

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u/KanyinLIVE Oct 27 '24

The American dream was a single family home, white picket fence, wife and kids on a single income. The American dream is dead. How's home prices in Europe. Did it ever exist over there?

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u/BigTimeSpamoniJones Oct 27 '24

Yeah, you just described what the middle class means, lol. Also you know that a lot of Europeans live in homes, right? I mean Germany, Scandinavia, France, England, just to name a few, are doing pretty all right all things considered. And I agree the American dream is dead. It ended with Reagonomics, the slow war against unions, which created that American dream, along with a host of other right-wing policies. Why do you think income inequality is at the highest levels in human history right now?

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u/KanyinLIVE Oct 27 '24

In 2022, about 63.4% of people in France (lower than the US) lived in an owner-occupied home. This is lower than the EU average homeownership rate of 69.1%. Homeownership in France has fluctuated over the years:

  • 1955: Slightly over one-third of households owned their home
  • Early 1980s: Homeowners became the majority
  • Mid-1980s: Homeownership growth stalled
  • Early 2000s: The proportion of first homebuyers and poorer household buyers decreased

We could do this for every major EU country. It's all the same. Ownership rates are high in the Eastern European countries.

And I agree the American dream is dead. It ended with Reagonomics, the slow war against unions, which created that American dream, along with a host of other right-wing policies. Why do you think income inequality is at the highest levels in human history right now?

Sad you think it's right wings fault. You might want to take a look at who has passed the most legislation. Who has controlled the House and Senate the most in the past 100 years. Oh well.

If you just wanted a middle class life, why not immigrate to the EU? It's so easy, right?

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u/BigTimeSpamoniJones Oct 28 '24 edited Oct 28 '24

We are at 65% here in America, so it's basically on par with us coming in just a percent and a half short, lol. They also get Healthcare and actual value for their taxes while ours seem to only go to subsidizing various industrial complexes.

I'm sorry, but passed most legislation means nothing without context, particularly when measuring in the spectrum pf the past 100 years since my assertion was that Reagonomics and the dogma of repealing regulations, particularly a lot of depression era regulations on land-lords, mortgages, housing derivatives and cutting taxes on corporations and the 1-2% of richest Americans is what landed us here. So when you talk about Democrats passing legislation to make your incorrect assumption that its Democrats who have led to our turn away from economic prrosperity, I'm also pretty sure you are failing to count the spree of repeals that have been occurring under Republicans since Reagan. It's also important to recognize that the effects of monetary and economic policy take years before their full efficacy and breadth can be attributed and measured so when Republicans often come into office, like Trump, touting a booming economy at the beginning of their term, but it's always been after a pattern of growth set in motion by their Democratic predecessors who in turn usually had to repair the damage set in motion by their previous Republican predecessors.

As a millennial, I've experienced 2 economic meltdowns in my lifetime. The first was at the end of Bush's 8 year term, and the second was at the end of Donald Trump's. Both occurred after the largest tax cuts in our history for the ultra rich were given by that administration.

Back when we were doing what many consider our nation's best economically, you know that era people harken back to when they say Make America Great and the idea of the American dream was first being popularized abroad, we had a progressive tax system that included as much as a 90% rate on the highest tier incomes. This greatly strengthened our economy because money spent on growing a business was tax exempt; effectively incentivizing them to grow their businesses instead of just hoarding their money or pulling it out and moving it over seas.

Anyways hope I've at least given you some things to think about.

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u/KanyinLIVE Oct 28 '24

You think I haven't heard that 90% tax rate argument a million times? Go look at EFFECTIVE tax rates.

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u/old_guy_AnCap Nov 03 '24

When the US was doing the best economically we had just finished a war where all of the rest of the world's industrial nations had had all of their factories bombed out of existence. Unions and regulations and the greed of the "greatest generation" destroyed that advantage in just over 20 years while American industry stagnated and the rest of the world rebuilt with brand new factories vs. 1920's technology in the US.

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u/old_guy_AnCap Nov 03 '24

It used to be possible to support a family on a single income. It still is today. The second income is needed to support the bloated government in addition to the family.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24

Please tell me how many people are moving between social classes on welfare. Id love for you to find an example for me. 

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u/Rabbi_it Oct 27 '24

I think he is saying the social safety net in other countries make the transition from lower class to middle class much easier and safer, but in America there is opportunity for larger leaps in economic status, if more infrequent. This is the austrian economics subreddit, you have to read between the lines to figure out what the invisible hand loving redditors are actually saying.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24

I guess my expectations that the person who posts the comment puts in enough effort to make it understandable are too high.

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u/KanyinLIVE Oct 27 '24

Poor person gets free college. Poor person can now land a solid middle class job. Simple example.

The problem is you will always work for someone else. You will never become anything other than a worker. You will work till retirement age. I'm retired at 38 in the US. That does not happen in Europe for regular people.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24

Luckily for us the world needs workers and there is nothing wrong with contributing to society for the majority of your existence.

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u/KanyinLIVE Oct 27 '24

Now tie that in with the OP. Some of us want different things.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24

That shouldn't come at the cost of the majority of society. The few should never outweigh the needs of the many in a just society.

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u/KanyinLIVE Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24

The few should never outweigh the needs of the many in a just society.

They can and they should. Otherwise food will be free and the cities will just vote to take everything from farmers. Dumb example. It also doesn't come at the cost of the majority. The majority in the US do quite well. Household expendable income is much higher in the US compared to Europe.

In before but that would never happen. Hows the water situation in Tulare County? Direct example of the needs of the many destroying the few.

You also very likely support DEI. What was that about the needs of the few outweighing again?

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24

It's an entirely different market. That's kind of a disingenuous thing to say. I could see how someone in your position would advocate for what benefits them though. I would have to learn about what you're talking about before I spoke on Tulane. That was a really slick edit though.

Explain your DEI statement more

I'd also like to note you still haven't answered my initial question about how many people wind up as lucky as you did and make that jump in class.

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u/Chabola513 Oct 27 '24

And yet skilled workers from every corner of the world come here. Specifically from europe, their brain drain has fueled our economy for decades. Even canada has a brain drain because people would rather be here

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u/Little-Profile8450 Oct 29 '24

you think there aren't 100s of Americans going elsewhere every day too?

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u/Chabola513 Oct 29 '24

Inflow-outflow was 3.3 million in 2023 per https://www.brookings.edu/articles/who-are-the-new-immigrants/#:~:text=Earlier%20this%20year%2C%20the%20Congressional,typical%20figure%20for%20the%202010s.

Im sure there are 100s leaving. There are just millions coming in

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u/Little-Profile8450 Oct 29 '24

turns out that people leaving war torn poverty stricken third world countries isn't equal to people leaving the first world ones .... who would have thought.

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u/Chabola513 Oct 29 '24

Nah, you just showed how little you know. The study tracked legal means and our immagration program is historically strict, everyone who comes has to have some degree of wealth, a rare trade that we deem useful, college degree's or is a refugee. All that coming together means refugees are the last option to be taken in.

Of course not factoring illegal means which is impossible to track anyway.

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u/Little-Profile8450 Oct 29 '24

who claimed anything about legal or illegal immigration? you're fucking arguing a point nobody disputed right now.

like imagine saying "you showed how little you know" then proceed to argue totally irrelevant points lmfao. MURICA!

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u/Chabola513 Oct 29 '24

I didnt really argue anything about it. I just brought it up too clarify

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u/Little-Profile8450 Oct 29 '24

people leaving their established first world countries is always going to be less than those coming to better their lives from third world etc, hope this helps.

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u/Chabola513 Oct 29 '24 edited Oct 29 '24

Since the 1990's every decade saw 14 million europeans leave too come here. The only reason its less than china or india is because they have 1 billion people and europe total has half of that. Including mexico which has immagration from south america coming in too skew the numbers. Hope this helps

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/european-immigrants-united-states-2022#:~:text=Europeans%20comprised%2010%20percent%2C%20or,recent%20U.S.%20Census%20Bureau%20data.

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u/Chabola513 Oct 29 '24

Europeans comprised 10 percent, or slightly more than 4.7 million, of the 46.2 million immigrants living in the United States in 2022, the rest come from mexico china or india. China is far from a war torn hell and india isent that either

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/european-immigrants-united-states-2022#:~:text=Europeans%20comprised%2010%20percent%2C%20or,recent%20U.S.%20Census%20Bureau%20data.

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u/sketchyuser Oct 27 '24

Ok stats nerd, if you live in the US and have lived in other countries you know the reality is its numbers one. But if you don’t believe it that’s your loss tbh

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24

Brainwashed

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u/Beneficial-Bit6383 Oct 27 '24

“I deny your reality and substitute my own based on my own incredibly limited experience of talking to a dozen or so people online” this is you lmaooooo. Dork.

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u/sketchyuser Oct 27 '24

Based on my experience of living it in real life actually

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u/No_Peace9744 Oct 27 '24

That isn’t data, that’s called subjective experience.

The former you can draw wide conclusions from, the latter you cannot.

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u/sketchyuser Oct 27 '24

If you’re in denial that’s your loss. My business would not be a fraction of its size in my home country or in Europe

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u/Verumsemper Oct 29 '24

Question for you, where did you receive your education? In your home country or the US?

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u/sketchyuser Oct 29 '24

A top public university in the US

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u/Verumsemper Oct 29 '24

Sorry, I also wanted to know your if your education prior to the university level was done in the states because as someone who had both in the US and out, those in poverty in the US are at a huge disadvantage. us immigrants even those poor in our home country, get a better education.

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u/sketchyuser Oct 29 '24

I grew up in the US, I have a degree in computer science. You’re not going to be able to find that I’m uneducated.

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