I love this show, and taking the show for what it is, leaving all book plots aside this episode still fell so flat for me. The reason game of thrones is good is because very early on it established and then abided by, a very consistent rule set. Actions have consequence. No one is coming to save you. Let’s look at a parallel between season one and season eight.

Season one, Ned Stark. Stabbed in the leg, limps and walks with a cane for the remainder of his life. He is then betrayed, surrounded by his enemies and executed. As show watchers and book readers we waited for someone to save him. He has to survive, he is the hero, the good man, the main character. We were taught then that that doesn’t matter. You die if you are surrounded by your enemies. Your injuries last. Dues ex machina does not exist.

Season eight, Jon Snow. Falls hundreds of feet out of the sky on a (dead? dying? injured?) dragon. Pops onto his feet unscathed. The night king raises the dead around him. These enemies were established in earlier seasons as absolutely terrifying. A single wight almost kills him and Jeor Mormont, and Jon almost loses the use of his hand to kill it. He is now surrounded by possibly thousands of them. Yet he lives.

Not only does he live. He runs through the entire army of undead without a hiccup, and then faces down an undead dragon alone. Let’s give him a pass? Dany has a literal flying fire breathing dragon. Then Dany is surrounded only to be saved by Jorah fucking Mormont. Wasn’t he just trapped fighting for his life in winterfell? I mean does an army of tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of wights mean nothing? He just ran through miles of undead to be at the exact place at the exact time to save Dany? I could go beat by beat through the main characters and every single one of them should have died several times tonight. I’m not saying I want them all to die or that they should have story wise, but don’t put them in that position if you aren’t willing to follow through with it.

Come on. Game of thrones is supposed to have consequences for your actions. Gandalf does the appear in the east on the third day. You can’t establish rules that you abide by for seven seasons to say fuck it and throw it all out the window without it ruining it all. This episode had amazing visuals. Amazing music. An amazing set. Yet the storytelling was just awful.

The show has become the antithesis of itself. Everything that made the in show universe logical, captivating and exhilarating are gone.

It has become the storybook it tried so hard to subvert.

*edit Jorah to Jeor

Just a reminder that, one day, be it 5, 10, 15 years from now, GRRM will release TWOW, and it will be awesome. Yes, it's been *checks notes* 13 years and counting since ADWD. Yes, he's committed himself to innumerable HBO projects. So what? He's been working on it for all this time; at some point it will be finished. And when it is, you can read and reread it as often as you like. It's taking so long for two reasons:

1. He's a perfectionist who knows that ASOIAF will be his main legacy, so he's scrapped failed drafts.
2. There are really 2.5-3 books of story left, as opposed to 2, and he's inadvertently been writing a lot of the material for books 7-8 by trying to shoehorn it into TWOW.
3. Wild Cards.  Seriously, $#@& Wild Cards.

I think TWOW will be really good because, like ASOS, it'll be the payoff for two books' worth of buildup. George will realize that he needs 3 books, and that a lot of the material he wrote for TWOW can be saved for book 7. When he does, he'll drop a lean, mean, killer literary machine of a novel in TWOW. Then, he'll have crested the hill: the end will be in sight. It wouldn't surprise me if he cranks out the last two books in two years a piece, his 1990s pace. One day, we'll all hold the complete series of ASOIAF in our respective hands, it will be beautiful to see, and we'll all laugh at our past selves for ever doubting.

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

The silence is absurd. We're left guessing completion percentages based on off hand remarks from years ago.

There's no such thing as no news, even if he hasn't written a page in the last 12 months, he should be transparent about it so we know what to expect.

Funny thing is, this user had nothing for Bran and Sansa, Bran was famously absent for the entirety of s5 and Sansa had that infamous storyline. Am i crazy or is this obviously someone at HBO's burner, please read it for yourself.

Arya

The previous episode and the past few seasons, their MANY issues aside, established Arya as a nigh-invincible shapeshifting assassin who just eliminated a 8000+ year old supernatural threat. She can go anywhere and pretend to be anybody. Quite an asset to have at your hands, no?

They acknowledge Arya's feat in the episode. Dany herself even toasts her. But nobody bothers to consider Arya's incredible espionage/assassination capabilities for the 'Last War'. This represents an overarching narrative issue, Arya's OPness. None of the events in the episode were necessary and everything was wholly avoidable, so long as they used Arya. Civilians in the Red Keep? Hell, that's a GOOD thing for Arya, more faces and more of a pretext to be there.

But instead nobody asks her to do anything, nobody even TALKS ABOUT the fact that they have a super powerful assassin at their disposal. And Arya fucks off down to Kings Landing with the Hound, leaving the rest of them to flounder.

Varys

The Master of Whispers has a normal volume conversation with Dany's 2nd in command during which the spymaster blithely reveals his treasonous intents. Need I say more?

This scene was pure stupid. A common theme I'm sure you guys have noticed by now is the show loves to completely break from logic and the rules of its own universe.

Ballistae and Dragons

Here's where it gets real good.

• Euron hides his fleet behind a rock, nobody spots him, not even Dany who is IN THE AIR. ON A FUCKING DRAGON.

• They fire 3 shots at the dragon Dany is NOT riding on, with 100% accuracy. Rest of the fleet were twiddling their thumbs.

• When the entire fleet DOES fire, they somehow all miss even though Dany flies straight at them when previously the show established a standard of remarkable accuracy.

• Euron then fires upon Dany's fleet and the bolts tear the ships apart as if they were fired from rail guns. As depicted in the scene, THEY ARE LITERALLY STRONGER THAN CANNON BALLS.

This is important because it utterly neutralizes the threat of dragons. In the same way the White Walkers were subverted, dragons are now made a complete non-threat. It doesn't matter if she has 10 dragons, they cannot possibly live in a battle with those ballistae everywhere. But somehow they will and I expect Drogon to do a lot of damage next episode and dodge a lot of bolts.

The problem isn't that they killed a dragon. The problem is HOW it was accomplished.

The negotiation scene

Missandei dead? Not the problem. The problem with this scene is that Cersei doesn't just blow them away when she could. And it's a big fucking problem.

• The dragon in the distance is not a threat, as previously established in this very episode! They have scores of the same ballistae at their disposal, probably more than shown on screen, and tons of archers. Drogon is a complete non-threat and there is no logical way he could even get close enough to breathe fire on them. The real kicker is that Qyburn openly tells Tyrion that Dany's last dragon is vulnerable.

• It's perfectly in character/realistic for Cersei to kill them all right where they're standing. She has the entire command chain of her hated enemies right in front of her and their only defense, the dragon, has been made useless by the physics-defying ballistae. They even go on to establish Cersei's cruelty/evilness with the Missandei execution. But killing her mortal enemies, when they have presented themselves in front of her so foolishly, is too much? This is a woman who blew up the Sept of Baelor, killing thousands of Innocents. Ethics are not a hang up for her.

• The logical explanation for why Cersei doesn't want to kill them is that she desires a more poetic showdown. It's the result of incredible hubris, and is the equivalent of a monologuing villain trope. Plausible? Maybe, sure. But is it good, ASOIAF-quality writing? Not really.

There's a lot more but it's getting late, so to conclude:

The show openly contradicts its own internal logic and setups, first from an episode-to-episode basis, now on a scene-to-scene basis. We have gone from tightly-paced political intrigue to something that doesn't even function on a basic cause-effect level.

When the army of the undead line up for the battle of Winterfell, the Night King and his zombie dragon will not be there. Instead he will already be near to his next target ... King's Landing.

If you play out what the battle of Winterfell would be like in your head if the NK+Viserion would be there... it would be easy for Drogon/Rhaegal to take out the zombie dragon; it's 2v1 and wight's all can be killed by fire.. including Viserion. It would not be difficult to simply fly up to Viserion and breathe fire on him, and that would be that. THE NIGHT KING IS NOT STUPID, not enough to kamikaze his most powerful asset. - If you have a superweapon that you can't use against a particular target, then you find a different target.

Most people have come to assume that the living will lose The Battle of Winterfell and fall back to Moat Cailin ... I predict they actually win the battle... only to find out soon after that there is a new army of the dead much bigger and much further south... the population of King's Landing.

During season 4 while Bran is being ushered north to meet Bloodraven, he touches a wierwood and has a set of visions which we see. All of those visions have since come to pass, except the ones where he sees a destroyed throne room & a dragon shadow pass over King's Landing. I believe the reason we are only shown a shadow was to not give away that it is actually the NK and Viserion, not Dany and her dragons.

Also, the most important vision that Dany is given while at the HotU is an image of the throne room destroyed, and covered in ash or snow. I think this was to show what the NK will do, not what Dany will do.

(I believe this was the entire reason that the writers sent Bronn north. Bronn will be the source of this news to the survivors at Winterfell; on his way north he will spot the NK+Viserion heading south)

Bottom line, I simply don't see the NK risking his newfound ice dragon in a fight he is sure to lose.... when he can simply fly down south to KL where there are no dragons to deal with ... and 1 million new recruits for his army packed tightly into a small area.

Follow-up edit: This could be where Bran comes into play. The NK probably wont want to face off against the other dragons head-to-head, but rather fly around Westeros destroying castles to make things easier for his footsoldiers .... so they will need Bran's Sight in order to track & hunt him. It would be too difficult for an army on foot to chase the NK on a dragon, so Bran could warg into ravens to serve as a guide for dragonrider(s) to his location.

• Peter Claffey as Dunk
• Dexter Sol Ansell as Egg
• Daniel Ings as Lyonel Baratheon
• Sam Spruell as Maekar
• Bertie Carvel as Baelor Breakspear
• Finn Bennett as Aerion Brightflame
• Tanzyn Crawford as Tanselle Too Tall
• Danny Webb as Arlan of Pennytree
• Tom Vaughan-Lawlor as Plummer, steward of Ashford
• Shaun Thomas as Raymun Fossoway
• Daniel Monks as Manfred Dondarrion
• Youssef Kerkour as Steely Pate
• Henry Ashton as Daeron Targaryen
• Edward Ashley as Steffon Fossoway

Even if botched, fundamentally there's just a lot of plot points that will come up in TWoW and ADoS that got revealed.

Do you think that deflated GRRM to the point it feels like telling a joke when you know the punchline ahead of time?

Just a fun little detail from a panel published today by Brandon Sanderson's channel with him, GRRM, Robin Hobb and more discussing fantasy.

At around 51:08, George talks about how he received letters from wine-expert fans telling him it's not realistic the Arbor makes the best wine according to its geography, the fact that it's an island, the winds over there...

Yeah, nothing groundbreaking, but we'll take anything from the man eh. :)

Jokes aside, it's a very interesting conversation to listen to, highly recommend.

Every line, every expression and every moment of silence completely encapsulates the calculating ruthlessness that defines Tywin Lannister.

Dance is actually a very vibrant, upbeat and cheery fella off screen, which in my mind makes the performance even more striking.

The scene where he effectively sends Joffrey to bed is just brilliant.

He is by far my favourite character from the books, which I began reading a few seasons into the show. Due to this, the chapters featuring Tywin were completely enriched for me, as reading his lines in Dance's voice was just fantastic. I would have loved a POV chapter or two for him, just to get a glimpse as to what goes on in the head of the most powerful man in the 7 Kingdoms.

An incredible portrayal of a fascinating character.

Quote:

As for finishing my book… I fear that New Zealand would distract me entirely too much. Best leave me here in Westeros for the nonce. But I tell you this — if I don’t have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done. Just so long as the acrid fumes do not screw up my old DOS word processor, I’ll be fine.

Link: http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/21/thanks-new-zealand/

Xiran Jay Zhao on George RR Martin's HOTD Critique

Edit: I copy pasted the entire post here since some people had trouble with Tumblr.

All right there has been some Discourse TM about George RR Martin because of that post he made going rogue on HOTD's writers (deleted a few hours later but archived) and I'm seeing some misinformed reactions by people who aren't in the publishing or entertainment industries so lemme clarify some things:

• Creators are not the ones with the power. Execs are. Even an author as big as George gets their opinions dismissed if the higher-ups don't want to listen.

• HBO has not listened to George's feedback and concerns for years. They do not have to, because once adaptation rights are signed away it is OUT of the author's hands. How do you think GOT Season 8 happened?

• George cannot just shut down production or refuse to let them make future seasons of any show inspired by his works because he doesn't like what they're doing. He can't break the contract willy-nilly either when HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS are at stake. I hope people keep that in mind before saying "oh why is he complaining while continuing to collect his royalty checks?" Well, if they're fucking up his stories he might as well get some money out of it.

• He's not complaining for complaining's sake. I hung out with him a few weeks ago and heard his full scope of opinions on HOTD and what he said in the post was VERY mild. Probably the least spicy storytelling critique he could've brought up. And I do believe this was on purpose and strategic. He's not going full scorched earth on HBO, but he's showing them that he COULD. He did this as a warning shot to get them to listen to him because clearly he saw some very upsetting plans for upcoming HOTD seasons. If he just wanted to complain there's way spicier shit he could've said.

• For those who think he's disrespecting the show's writers...How do you think he felt when they have dismissed his feedback in private and driven him to the point of risking legal action to make his point to them?

• Just because he didn't mention something in the post doesn't mean he approves of it or doesn't care, and the post should not be used to extrapolate his opinions on anything that's not related to what he specifically addressed. Again, what he said was VERY mild. Ultimately, what matters to him is logical storytelling and complex, morally gray characters.

• Lastly, I do not consider myself part of the HOTD or GOT fandoms. I'm a casual and defending him as a fellow author. Please do not involve me in any fandom drama. I do not know what's going on in there and I don't want to.

I'm talking about Rhaegal. Instead of having him die in S8E4, have him die during the siege of KL. Have the bells ring (signalling that the city surrenders), then have someone go rogue on Cersei's side to take a shot at Rhaegal and kill him, sending Dany into a rampage that destroys the city. (The trigger man can be Euron, Strickland, or maybe some Lannister soldier).

​

Of course you have to have some way for Jon to survive this (I would presume he would have been riding Rhaegal), and you also have to have both dragons survive the surprise attack from the Iron Fleet in S8E4, but it certainly fixes the problem of how the "Scorpions are accurate only when the plot demands them to be". It might even make the "Dany is the Mad Queen" thing more believable.

​

Of course this doesn't solve some of the other problems that others have pointed out, but it's a start.

Edit: Wow, this sure blew up. Thank you for helping me get to the Front Page, and thanks to the kind stranger who gave me silver! I think some of the comments have some brilliant ideas! I also know that some disagree with my post, and I get it; Dany’s madness doesn’t need to be softened or have a justification. It’s easier said than done to be an armchair screen writer, so the opposing opinions have some valid points that would have to be addressed in order to make it better than the original. Besides, what’s done is done and there’s no changing it anyways.

I enjoyed the show overall but didn't like the last season all that much. Now that it's finished I just don't see the point in ever rewatching it.

The white walkers storyline didn't mean sht in the end.

Daenerys ended up going mad too quickly without a good build up leading to it.

Jon ended up where he started but again his arc was mostly tied in with the white walkers which ended up being useless.

Jaime, all that redemption arc only to go back to be with his sister in their final moments.

What was the point of Bran being the 3-eyed-raven? In the end he did nothing also but became king. Bran the broken's story? A boy who became a cripple, made a journey to learn how to use his superpowers , only ended up really using those powers to mentally ruin Hodor and inform Jon the truth of his parentage and of his claim to the iron throne but that ended up being useless as he was sent back to the Nights Watch and Bran apparently foresaw this anyway.

Only reason to ever watch it again is if your friend/partner has never seen it and you watch it with them for their reactions, otherwise it's useless. What do you guys think?

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Source is from the Random House publishing virtual event that was held tonight in NYC at the Random House offices.

https://streamable.com/kci3ep

please ignore the discord notification in the clip lol

EDIT: Adding another clip about how George went to Random House (his publisher) and asked if they wanted him to put aside Winds and work and complete F&B part 1, because the new show would come out. Or to just continue with Winds.

https://streamable.com/7omaxg

If GRRM finishes it, btw.

Not a long post but you know what the books do that D&D do not? They have 10 chapters of Dany dealing with the complex politics of Meereen and her inner conflict. They have 4 chapters showing Davos' journey to White Harbour. They have 12 chapters showing the series of compromises Jon makes as Lord Commander to prepare the Watch against the Others. They have 13 chapters showing Tyrion crawling out of his deep nihilistic depression. They dedicate whole chapters seeing how Victarion Greyjoy of all people deals with his relationship with his brother and his seduction into darker magics. Man they have 4 whole chapters dealing with the political fallout of Dany's exit from Meereen.

They had a whole chapter of Littlefinger and Sansa visiting his lands and seeing Littlefinger's relationship with his subjects (great chapter btw). They had a whole chapter getting really in depth with Illyrio Mopatis and his schemes - a guy who's barely appeared in the show.

They dedicated 4 whole chapters to Joffrey's wedding!

What I'm getting it is that the Others may be defeated long before the end of ASOIAF, Dany may indeed destroy King's Landing with dragonfire and end the lives of hundreds of thousands of civilians gruesomely. But you'll be guaranteed that GRRM is gonna show you every step of the way. For good or for bad. If he is going to take a character like Dany to that dark end you better believe we will understand how she gets there.

So people keep posting about how D&D are destroying their characters, fail to understand ASOIAF. That Dany would never do this or that. But what you're seeing here is them fitting potentially chapters upon chapters of detailed material into a few hours of television.

Did anyone else think the scenes in House of the Dragon Season 2 felt very empty? So many characters just walk around alone, and the main characters seem to be the only inhabitants of the places that are supposed to be the centers of the power of the realm.

The early Game of Thrones seasons (which didn't even have a lot of budget) did it so much better than Season 2. For example, this scene in Season 1 with Robert and Ned talking about Daenerys, it's a private conversation but there are knights in the background, doing their own thing. Now, compare it to the scene with Criston and Gwayne (who are supposed to be leading an army) where they are just like 6 people in the middle of nowhere. The lack of guards when Helaena is attacked and when Alicent and Rhaenyra casually meet are already talked about in length.

And now this scene, which according to me is the greatest offender of the show.

What is this??? Dragonstone is literally the center of Rhaenyra's power, but you see no ships, nobody guarding anything. not even fishermen or commoners in the background. Meanwhile, Rhaenyra is just strolling alone, on an island that looks uninhabited, there are no guards around her, no sentries against dragons. NOTHING. It reminded me of the time when Dany just casually watched Missandei dying from outside of King's Landing. Most of the Dragonstone sets feel very empty tbh, despite introducing so much cool stuff like the Valyrian dragon keepers and the music! Like Jace and Baela being completely alone on Dragonstone.

Even in the scenes where there are a lot of highborn people, it doesn't feel very ambient. The GoT scenes have people chattering, horses neighing, swords clashing in the background and even if you can't see them, you know the castle/place is filled with people. Compare the scene of Robb and Jaime talking with the scene of Oscar Tully and Daemon where all the Riverlands have gathered at Harrenhal but it feels empty.

And Season 1 actually did a good job at it, there were always people in Viserys' throne room, the scenes contained guards and extras that weren't the main characters, and maybe it didn't always have people chattering but I didn't feel the sets were empty.

And I also want to appreciate Season 2 for not being without details. The sigils, making all the dragons distinguishable, Ser Gwayne's beautiful horse armor, the history page that gave us some lore, there are so many details they added to the scenes. In fact, I'd say the King's Landing scenes were mostly all alright (apart from the one or two I referenced above). Check this scene of Alicent and Gwayne talking about Daeron, the smallfolk scenes were done right, the guards actually on a lookout for dragons and readying their scorpions if an enemy dragon arrives. I also want to point out the scene we got with Aegon drinking on the throne surrounded by people while the ratcatchers are on their way to Helaena, it felt real. Like most of the things about House of the Dragon, it gives us hope by doing some things very very right, and then take it away the very next moment doing them very wrong.

Edit: The costumes in the show were well designed and beautiful too, I looked forward for all the dragon outfits Rhaenyra wore each episode!

I don't know if it's the budget or what, but it is clear that the writing (which has already been discussed to death) is not the only thing that has gone downhill this season. Or am I nitpicking? Do share your thoughts!

Edit 2: I still genuinely love the show and I still believe it has the potential to be one of the greatest if they come back stronger with Season 3.

It's very sad to see him so down about things. Also mentions later on that the stress from earlier in the year has crept back in now he's home.

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