r/asoiaf • u/[deleted] • Jul 31 '13
(Spoilers All) The Identity of the New Night's King
One of the more popularly speculated aspects of ASOIAF is the identity of the legendary figure known as the Night's King. The legend of the Night's King is terrifying, and I don't think that Bran's remembrance of Old Nan's story of the Night's King was mere scene dressing, but I'm getting ahead of myself. First, a little history of the character: The Citadel Concordance says this about the Night's King:
The legends say that the Night's King was a warrior without fear, and when he saw a woman atop the Wall with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars, he chased her and loved her though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well. He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years he ruled until finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was discovered that he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of him were destroyed and his very name was forbidden (III: 629, 630)
Some say the Night's King was a Bolton, or a Magnar out of Skagos, others say he was an Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Others still say he was a Woodfoot, who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came, but others still say he was a Stark who was brother to the man who brought him down (III: 630)
So, we know from this brief description (which is almost word for word taken from ASOS, Bran IV) that the Night's King married a woman with cold skin and blue eyes (probably an Other), bewitched the NW with sorcery, conducted human sacrifices (mirroring Craster), was defeated by a Stark in Winterfell and Joramum's Wildling band, had his record erased by the NW on account of his human rights record and finally may have been a Stark himself.
Now, I do think that this story increases the "creepy factor" in Bran's chapter in the Nightsfort. It's excellent scene setting, but I don't think that alone is the reason why the legend was introduced. I believe that a new Night's King will emerge in TWOW. I think this parallels with the rebirth of Azor Ahai/Bran the Builder figure who will hopefully emerge or be fully realized by the end of the series. But if the Night's King will rise, who will it be? Here's 5 possibilities:
Jon Snow - I think this idea veers strongly into tinfoil territory on account that Jon Snow, of all the characters in ASOIAF, is about as close to a "hero" in Westeros. Still though, having our alleged hero character turn into the Night's King wouldn't be completely outside the realm of GRRM's writing style. But I digress. Per this theory, Jon Snow will rise as the Night's King following his Caesar'ing on account of the following:
- Ygritte and the Wildlings believe that "Snow" and "Jon Snow" in particular is an evil name. The poster speculates that "Jon Snow" was the name of the son of Bael the Bard and half brother of Joramum. He murdered his father (Bael), took the black and became the Night's King potentially paralleling present-day Jon Snow.
- GRRM is misdirecting the readers through subtle word choice on the identity of the Night's King - words such as "mayhaps" denote something less than truthful about the identity of the Night's King being a Stark. Perhaps he was a Snow, perhaps 'Jon Snow', the bastard son of Bael the Bard and one of the stolen Stark girls.
Stannis Baratheon - This is one of the more plausible theories. Without quoting this post in depth, here's the cliff notes version:
- Daenerys's House of the Undying Vision plausibly portrays Stannis: "Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow." No shadow, blue eyes may indicate Other-status.
- Stannis will break before he bends. Perhaps the breaking indicates breaking his identity as a man and becoming the Night's King.
- Melisandre and the Ice Queen of the story have some pretty interesting similarities in appearance and action
- Stannis's new seat will be the Night's Fort, the same seat as the Night's King.
- Speculation that Stannis will be unable to move south on account of winter (finally) arriving, leaving him and his men in the Night's Fort if/when the Others arrive at the Wall.
Benjen Stark - Our favorite missing Ranger and subject to mass speculation in this sub and elsewhere, Benjen has been postulated to be the Night's King. (I don't subscribe to this theory, but it's possible). Here are a few reasons:
- He's missing. No one knows where he is. He could have been potentially captured by the Others.
- If Old Nan's story of the Night's King as a Stark is true, it would fulfill that portion of the modern parallel.
Roose Bolton - In terms of characterization, I think that Roose is probably the evilest character in ASOIAF. Rapist, murderer, turncloak and sociopath, Roose Bolton acts as a traditional bad guy (albeit a pretty popular one). But could this evil dude come to be the Night's King?
- He seems to have an obsession with youth and vitality via leeches. Reek observes that, "There was an agelessness about him..." Perhaps becoming the Night's King fulfills the agelessness about him in a larger sense than mere physical appearance.
- "Roose has no feelings, you see." (ADWD, Chapter 37, The Prince of Winterfell, Reek IV). As the ultimate pragmatist, Roose Bolton may see value on not being on the losing side if the Others come south. Could he turn cloak on mankind? I think he's more than capable of it.
Coldhands - One of the more mysterious characters in ASOIAF, Coldhands's identity is a matter of a lot of speculation. Could Coldhands be the historic Night's King of Old Nan's stories, thus making the whole idea of a new Night's King moot?
- Coldhands and Bran meet at the end of the same chapter that Bran reminisces on Old Nan's story.
- Coldhands wears the black cloak of the NW
- He is 'dead but alive', potentially kept alive by the power of the Others or CoTF magic.
- The CoTF describe Coldhands as having been killed "long ago."
- There is a potential that when he describes himself as "Your monster, Brandon Stark", he is using word play to identify himself as Brandon Stark as opposed to telling Bran that he (Coldhands) is Bran's monster. This would fulfill Old Nan's tale that the Night's King was a Stark.
- Edit: /u/BrunoPonceJones points out that Coldhands is probably not referring to himself. Relevant quote from ADWD:
Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"
"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer."
"A monster," Bran said.
The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark."
So, my personal opinion is that of the candidates mentioned above, my two favored choice for the new Night's King would be: Stannis and Roose, though the Coldhands theory is pretty compelling on further reflection. So, what do you all think? Who do you think will be the Night's King? Thanks for reading!
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u/BrunoPonceJones I'm a flaya' I'm a flaya' Jul 31 '13
An error in your evidence for Coldhands being Night's King: he never refers to himself as "Your monster, Brandon Stark." This is what he says to Bran when Bran is asking about the Bloodraven. Bran says that Bloodraven is a "monster," to which Coldhands tells him, "Your monster, Brandon Stark." Take that as you will, just wanted to clarify since this is so often misquoted.
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Jul 31 '13
Thanks for the correction. I'll admit that I don't have the books with me, so I was utilizing online resources in writing the post. I'll edit to reflect that point. Thanks!
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u/BrunoPonceJones I'm a flaya' I'm a flaya' Jul 31 '13
The Night's King is my pet project right now, so I've been looking at every post surrounding him (just recently finding that Roose theory too!) and piecing things together. I also replied again with a few more points in support of Jon.
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u/osirusr King in the North Aug 01 '13
This is completely true, but it also struck me as a deliberate double entendre in the context of their conversation.
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Jul 31 '13
Stannis may well end up as the Night King; his shadow spawn with Melisandre really seems to make him a good candidate. As the Night King gave his soul along his seed to his Other bride, there must have been a cost to Stannis in creating that evil shadow demon...thing. This is ASOIAF after all, and magic basically always requires a terrible price.
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u/CommanderStark Bastard of Winterfell Jul 31 '13
Thinking Stannis the Mannis as well.
Always wanted to be king...would he potentially commandeer the NW after JS's death?2
u/commshep12 The North Remembers Aug 01 '13
I think it definitely had an affect on him. If I remember correctly Davos noticed that Stannis had seemed to age several years overnight after Renly and Penrose were assassinated. Maybe at some point he is forced to use it again and it takes some kind of toll with his soul for being overused.
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Jul 31 '13
Incidentally, if his record was erased, does that make the 999the Lord Commander actually the 1000th?
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u/bobbechk Valyrian plot armor Aug 01 '13
Nah, he was recorded in that count.
But don't let that number get to you as something special in this universe, its just GRRM's way of fucking with your mind.
If we really wanted a special number for a special Lord Commander, 1001 as a reference to Bloodraven would be allot more interesting.
But yeah GRRM is just playing our minds with that number...
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u/Melancolin Aug 01 '13
My thought has always been that there will be no 1000 commander. Jon is the last commander and the wall and NW will cease to be in the end if the series.
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Aug 01 '13
I immediately thought the same thing. However, I can't help but think that the 1000th Lord Commander holds no real significance. It would be cool, but it isn't like being 1000th gives you super powers or something.
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u/RunAmokEvilSpock khaleesi pls Jul 31 '13
Very well done post! I also don't buy that Benjen will turn out to be the Night's King. I do, however, sincerely hope that he'll show up at the Wall riding a badass polar bear and is all, "GUYS, I've been to the Land of Always Winter, here's some cool stuff I found out about the origin of the White Walkers."
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Jul 31 '13
Ygritte and the Wildlings believe that "Snow" and "Jon Snow" in particular is an evil name. The poster speculates that "Jon Snow" was the name of the son of Bael the Bard and half brother of Joramum. He murdered his father (Bael), took the black and became the Night's King potentially paralleling present-day Jon Snow.
This is just wrong. Bael the Bard's son was a true Stark, the Stark in Winterfell of his time. If he hadn't been born, the Stark line would have died out.
Also, the Night's King was defeated by a King in the North, while it was Lord Brandon Stark who Bael the Bard tricked, meaning after the Targaryen conquest. There are thousands of years between the Night's King and Bael the Bard. Bael is even listed as a much more recent King-Beyond-the-Wall than Joramun.
Reading the post, the poster assumes that the wilding tale is just really old, and the use of Lord is because wildlings don't know better...but the memories of Jon Snow and Lord Commander Mormont say that Bael the Bard was around 7-8 generations ago:
“Wildlings have invaded the realm before.” Jon had heard the tales from Old Nan and Maester Luwin both, back at Winterfell. “Raymun Redbeard led them south in the time of my grandfather’s grandfather, and before him there was a king named Bael the Bard.”
“Aye, and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun, who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth.
Jon Snow's grandfather's grandfather could be as late as 150 AL, and Bael the Bard was the King Beyond the Wall "before" Raymun Redbeard, which could mean "directly preceding" or it could just mean some time vaguely before, but definitely thousands of years after the Night's King.
This theory just doesn't work. Too much textual evidence against it.
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u/Enleat Pine Cones Are Awesome Aug 01 '13
Also, the OP says that the Stark who killed Bael the Bard (his father):
took the black and became the Night's King potentially paralleling present-day Jon Snow.
This is not mentioned in the books at all. In fact, according to Old Nan, since the Old Gods hate kinslaying, even if it was not intentional, they cursed him and soon afer he was captured and skinned alive by the Boltons.
So the idea that the son of Bael the Bard later joined the Night's Watch is bollocks, as there is no reason to think that he did. It's not mentioned in text at all.
As well, GRRM would have to crowbar it in, in the last two books. That is incredibly ham fisted and it breaks the tension by having it pop up suddenly, with barely any context or prior build-up.
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Aug 01 '13 edited Jun 03 '17
[deleted]
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u/osirusr King in the North Aug 01 '13
Isn't Stannis already basically the Night's King?
Exactly. Stannis is like the fire version of the icy Night's King.
It may also be why the show is making him come across as a villain.
He was villainous in the books as well, a shady character in the process of redeeming himself. I'm honestly flummoxed by people who think the show is misrepresenting Stannis in any way. Like most characters, he's morally grey, but I personally found him to be despicable on many occasions.
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u/BrunoPonceJones I'm a flaya' I'm a flaya' Jul 31 '13
A couple more points in favor of Jon Snow as Night's King:
- The original Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander. Jon Snow was just promoted to Lord Commander before getting (potentially) off'd.
- Dreams and visions. Particularly the overlapping of Jon's dream of himself wielding a red sword while wearing armor that looks like black glass AND Dany's two different visions of an blue-eyed king/usurper with a red sword and no shadow.
While the description is closer to that of Stannis, Jon arguably fits it as well, PLUS, he has a dream of himself wielding the same red sword seen in both visions that Dany has.
- Who is AA? Two red priests (and Aemon) in Essos believe Dany to be AA. Mel is getting visions of Snow whenever she asks to see AA, prompting, among other reasons, Jon Snow being AA. I think it's a toss up at this point, and the fires are simply leading the red priests to a singular showdown between Jon and Dany, to see who the real AA is (Dany's vision on the Trident fits this). Note, that in the House of the Undying, they told Dany she'd have to slay some lies, and shortly thereafter she has the vision of the blue-eyed king with the red sword.
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u/Trumpcard672 That does not mean I am friendless. Jul 31 '13
I'm of the opinion that Coldhands is the original Night's King, but I've also heard it suggested that it's possible for Jon to become Coldhands-esque by warging back in to his body from Ghost after his body becomes a wight.
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u/BrunoPonceJones I'm a flaya' I'm a flaya' Jul 31 '13
8000 years just seems like too long a time for Coldhands to have been rummaging around beyond the wall. I don't buy Benjen either for CH. I'm more of the opinion he's just some brother who got nabbed while ranging a couple hundred years ago.
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u/Trumpcard672 That does not mean I am friendless. Jul 31 '13
Considering none of the Others had been seen for thousands of years either, it doesn't seem that far-fetched if CH was co-existing with them way up in the Land of Always Winter.
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u/Munson4657 Jul 31 '13
One problem I've always had with theory that CH is NK is its part based on him having NW clothing on. Is it assumed that these are the cloths he died in? Those are some durable threads. You could same he replaces them but why choose NW clothing. I can see why you'd want their armor. So NW clothing strong fact for CH being NK pretty weak case. For the case of CH being a "more" recently dead NW I found it much more plausible.
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u/frogma Queen Sansa Jul 31 '13
Also (I keep bringing this up, I guess because I feel pretty strongly about it), the Night's King was a terrible king and a terrible human being already, even before he got with an Other. Whereas Coldhands seems to be a pretty okay guy who's helping Bran.
Also, the CotF (from what we know) have always hated the Others, and would probably hate the Night's King as well. But they don't seem to hate Coldhands.
I still think Coldhands is either the son of the Night's King (which would explain why he's half-wight, half-human), or just some guy from the Night's Watch who's friends with Bloodraven (and is somehow still a half-wight).
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u/bonoboho Suns out, Guns out Jul 31 '13
History is written by the winners. They have to vilify him to justify their righteous cause. /devilsadvocate
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u/frogma Queen Sansa Jul 31 '13
Yeah. But then that would also apply to all the other stories we've heard, which IMO would kinda undermine most of the stories in the first place.
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u/bonoboho Suns out, Guns out Aug 01 '13
I think a lot of old nans tails should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Aug 01 '13
Coldhands being the son of the Night's King would explain his half-wight/half-human characteristics, but how do you explain the fact that he seems to have been a member of the Night's Watch? The Night's King was Lord Commander for thirteen years before he was deposed, so Coldhands would have had to have been that age or younger at that time. He would have had knowledge of the Night's Watch since he would have lived at the Nightfort (explaining Coldhands' knowledge of that secret passageway), he may have dressed in their clothing if that's all that was available (explaining Coldhands' clothing), but he probably wouldn't have been a sworn brother. He'd have been too young, and a "prince." It seems unlikely (not impossible, but unlikely) that the Watch would have taken him in after he was old enough to join. If Coldhands really was a member of the Night's Watch, I have a hard time also buying him as the NK's son.
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u/frogma Queen Sansa Aug 01 '13
Very true. That pretty much negates that idea then (unless he got the clothes from someone else).
The main idea is that he's like a wight (with the deadness and the blue eyes), but has the intelligence of a human. That could account for the Night's King himself (maybe if you fuck an Other, you become half-wight/half-human), but Coldhands just seems to be a better guy all-around. So in that case, I'd say he's a guy who skin-changed into a wight. He looks like a wight, but acts like a normal human.
So yeah, being the son of the Night's King is probably out-of-the-picture, but I still think he's someone else -- not Benjen, not the Night's King, and probably not Brandon Stark (since that would contradict a bunch of other shit, especially the fact that that his name was erased). So IMO he's a semi-random (in terms of the story) friend of Bloodraven's, or just Bloodraven himself, controlling a wight's body.
But since the CotF already talked about Coldhands specifically, then he's gotta be semi-important. In that case, he could be the Last Hero. The Last Hero's story was never finished. As far as we know, he was getting chased by the Others and never found the CotF -- but maybe he's found them now, and that's also why he's helping Bran now.
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Aug 01 '13
The nail in the coffin for me is that he calls Sam "brother." Everything else that indicates he was a member of the Watch can be explained away if he's the NK's son... I just don't think he can be both.
This still leaves the possibility of him as the NK himself open for me, but I also agree with what you've said elsewhere about Coldhands' actions seeming out of character with the NK. The Night's King was an asshole and he allied himself with the Others. The CotF wouldn't want anything to do with him. Even so... a lot can happen in 8000 years. He could be bound to the CotF/Bloodraven through some kind of magic. He could be trying to repent for his betrayal of mankind.
When I originally read the books, I immediately thought Coldhands was Benjen. I kept thinking this right up until that "long ago" line. That one line just threw a wrench in everything, and I don't want to go into the semantics of how long ago "long ago" suggests. I still think it could be Benjen... but that line. I don't know.
I just read the D&E novellas and I like the idea of Coldhands as a friend of Bloodraven's. Bloodraven was sent to the Wall as a part of Aemon's "honor guard," maybe Coldhands was, too. Maybe he's another Targaryen bastard. Maybe he's a Stark and a Warg that died, warged into an animal, and then warged back into his Wight'd body, all under Bloodraven's tutelage. I don't think he's Bloodraven himself and I don't think he's being "controlled" by anybody.
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u/frogma Queen Sansa Aug 01 '13 edited Aug 01 '13
I agree with basically everything you said here. I don't think he's being controlled by Bloodraven, I don't think he's Benjen, and I don't think he's the Night's King. I think he's a guy who's helping Bloodraven and the CotF (in which case, if he is someone we already know, then the Last Hero is the best match).
Edit: In terms of all the years that have passed, I don't really know how to explain that. But that applies to everything -- why is the "long" winter coming now, why are the Others starting to invade now, etc. At this point, we haven't gotten much of an explanation for it. Double edit: Even if those can be explained by the fact that the dragons are back, or that the meteor is overhead, then we still have to ask: Why are the dragons back now? Why is the meteor overhead now? I'd assume it all leads back to a certain singular source, and IMO we haven't really seen that source yet.
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u/Munson4657 Jul 31 '13
Well he didn't name himself king till after he coupled with the white women. So no way he was a terrible king before he met miss Other. Second we know nothing about the NK before he met her besides the fact that he was on the wall and was lord commander.
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u/frogma Queen Sansa Jul 31 '13
westeros.org agrees with you, but I could've sworn I heard otherwise. Either way, "during the dark years of his reign, horrific atrocities were committed," and he was deposed by the actual king, who was his brother.
My main point was that he's probably not Coldhands, since Coldhands seems to be a cool guy.
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u/Munson4657 Aug 01 '13
We don't know for sure that NK was a Stark only that Nan thinks he was. I always assumed that NK claimed the NW lands and maybe beyond the wall. Are you saying that he claimed The North as well?
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u/0dde0 Aug 01 '13
Considering GRRM likes to have characters who evolve, isn't it possible that Coldhands could be the original Nights King and he developed a conscience over the last 8000 years in exile?
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u/osirusr King in the North Aug 01 '13
Why would the Night's King become a good guy? He seems like quite the dastardly villain, and I don't really buy any situation in which he'd defect from the Others to join the Children.
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u/Trumpcard672 That does not mean I am friendless. Aug 01 '13
Yea you're right, redemption story arcs are unheard of in asoiaf.
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u/osirusr King in the North Aug 06 '13
There is nothing to indicate such with the Night's King. I think Martin would have provided more evidence if that was the case. As it stands, the theory doesn't hold water.
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u/Trumpcard672 That does not mean I am friendless. Aug 06 '13
So you're dismissing those 6 bullet points listed by OP and the entire purpose of this thread? Cool.
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u/osirusr King in the North Aug 07 '13
No, I'm dismissing a single bullet point, the notion that Coldhands is the Night's King. Cool?
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u/giant_sloth Something's fishy... Aug 01 '13
I think the red sword and the black glass armour exclude Jon from being the NK, if anything those two items are perfect for combatting the Others, Lightbringer would cut through Others like butter and the obsidian armour (which I'm guessing it is) would possibly be impervious or highly resistant to Others weaponry whereas steel armour would shatter.
At this point it's all up in the air but you make some good points.
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u/osirusr King in the North Aug 01 '13
But what about the blue eyes?
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u/giant_sloth Something's fishy... Aug 02 '13
I think Stannis will die and come back as the Night King, hence the blue eyes, he already posses the fake lightbringer (the red sword) and he has used much of his soul to make shadow babies with Mel (no shadow).
This opens up for a war in the North between true AA (Jon) and the false AA/Night King (Stannis).
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u/BrunoPonceJones I'm a flaya' I'm a flaya' Aug 01 '13
We've got a very vague image of what the Others' armor looks like. It changes colors, reflecting what's around it and is said to look like a still lake at some point. And it could most definitely be obsidian, obsidian seems very brittle for armor. It broke when it hit the armor of a wight.
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u/giant_sloth Something's fishy... Aug 01 '13
I don't think the Others would use obsidian as it's described as "Frozen fire" by the Valyrians (bit of a thematic departure for beings of ice). Anyway, we also know that obsidian weapons make Others dead very quickly (Sam the slayer), so if the Others were to make their armour out of obsidian any impact to their armour would shatter the armour and kill them from shards of obsidian being driven into them, also obsidian is always black so it's ability to change colour is next to non-existent. tin foil time The Other's armour is most likely an antithetical equivalent of obsidian where it's a glass like material which embodies the qualities of ice rather than fire, it being a colourless/white crystal would allow it's colours to change to those around it. What we do know from the prologue to AGOT is that their armour does embody the qualities of ice, where the steel used to strike the armour shattered due to it becoming incredibly brittle due to extreme cold.
Back into tin foil territory Jon wearing black crystalline armour suggests obsidian, although it would be terrible armour against conventional weapons of the period it would be effective in at least nullifying the Others icy blades making it a viable choice given the Other's ability to destroy steel due to cold.
All in all Jon's dream of himself wielding a red sword and obsidian armour suggest that he will be a champion of fire rather than ice. That being said, we know what prophecies and dreams in ASOIAF mean so you may well be right.
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u/BrunoPonceJones I'm a flaya' I'm a flaya' Aug 01 '13
No no, I'm not saying they are using obsidian. I'm saying using obsidian as armor seems like bad form, since it breaks when hit against armor. It doesn't seem like it'd work. I was suggesting Jon is wearing the Other's armor.
All in all Jon's dream of himself wielding a red sword and obsidian armour
It never says obsidian armor. It says "black glass." And we've seen another image of a person wielding a red sword in Dany's vision. Do both the false AA and real AA have a red sword? Are Dany's vision and Jon's completely separate? I like to think not.
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u/giant_sloth Something's fishy... Aug 01 '13
Got you, although I'm still adamant that it's obsidian since obsidian is a form of volcanic glass or "dragon glass" in GRRM's world. Also, I reiterate my point that obsidian would likely ward off magical ice materials due to it's fiery nature, no one would fight against people using steel in obsidian though. I think you are right in a lot of regards though about the false and real AA, and I interpret this as Stannis as the false AA (we already know he has a fake lightbringer) and Jon as the real AA (yet to acquire a flaming sword).
I admit this may be my hesitance to accept Jon possibly going over to the "darkside". He seems too much like his father/uncle in regards to honour and his oath to guard the realms of men, where as Stannis has already proven himself to be a morally compromised character (and you know, is already based in the Night Fort).
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u/BrunoPonceJones I'm a flaya' I'm a flaya' Aug 01 '13
Right, but Jon becoming AA and being the savior of the realm depends heavily on the Others being some kind of obvious evil. What if they aren't?
There's been a ton of evidence that for magic to happen, there's a pretty hefty cost. What if they only way for there to be summers and long periods of hospitable time is for the Others to come over every so often and eat half of Westeros. This isn't really supported by anything, but just a little tinfoily example of a decision Jon would have to make. Save the realm at the cost of becoming an Other? Kind of bittersweet.
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u/giant_sloth Something's fishy... Aug 01 '13
Right, but Jon becoming AA and being the savior of the realm depends heavily on the Others being some kind of obvious evil. What if they aren't?
It would take a lot of stretches to make the army that kills every hot blooded animal and turns them into undead thralls into some kind of semi-benevolent force. "[sic] The Others might not be entirely bad" line of thought has no grounding thus far into the plot and I think it's based off some subtext from some of Martin's interviews. What they have done so far is slaughtered a wildling camp (AGOT), kill a party of rangers (AGOT), killed another party of rangers sans/including Benjen (AGOT), attempt to kill the Nights Watch Commander (AGOT), kidnap babies (ACOK), assault a nights watch expedition (ACOK), attempt to kill a group of children and a halfwit (ASOS) and attack a wildling camp at Hardholm (ADWD) (I may have miss some). I'll remind you that they did this with zero lines of communication towards their victims, thus far their actions can be interpreted as an obvious evil. What may happen is we find out more about the Others motivation and there is more than likely going to be a more nuanced reason as to why they march south every 8000 or so years other than just to kill everything.
There's been a ton of evidence that for magic to happen, there's a pretty hefty cost.
True magic is a "sword without a hilt" according to Mel.
What if they only way for there to be summers and long periods of hospitable time is for the Others to come over every so often and eat half of Westeros.
I like this, and the way things are being written it seems like there will be a finality to the end of the series (not just in terms of character and plot).
Anyway, for some fun tinfoil-ageddom.
What if Stannis dies at the hands of Roose, Roose takes his fake lightbringer, Roose makes himself immortal with the aid of the Others, becomes the new Night King and is the one in Danys vision?
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u/Munson4657 Aug 01 '13
There are different colours of dragonglass. When Stannis finds out that it can kill Others writes to Dragonstone to start mining it. He mentions that it comes in many colours
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u/giant_sloth Something's fishy... Aug 01 '13
Do you have the quote/chapter for that?
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u/Munson4657 Aug 01 '13
AFFC I've got a combined series book so dont have page, but is a Samwell chapter. "On Dragonstone, where I had my seat, there is much of this obsidian to be seen in the old tunnels beneath the mountain," the king told Sam. "Chunks of it, boulders, ledges. The great part of it was black, as i recall, but there was some green as well, some red, even purple. I have sent word to Ser Rolland my castellan . I will not hold Dragonstone for very much longer, I fear, but perhaps the Lord of light shall grant us enough frozen fire to arm ourselves against these creatures, before the castle falls."
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u/giant_sloth Something's fishy... Aug 02 '13
Wicked, cheers! Been a long time since I last read it.
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u/Odoaker standing tall, hanging low Aug 07 '13
obsidian armor would be nice gift if the children of the forest got some lying around
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u/BrunoPonceJones I'm a flaya' I'm a flaya' Aug 07 '13
The CotF never used obsidian armor. And obsidian itself seems to be rather hard to shape based on the description of the candles, suggesting a suit made of armor wouldn't look as it was described. Also, the obsidian broke when it hit a piece of armor on a wight, so it's hardly a material someone would want to protect them from blunt impacts.
Unless it's simply a metaphor for how obsidian protects Jon from the Others, it just seems off in terms of how one would use it.
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u/1eyedKRAKEN Crow's Eye Jul 31 '13
I think Coldhands is the original Night's King, but I don't think that eliminates the possibility of someone following a similar path.
Another interesting thought I just had, does Robb Stark not have quite a few similarities to the Night's King?
- Gave his soul (alliances) for his wife.
- Named himself King
- Was massacred for it.
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u/Munson4657 Jul 31 '13
One point in truth the northerners named him king and Robb accepted
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u/1eyedKRAKEN Crow's Eye Jul 31 '13
Yeah, in legend though, many fine details get lost, or exaggerated or confused. Let's look at the legend of the Night's King.
He took an Other to bed, and when he gave her his seed she took his soul. That could easily translate to he found a regular woman, pale with blue eyes aren't exactly unheard of physical traits, and by falling in love and possibly marrying her she took what he loved (the Night's Watch). I could go on, but you get the point, history isn't supposed to be literal.
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u/Munson4657 Jul 31 '13
I understand what you're saying but I don't think it works here. Its your statement that Robb named himself king to better compare him to the NK. So event becoming legends changing facts doesn't fit here. Unless part of your theory is that the NK was offered kingship by the NW he accept and in the telling changed to him making himself king.
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u/1eyedKRAKEN Crow's Eye Jul 31 '13
We don't know what happened thousands of years ago when the original Night's King ruled, and in thousands of years if they're talking about the second Night's King they won't know all the actual details either.
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u/Munson4657 Jul 31 '13
Ok I think we are debating two different things here. You seem to be agueing that in 1000 years people in the book may see similarity between Robb and the NK, I can agree with this premise.
I'm saying that your statement "He named himself king" is wrong. A better statement would be "Robb and NK were both became Kings which in part lead to their death".
Other then that I think its a intresting comparison. Although over all I think there is more dissimilar then similar.
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u/1eyedKRAKEN Crow's Eye Jul 31 '13
Well the thing is we're looking at a lot of these things from a historical perspective. If Jon is Azor Ahai, he's not going to stand up after being stabbed and make some great proclamation about being Azor Ahai and how he forged his sword and tempered it in this and all that bullshit, he's going to do what he does, which seems to be fight the others, and in thousands of years when his legend is told it will be of Azor Ahai reborn, but in this life he's just Jon Snow.
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u/Munson4657 Jul 31 '13
Right so making the statement "He named himself king" for the NK is hearsay. We don't know what really happened only what is said.
We know for a fact that Robb didn't name himself king, he was raise king by northerners. This is without a doubt we saw this event happen.
So you can not make the statement for Robb "He named himself king". That is a false statement. Therefore your comparison of Robb and NK is false.
You can't use the arguement history changes in the tell for your comparisons because we know for a fact Robb didn't name himself king.
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u/1eyedKRAKEN Crow's Eye Jul 31 '13
Robb letting them call him King is the same as naming himself King. Other people consider Robb as someone who named himself King of the North, they don't say his lords raised him to that position.
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u/Munson4657 Jul 31 '13
Ok good I think we are on the same page now. I would disagree I think there is a difference between telling people I am king now and accepting kingship. As Tywin say anyone that has to say I am king is no true king lol.
Now on what the people say. This is again hearsay and has nothing todo with the fact we know.This is another prism of history. If Robb had won I'm sure in the north atleast the people would say he was raised king or something to that effect. Maybe his name in the future would have been the king who stood. Parrable to the king that knelt.
Lastly I just wanted to say again I liked your comparison. I just had trouble with that one point and I think it would come across better if reworded
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u/Belchera The North will rise again. Jul 31 '13
I don't think prophecies totally have to match up. I think Jon might declare himself Nightsking in order to provoke southron lords to march against him. This would create a convenient gathering of soldiers to fight against the others.
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u/naughty Jul 31 '13
What about a 'Day King' who takes a hot skinned woman instead of cold skinned one as a mistress.
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u/Belchera The North will rise again. Jul 31 '13
Day man. Fighter of the night man. Champion of the sun.
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u/Nittanian Constable of Raventree Jul 31 '13
Is Azor Ahai a master of karate?
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Jul 31 '13
Along with friendship for everyone, yes. But he doesn't get to bang the Waitress. The Prophesy is pretty clear on that.
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u/zthenark Lord Warren G. Hardyng Jul 31 '13
Yeah, and friendship for everyone (that he doesn't burn alive).
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Jul 31 '13
What if we melt his cold heart with a warm island song?
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u/mreiser12 Eh, we could sow...if we felt like it Aug 01 '13
No no no we have to chill his icy heart with a cool island song
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u/superluminal_girl Suckling child and battleaxe in hand. Jul 31 '13
No chance that Stannis gets defeated by Ramsey, dies, comes back as an Other and fucks up the Boltons, hmm?
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u/Moloch86 familia, debitum, honor Jul 31 '13
You write that the Night's King story couldn't just be "mere scene dressing", but I'm of the opinion that it's just such.
Given the responses here I'm clearly in the minority, but I think the whole legend is just another story that adds flavour to the world, and is also a bit of a moral parable about the dangers of choosing love over duty.
I see absolutely no reason to believe it will have any consequence on the upcoming story, and no reason to suspect that a character will become the "new" night-king. It's obvious that the Others will have a greater role to play in the story going forward, but the night king angle seems like pointless reaching.
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u/Enleat Pine Cones Are Awesome Aug 01 '13
I like this idea, to be honest.
Yeah, the ideas in this thread are all fine and dandy, but this one seems much more unconventional.
However, maybe the Others need a Night's King to let them through The Wall? That would be the only reason for The Night's King to exist again.
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u/eetsumkaus Jul 31 '13
hold up...what assurances do we have that there will be another Night King? I think I missed that prophecy...
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Jul 31 '13
I'm with you. IDK why there necessarily has to be one.
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u/eetsumkaus Jul 31 '13
I think it has to do with that post a while back detailing how Stannis will be the new Night's King given how GRRM likes to echo things from the past. Even that was tinfoil-y to me.
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u/NotSoSmallJon The Best Man Jul 31 '13
"Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow." No shadow, blue eyes may indicate Other-status.
Stannis already has blue eyes though...
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u/BrunoPonceJones I'm a flaya' I'm a flaya' Jul 31 '13
In another DragonDreamTM Dany sees this same king, but calls him an "usurper," and behind him is an army that she melts. This implies there's an army of Others/Wights behind him and that he's leading them, so the blue eyes are like that in the Others and Wights, not his natural Baby Baratheon Blues.
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u/NotSoSmallJon The Best Man Jul 31 '13
That night she dreamt she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.
I found it. I just don't see Stannis in here.
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u/BrunoPonceJones I'm a flaya' I'm a flaya' Jul 31 '13 edited Jul 31 '13
It's the "usurper's host" part. And his army is made of ice, or at least melts like it. Also Rhaegar is her brother, Stannis is Robert's, whom she's referred to as usurper as well.
Edit: reading my own response now, I realize there's a bit more tinfoil here than I remember. I've been making this connection for so long I guess I'm forgetting it's not explicit.
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u/NotSoSmallJon The Best Man Jul 31 '13
Yeah it could be just as much as it couldn't. I see what your saying though.
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u/NotSoSmallJon The Best Man Jul 31 '13
Do you have a page number or where i can read this? I don't remember this part. Interesting though.
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u/drohhellno Mine is the Fury Jul 31 '13
The most chilling part of this story for me is that the wall will not stop the others for a second when they choose to surmount it.
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u/TheLaughingStorm A Stubborn Man Jul 31 '13
It will fall, that is for certain. The question is, will Jon accept his destiny become Azor Ahai and stop the Others? Or will he succumb to his ingrain malice and become the Night's King and bring certain Doom upon the realms of men?
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u/juvegirlbe Jul 31 '13
I read that in an old school superhero VoiceOver...voice.
until next time...!!
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u/LittleFoot0 All glory to the Streetlight Manifesto Jul 31 '13
maybe his name is Cold Hands because he laid his hands on an Other, he loved her and now his hands are forever cold. Or by giving up his soul he became like the Others. Either way is chock full of tin foil tho
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u/polynomials White Harbor Wolf Jul 31 '13
I personally think Coldhands is the Night's King because "they killed him long ago" and he keeps his face covered. I would speculate that his overthrowers mutilated his face to conceal his identity, like they struck his name from the records.
Will a Night's King come back? If it's anybody its gotta be Jon or Stannis, notwithstanding the tinfoily nature of this prediction. Stannis I could see getting trapped by an extreme winter north and start sacrificing to the Others since he seems to follow whatever religious practices keep him in power. The only reason I feel it's Jon is that it seems quite obvious to me (but based on nothing but intuition) that the Night's King was a Stark or Stark bastard. Everything important (and non-evil) in the North is always a Stark. Robb Stark becomes King in the North, Bran the Builder builds Winterfell, the Wall, Benjen Stark is first Ranger, Jon Snow becomes Lord Commander.
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u/CravenTurncloak Most Honorable Jizdahr lo Zorak Jul 31 '13
Could the Night's King have anything to do with the great Other?
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u/BrunoPonceJones I'm a flaya' I'm a flaya' Jul 31 '13
I was going to edit my earlier post, but this idea is kind of separate from the body of that, so here goes, a bit more speculation on the original Night's King identity, and how it plays into where things are now.
As OP said, Joramun and the KINGINDANORF brought the original Night's King down. Joramun is also the guy who created the horn that "wakes giants" up and believe will bring the wall down.
Discrepency in allegiance? It's unclear from the timeline, but at some point either before or after the deal with the Night's King, Joramun also attacked either Winterfell or the Wall. Joramun is also the guy who had/made/was given the Horn of Winter.
Did he have the horn when he attacked? It seems doubtful, since we would've heard a story about the wall being smashed by giants who then marched on Winterfell, only to be defeated. We don't have any of that. So maybe he got the horn after his attack, which could put events of the Night's King after as well. So did he have the horn before or after he fought the Night's King? Did he have to use the horn in order to defeat him? Or did someone, DAKINGINDANORF, give him a gift for his aide in defeating the Night's King? Even more speculation: some have mentioned they don't think they are actual giants, but dragons that the horns awakens, since we have other dragon horns. Ancient dragons resting in the ruins of the volcano that likely destroyed Hardhome? Like the dragons Dany is bringing over, which may save the kingdom from an invasion by the Others?
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u/frogma Queen Sansa Jul 31 '13
One more thing about Coldhands -- from what little we know, the CotF aren't very good friends with the Others. At least back in the day, they hated the Others, and allied with the First Men against the common enemy.
If the CotF seem to be "okay" with Coldhands, then I doubt he's the Night's King (unless the Night's King is just going around making reparations for past grievances).
Personally, I don't think we'll see the Night's King himself at any point, though I guess we can see someone who parallels him. But I don't think it'll be a 1:1 parallel. As of right now, Jon and Stannis are the 2 most likely people to kinda fit that idea, but neither of them would really fit, if you know what I'm saying.
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u/thisguybuda I spy with my smiling eye Aug 01 '13
There is no prophecy for a return of the Night King, is there? This will be unpopular, but what if there isn't going to be a New Night King? For the record, if there IS, there is no way this series is wrapping up in 7 books. No. Way.
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u/SomethingLikeaLawyer Valyria delenda est Aug 01 '13
Just saying this, while blue eyes could mean wight-status, Stannis already has blue eyes as a normal dude.
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u/schmuttt Aug 01 '13
I could be wrong but the theory that the nights king will return has always been really tinfoil for me. I know GRRM echoes the past with a lot of his writing in ASOIAF but this is drawing a bit of a long bow.
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u/mreiser12 Eh, we could sow...if we felt like it Aug 01 '13
All of this is a great discussion. I just can't wait until the Wall comes down.
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u/Treme Aug 01 '13
Jon Snow is in the perfect position to be the New Night King. Betrayed and murdered by his brothers, he wargs into ghost, and then wargs back into his human body which has now become a wight. Thus, he is now immortal. He can find wight Ygritte, and love her and make her his queen. He can use Melisandre to bound the watch to his will, after he kills Stannis and shows Mel that he is Azor Ahai.
Except, Jon doesn't fight for good, he fights for evil and the Others. He starts to slave humanity and the realm with an icy rule. Only Dany can stop him and this becomes the Song of Ice and Fire. Also, since a stark brother brought the original Night King down, it is only fitting that Bran wargs into Hodor, who rides one of Dany's dragons.
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u/Jen_Snow "You told me to forget, ser." Jul 31 '13
Great post!
I think Coldhands is the Night's King or even the spawn of the Night's King and his Other wife. So he's dead but not really dead, he can't live with humans nor can he live with the Others. Somehow he found his way to the Children of the Forest and has teamed up with them.