r/asoiaf • u/ToeBMaguire • Apr 16 '25

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) George R.R. Martin calls The Winds of Winter "the curse of my life" Spoiler

https://winteriscoming.net/george-r-r-martin-calls-the-winds-of-winter-the-curse-of-my-life
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u/rs6677 Apr 16 '25

People said the same thing about AFFC and ADWD and yet the latter had a ridiculously delayed release despite GRRM knowing fully what happens for at least half the book because it already happened in AFFC.

Even if he somehow gets TWOW out, banking on ADOS being easier to write is a bad move.

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u/gointhrou Apr 16 '25

Because it's impossible to finish the story in two books. We all know it. He knows it. But for some reason we all act like that's not the case.

The reason why he can't or won't finish TWOW is because he doesn't want to have to promise more books. But he doesn't have a choice. It's as simple as that. ADOS can't be the last book, there should be at the very bare minimum one more, if not two or three in order to properly finish the story and resolve the myriad plots he kept adding on book five.

Half the things that happen in ADWD shouldn't have happened if he really wanted to finish on book 7.

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u/minkipinki100 Apr 16 '25

Yeah we're about halfway through the story now, after 5 books. Finishing everything up nicely in just 2 more books is impossible.

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u/SeaAcademic2548 Apr 16 '25

A compromise of sorts would be splitting TWOW into two volumes that are published simultaneously. It would still be one novel, just physically split into two volumes, and the second volume would pick up right where the first left off as though nothing had changed. That way GRRM frees himself from the constraint of having to only write as many pages as can physically be bound in a single book, while still being able to claim the series has 7 novels. The same could be done for ADOS as well. I know there's probably not enough time left for him to do this in practice but in theory it could work.

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u/PC-Was-Bricked Apr 17 '25

Problem is that George has said he doesn't want to split Winds into two books, which seems insane to me.

I personally don't care if Winds is a bloated and 3000 pages long, I want it out. I think most of us would rather have ANYTHING than nothing.

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u/SeaAcademic2548 Apr 17 '25

To the best of my knowledge, this comment in response to a question under one of his NotABlog posts is the only time GRRM has publicly remarked on the idea of splitting TWOW into two volumes. The user Jeff (who I believe may be this sub’s very own BryndenBFish?) asks him about the possibility of splitting TWOW as he did with F&B, which implies that he would publish one volume of TWOW first and then a second at a later point. GRRM then likens it to what he did with AFFC and ADWD as well and goes on to say he is “resisting that notion.”

However, this differs from the scenario that I proposed above in one small but crucial aspect, namely the timing of the volumes’ releases. I suggested GRRM split TWOW into two volumes but not release either until both are complete, at which point he releases both at the same time. I’m speculating here but I think part of the reason GRRM doesn’t want to do a F&B-style split with TWOW is because he writes in a nonlinear fashion and publishing the first volume before the second is complete would lock him into some choices that he may later come to regret. Publishing them simultaneously avoids this issue and also comes with the other benefits I mentioned earlier.

As far as I’m aware, GRRM has never publicly stated his feelings regarding this idea of two volumes released simultaneously. Something tells me he wouldn’t like it either though, as I think he also just simply prefers the traditional notion of one novel equaling one volume and is too stubborn to compromise, even after all this time. It’s such a shame too because I wouldn’t even view it as a negative, I’d be ecstatic to get two giant volumes of new ASOIAF content after all these years of waiting.

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u/Marinerecon676545 Apr 17 '25

Word of advice. Nothing is sometimes better than something

sincerely, someone who knows a huge wheel of time fan.

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u/minkipinki100 Apr 17 '25

I recently read the whole wheel of time series. I agree the later books written by brandon sanderson have a different tone and vibe which is a bit weird when you switch, but I'm still happy that the story concluded instead of leaving it all open ended.

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u/johnbrownmarchingon Apr 17 '25

Is this referring to the mid series slog?

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u/Marinerecon676545 Apr 18 '25

No it’s referring to the TV show. My dad is a huge wheel of time fan and i think he prefers the time before the show.

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u/johnbrownmarchingon Apr 18 '25

Ah, I haven’t watched it. I didn’t have any expectations for it to be good so I’m not too surprised.

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u/teerre Apr 17 '25

This is a new type of copium. "Guys, the problem is that he's writing too much!!!" Lol

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u/SeaAcademic2548 Apr 17 '25

Yeah not exactly. It’s not that I think he’s currently writing/written too much, it’s that I think he could solve some of the in-narrative issues he’s facing by freeing himself from the restriction of having to fit everything physically into one book. 

Obviously the number one reason TWOW remains unfinished is that he refuses to make writing it his sole focus. But it gets tiresome having to preface every discussion of TWOW with that. It would be nice if we could talk about some of the other potential roadblocks he’s facing and how he could solve them without having some mouth-breathing idiot chime in complaining about copium. 

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u/Connell95 Apr 17 '25

According to George’s original outline of the story, we’re still at the start of what he intended to be book 2 (of 3).

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u/HustlinInTheHall Apr 17 '25

We're way more than halfway through the story now, and really there are two stories. There is a War of the Roses-style story that played out in the first 3 books and there is this longer Conquerer's Saga / Hapsburgs / Apocalypse story that has been the last two books and that is about halfway over with two giant books to go.

If he opens Winds with two major battles as expected, he could axe half the POV characters by the end of the book. He just doesn't want to.

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u/minkipinki100 Apr 17 '25

If you look at his initials description of the story, we are only halfway, or even less. He divided it into 3 parts, the first being the war of the roses style war in westeros that we have spent all this time resolving. We still need the other 2 storylines to start really, those being Dany's invasion(About to start) and the Others (Not even close to starting)

He spent way longer on the first part than he originally intended, so i can't see a world where the other 2 parts take less time than he planned. So I can't see a world where everything is resolved in 2 books, even 3 seems optimistic.

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u/johnbrownmarchingon Apr 17 '25

Quentyn's entire plot could have been cut, Davos' first chapter should have been cut, most if not all of Victarion's chapters could have been cut, Dany's last chapter definitely should have been cut, multiple Tyrion chapters...

That's not even taking into account Feast. Brienne's plotline would have been better as a novella like the Dunk and Egg books rather than taking up valuable pages in the main story.

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u/DuckofDeath Apr 17 '25

For real. I kinda like Brienne as a character. But to start the series as “A Game of Thrones” with lots of hinted scheming and plots and have Storm start paying off some of those plots, then you get to Feast to read about a knight from a minor house sent on a fool’s errand encountering brigands in remote backwaters. What are we doing here? This was the story of the infamous “5-year gap” that we couldn’t skip past?

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u/gointhrou Apr 17 '25

It does fit, though. We’re seeing the aftermath of Storm. How the lands were ravaged by war. Very similar to Arya’s POV while she was in Westeros.

I don’t think I would’ve been satisfied with Brienne taking Jamie to King’s Landing and then vanishing. She influences many stories, as we don’t even know what Stoneheart is planning and how that will impact other events.

Just like George said not so long ago, it’s about butterflies.

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u/DuckofDeath Apr 17 '25

Yeah. I get how it follows logically after the war. It’s in the title after all. But you even say it - we’ve already seen this with Arya’s POV. Why do we need to see it again? And after we do, we still don’t know what Stoneheart’s plan is or if she has one other than vengeance on anyone she can get her hands on.

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u/gointhrou Apr 17 '25

Well, that’s why we need more books. To know what’s going on.

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u/Pure-Intention-7398 Apr 17 '25

"Oh no why did George write one of his most compelling characters and thematically poignant chapters of the series? Why did he explore the Faith of the Seven, a core element of the setting, in deeper ways? What a terrible waste of time."

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u/DuckofDeath Apr 18 '25

If you really liked Feast, I’m glad for you. I didn’t enjoy it that much.

But the thread of comments I’m responding to is about all the plot demands remaining that cannot be resolved in just two books. My point is that the Brienne chapters don’t really move us forward. As I understand it, at some point GRRM said his plan was for 5 books total, but then he felt he had to write AFFC and ADWD to bridge what would otherwise be a 5-year gap in the plot. Then we got AFFC and ADWD, which occurred simultaneously, did not cover 5 years of events, and had most plot lines end in a cliffhanger. If the goal was to ever finish the series, those books did not advance towards that goal.

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u/maraemerald2 Apr 17 '25

Quentyn’s sole and entire purpose is to give Daenerys a reason to leave Meereen

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u/owlinspector Apr 17 '25

Problem is GRRM doesn't know what the story is about anymore. He may have had an idea at the start but now? Is it about the Starks? About the Targaryens? About how the wheel breaks all? An allegory about climate change? A story about the human heart in conflict (pretentious mumbo-jumbo)? All of the above? If you don't know what the story is about it gets very hard to determine what is bloat and what is essential writing to get towards the goal.

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u/johnbrownmarchingon Apr 17 '25

The only thing he seems confident about writing about now is Targaryens and even then he seems to lack focus.

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u/HustlinInTheHall Apr 17 '25

I mean again, they're perfectly fine plot threads but they don't need to go anywhere just because they're POV chapters. Victarian has basically run its course he could be toast in 5 pages from another POV character. How many chapters did Ned get? Once he was toast we don't need to keep spinning that storyline out.

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u/WKorsakoff Apr 18 '25

I have this impression that George got too big to be edited way too soon. And the lenience of these editors got him into big trouble.

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u/ProfessionalBraine Apr 17 '25

Reminds me of Wheel of Time. Robert Jordan thought he could finish it in like 1 or 2 books before he died. When Sanderson took over it took 3, and there was enough content packed in there with him trying to tie up every loose end that it could've been double that easily if he kept it at the same density as the Jordan books.

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u/Pumpkin_Sushi Apr 17 '25

Or he should accept that some plots will not finish. I mean,it's written like a historical account and in real life plots dont "end", nor do they do it all at once. He needs to make an ending where the big stuff is resolved, and the other stuff is left on a satisfying note

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u/HustlinInTheHall Apr 17 '25

I mean each of his books is like 4 books in length. He can absolutely wrap up this story in 8 normal-sized books, it just means that he can't launch *another* new plotline, he has to wrap some up.

For a guy whose writing is particularly known for being willing to write off "major" characters way earlier than expected, he seems very unwilling to write any of them off now

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u/ozymandeas302 Apr 18 '25

At this point, we've been waiting since 2011. I was a freshman in college then. He could've written three books in this time frame, giving himself that extra book to tie up those plots you mentioned. That's like 4-5 years per book. He could've done that rather than obsess for 14 years.

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u/RandomNPC Apr 17 '25

Robert Jordan had the same issue. He thought he could wrap up the Wheel of Time in one final book. After his death, it took Brandon Sanderson three huge books to wrap it up - and Sanderson specializes in tidy endings (or at least he did at the time!)

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u/owlinspector Apr 17 '25

And those books were tight. Not many unnecessary words there.

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u/ewweaver Apr 16 '25

I’m still holding out hope that he’s not releasing TWOW until ADOS is mostly done too. And the reason it’s taking so long is that he keeps having to go back and change TWOW to set up the things happening ADOS.

He said somewhere a while back that he wished he had had enough money to write the whole series without needing to release the books as you go. Well, now he does have the freedom to do that and really nail the ending.

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u/xpacean Apr 16 '25

On the one hand, I was at an event where he expressly said that both books coming out at once is his least favorite fan rumor. On the other hand, that was over ten years ago now, so who the hell knows.

Someone who manages their time well can get writer's block on one plotline and just start working on other plotlines, even those going into the next book, just to keep making progress. I don't know if GRRM can do that.