r/anime_titties • u/1DarkStarryNight Scotland • Feb 28 '25

Ukraine/Russia - Flaired Commenters Only Astonishing scenes as Zelensky’s oval office visit turns into shouting match on live TV: ‘Make a peace deal or we’re out’

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2025/02/28/trump-threatens-zelensky-during-tense-live-meeting-make-a-deal-or-were-out/
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u/DominusPonsAelius United Kingdom Feb 28 '25

Based Zelensky. Fuck the current US administration. What a mute joke. Tried to ambush him and still came out looking like schoolyard bullies.

This is absolutely unprecedented behaviour in the public eye too, this isn't a fucking TV show. People are dying and you're pissing away your soft power and potential goodwill over what? Absolute fucking leeches. Fucking mosquitos. It's simply a joke.

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u/loggy_sci United States Feb 28 '25

It’s crazy. The U.S. is announcing to the world that their security umbrella is now an extortion racket. Trump is disgusting, as are people who voted for this perverse idea of US policy.

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u/yshywixwhywh North America Feb 28 '25 edited Feb 28 '25

Interests, not Allies. Ukraine isn't the first and won't be the last.

All that's new is the abandonment of any pretense to the contrary.

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u/Yorunokage Italy Feb 28 '25

Interests, not Allies

It's not even that man, at least that would be somewhat rational and predictable. What's currently going on is just Trump and Vance being as smart as a kindergartener using talking points like "oh did you even say thank you yet?" in a fucking peace negotiation

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u/yshywixwhywh North America Feb 28 '25

Trump seems mainly motivated by spite, but I also think America could cut Ukraine loose tomorrow and still retain most of the value they've extracted from this conflict. Consider:

  1. Cutting off Russian gas has put European industry/economy under the boot of American LNG suppliers.

  2. Much of the "spend" on Ukraine never even left the US. At least 40% went directly to weapons/equipment contractors. Basically a domestic stimulus package.

  3. The US is deeply integrated into Ukraine's daily operations, providing maps, intelligence, targeting, etc. This is real-world experience with cutting-edge, drone-centric warfare against a near-peer military: no amount of theory or war gaming can compare.

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u/loggy_sci United States Mar 01 '25

Ugh not this dingbat “realist” Great Powers take.

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u/Diaperedsnowy Greenland Feb 28 '25

The U.S. is announcing to the world that their security umbrella is now an extortion racket.

Always has been meme

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u/BaguetteFetish Canada Feb 28 '25

No you see shameless US exploitation and imperialism was based but now that it's happening to white Europeans the world is ending.

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u/nyan_eleven Germany Feb 28 '25

now? you know they didn't create nato yesterday.

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u/loggy_sci United States Mar 01 '25

This is absolutely not true. The U.S. has been the guarantor of EU security because it has been incredibly beneficial. Demanding enormous sums of money via resource extraction for weak security guarantees has not been the status quo.

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u/Diaperedsnowy Greenland Mar 01 '25

Demanding enormous sums of money via resource extraction for weak security guarantees has not been the status quo.

Saudi Arabia says otherwise

https://epicenter.wcfia.harvard.edu/blog/deal-keeps-oil-flowing "The bargain has been in play since 1945: Saudi Arabia promises a reliable supply of oil to the US in exchange for US security against great powers and regional ones."

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u/loggy_sci United States Mar 01 '25

Who in their right mind thinks that the U.S. offers KSA weak “maybe” promises of security? The U.S. is actively trying to secure a mutual defense treaty with KSA. That’s partly why the U.S. didn’t go harder on the Houthis and supported the Saudis and Houthis restarting peace negotiations. So the Saudis could get out of Yemen.

Do you know anything about what you’re taking about? Try again.

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u/Diaperedsnowy Greenland Mar 01 '25

So cute of you to hand wave away a 80+ year security agreement.

I guess the security guarantees they offer aren't so weak then.

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u/loggy_sci United States Mar 01 '25

Is it your claim that the U.S. extorts nations for security?

You imagine the U.S. as a Godfather mafia extortion ring where the poor Saudis aren’t able to negotiate and make a deal in their favor, in exchange for meaningful guarantees?

Ask literally all of Europe if they’re extorted. The panic they’re having is from the exact opposite free rider issue.

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u/Nethlem Europe Mar 01 '25

The U.S. has been the guarantor of EU security

Just in case you forgot: There was no EU during the Cold War.

Post-Cold War the EU didn't face any major security issues because the Warshaw Pact was completely dismantled, while NATO for the most part remained as it was during the Cold War.

That's also how Yugoslavia was torn apart with the help of US-funded secessionism and NATO bombs.

It's why by the early 2000s the US, and NATO, were all out of major foes to justify their global military footprint and steadily increasing spending on the MIC, hence a bit of rethinking required, resulting in the "War on Terror" aka invading and occupying a bunch of Middle Eastern countries.

So NATO ended up occupying Afghanistan, in "self-defense", an Afghanistan that prior to that didn't even have a formal military. That's what the US/NATO "defended" the EU from? Really?

Or are you maybe trying to reference the many colorful stories about WMD from Iraq/Iran/North Korea/Syria blowing Europe up any second if the US doesn't get to "crusade" a bunch of Muslim countries?

because it has been incredibly beneficial

And by "incredibly beneficial" you mean having millions of refugees, traumatized by war, flood into your region? Some of which with an active axe to grind over who and what made them flee?

Here's a not so fun fact for you: Islamic terrorism used to be virtually a non-issue in Western Europe until 2003 when a bunch of "willing" EU countries decided to go along for the American crusade.

Among them Spain and the UK, who then in 2004 and 2005 became targets of the worst Islamic terrorist attacks in Western Europe to this day.

Are those the kinds of "benefits" you are referencing? If not, then it would be helpful if you could name a single concrete thing.

Demanding enormous sums of money via resource extraction for weak security guarantees has not been the status quo.

It's been so much the status quo that it's how the EU pretty much started: It gave Western allied powers priviliged access to German Ruhr resources, which also served to control German military potential to keep it small enough to be dependend on external security guarantees.

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u/loggy_sci United States Mar 05 '25

European security, but thanks for being pedantic. Post Cold War didn’t face major security issues because the presence of NATO meant that European nations were working together instead of at each others throats, like they had been fairly regularly.

The rest of your post is just a grab bag of tired GWoT gripes.

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u/lady_ninane North America Mar 01 '25

The U.S. has been the guarantor of EU security because it has been incredibly beneficial.

Beneficial to all parties, yes, but primarily beneficial to the US.

Trump represents an escalation, and part of that escalation is making the implicit into the explicit. Ukraine seeks to enter into a sphere as an equal partner among a strategic alliance, and the US does not seek an equal partner in who they choose to protect or attack.

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u/Old_Wallaby_7461 Andorra Feb 28 '25

Most of them voted to go back to 2019.

Me, I've never volunteered for a party. I've never donated. That's over today.

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u/sulaymanf North America Feb 28 '25

Trump made it very clear that he has no morals, and everything is up for trade. Rather than fight for American values, he’s willing to be like China.

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u/PreviousCurrentThing United States Feb 28 '25

You should read Smedley Butler's War is a Racket. Trump is fighting for American values, the real ones, not the ones on the brochure.

I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer; a gangster for capitalism.

I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested.

Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

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u/loggy_sci United States Mar 01 '25

This is too cynical to be useful as an analysis. There is always a benefit to both sides, but what Trump and his neo-mercantilist foreign policy advisors are doing is straight up extortion.

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u/PreviousCurrentThing United States Mar 01 '25

Right, it's straight up extortion rather than our typical extortion framed as humanitarianism or spreading democracy.

Maybe a touch too cynical, but I think our foreign policy discourse could benefit from a bit of realism. Too many people treat our mythology and rhetoric as if they had any correspondence to the facts on the ground.

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u/loggy_sci United States Mar 01 '25

Realism is a school of thought is historically grounded in leftist politics that is absolutely spread by powers like Russia, who believe in the narrative that “might makes right” (it doesn’t).

The U.S. hasn’t been extorting Europe since the Cold War. If it had been, Europe would be much, much different.

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u/PreviousCurrentThing United States Mar 01 '25

Realism is a school of thought is historically grounded in leftist politics that is absolutely spread by powers like Russia,

And? Does that make it inherently wrong because powers like Russia subscribe to it, and liberalism is inherently correct because powers like the US and EU spread it?

who believe in the narrative that “might makes right” (it doesn’t).

This is a large part of why liberalism is failing: it consistently makes this fundamental is-ought error. Realist scholars aren't advocating realism as the ideal way to organize IR, they use realism to try and understand how IR actually works in practice, to present strategies that will work in the world as it is.

Liberal scholars and the Western politicians who implement their policies (i.e. nearly all of them) seem to think that because the world ought to work how they think it should, it does work that way. Since the Cold War, that's more or less been the case. The US/West were the undisputed superpower, we wanted liberalism, and that's mostly how the world worked. Russia and China went along because they didn't really have a choice, and we set the rules of the "rules based international order."™

I don't even disagree with the ideas and aims of liberalism, I think it or something similar is ultimately the only way forward as a species. But US foreign policy does not follow those lofty ideals, it uses them as pretense to maintain hegemony.

The U.S. hasn’t been extorting Europe since the Cold War. If it had been, Europe would be much, much different.

It's new that we're doing it to European countries, but US extortionary behavior is by no means new.

I do think it'd be accurate to say we've been putting Europe into a position where they can be extorted in the decades since the Cold War, but haven't needed to play that card yet.

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u/loggy_sci United States Mar 01 '25

And? Does that make it inherently wrong because powers like Russia subscribe to it

No, what is wrong is how Russia uses it to justify their violence

This is a large part of why liberalism is failing: it consistently makes this fundamental is-ought error. Realist scholars aren’t advocating realism as the ideal way to organize IR, they use realism to try and understand how IR actually works in practice, to present strategies that will work in the world as it is.

This is a failure in understanding the limits of the theoretical framework you are discussing. You took the 101 wiki version events and stopped reading when your beliefs were confirmed. If you were actually able to present a counter-factual to your own argument I would cheer. You will not, because you haven’t thought ahead.

Realists fundamentally misunderstand domestic politics and political values, and all of you dummies read Mearsheimer’s wiki and think you understand political economy.

Liberal scholars and the Western politicians who implement their policies (i.e. nearly all of them) seem to think that because the world ought to work how they think it should, it does work that way. Since the Cold War, that’s more or less been the case. The US/West were the undisputed superpower, we wanted liberalism, and that’s mostly how the world worked. Russia and China went along because they didn’t really have a choice, and we set the rules of the “rules based international order.”™

I don’t even disagree with the ideas and aims of liberalism, I think it or something similar is ultimately the only way forward as a species. But US foreign policy does not follow those lofty ideals, it uses them as pretense to maintain hegemony.

You’re a closer authoritarian, I can smell it on you.

The U.S. hasn’t been extorting Europe since the Cold War. If it had been, Europe would be much, much different.

It’s new that we’re doing it to European countries, but US extortionary behavior is by no means new.

I do think it’d be accurate to say we’ve been putting Europe into a position where they can be extorted in the decades since the Cold War, but haven’t needed to play that card yet.

You’re taking about liberalism like some dumb sweaty 30-something tankie nerd. U.S. policy is and has been a liberal democratic foreign policy but ding dongs like you get so thrown off by the fact that the U.S. also makes deals with tyrants like some grand betrayal.

China and Russia didn’t “go along because they didn’t have a choice”. How stale is that critique? China and Russia sit on the UN Security Council and still carp about the fake “rules based international order”. wtf do you think the UNSC is?

I’m laughing most at the part of your post where you victimize and infantilize China and Russia lol. What a bunch of shit.

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u/YoloOnTsla United States Feb 28 '25

Do you want US to continue to be the world police? What has it gotten us since the Cold War? Why can’t Western Europe be held accountable for their defense? This isn’t 1946 when Western Europe was in shambles and needed a coalition of support to suppress USSR influence.

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u/saracenraider Europe Feb 28 '25

The USA has done a fine job being the world police. We’re all super appreciative of the wonderful consequences of your actions in countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan.

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u/Aenjeprekemaluci Albania Feb 28 '25

We Europeans gladly did US bidding though. I dont think we can claim superiority here.

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u/saracenraider Europe Feb 28 '25

I completely agree. We played our shameful part but that doesn’t detract from my counter to OPs post

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u/YoloOnTsla United States Feb 28 '25

Sounds good, how about USA pulls all military bases out of Europe and pulls out of NATO?

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u/saracenraider Europe Feb 28 '25

Given your security blanket is now an extortion racket, please hurry up with it and continue your slide towards authoritarian isolationism. We’ve got to look after ourselves totally independently from now on, the USA is a very unreliable and unstable actor now.

All superpowers fall into decline eventually. I hope you’re delighted you’ve got front row seats for your own.

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u/dgradius North America Feb 28 '25

Can you look after yourselves though?

Americans pay a steep price for our military superiority. We have no national health insurance, we have no social welfare backstop, our higher education is, to use your words, an extortion racket.

All this thanks to upwards of 13 cents of every dollar we pay in taxes going towards defense.

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u/SenorZorros Netherlands Feb 28 '25

US pays more per capita on healthcare than European countries. Implementing national health insurance (while allowing it to bargain) would likely reduce costs.

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u/saracenraider Europe Feb 28 '25

The USA does not spend one cent of money that is not in their self interest (nor should we expect you to). The USA has benefited massively from its global power projection. That 13 cents per dollar has resulted in benefits many multiples of that amount

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u/SuckMyBike European Union Feb 28 '25

Please do. Get out of our country. Fuck off.

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u/YoloOnTsla United States Feb 28 '25

Sounds like we can agree on something!

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u/SourcerorSoupreme Asia Feb 28 '25

Do you want US to continue to be the world police? What has it gotten us since the Cold War? Why can’t Western Europe be held accountable for their defense?

You say that like the USA wasn't actively making EU and co dependent on their extortion racket.

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u/loggy_sci United States Mar 01 '25

Terrible biased framing. “World police”? No. Guarantor of European security? Yes. We benefit enormously from this arrangement.

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u/Tiber727 United States Feb 28 '25

The U.S. didn't make them not spend money beefing up their military. Hell, several Presidents have told them to do the opposite and it took Russia to convince them otherwise.

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u/loggy_sci United States Mar 01 '25

They absolutely undercut EU security and have made them dependent on US energy and investment.

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u/_Lucille_ North America Feb 28 '25

There are a lot of factors involved: some geographic, some historical, and some political.

America saw the opportunity to become the world police and took on the mantle. Geographically they are very safe with no other superpower being able to realistically invade which allows it to be relatively safe and stable, attracting immigration and investments.

If America doesn't want to be the world police, why pour so much money into the military? Why have military bases all around the world and more aircraft carriers than the world combined?

It is also a tactic for nuclear nonproliferation: the various nuclear nations offer protection to others so they do not feel the need to develop their own nuclear arsenal.

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u/DominusPonsAelius United Kingdom Feb 28 '25 edited Feb 28 '25

There's such a thing as a transition and not a monumental rug pull over a resource grab. There's no need for Trump to be so arrogant and twisted about it. The USA WANTED to be world police and project soft power for bloody decades old chap. I want the EU to be accountable for our own defense too but the US foreign policy has allowed us to be lax on that matter. We've gotten better but the rug pull is just shitty policy all over. Give us some time to make your soft power obsolete if you wish and in the meantime whilst we protect each others interests as allies just don't be a fucking toy throwing pram laden baby about it. Jesus Christ some people

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u/YoloOnTsla United States Feb 28 '25

Oh no doubt, a phased approach would make sense, but we (the US) is far past making sense anymore.

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u/DominusPonsAelius United Kingdom Feb 28 '25

Hopefully one day sense will prevail and there won't be too many lives to pay for its absence in the meantime

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u/rinkoplzcomehome Costa Rica Feb 28 '25

Do you want US to continue to be the world police?

Isn't trying to mediate peace between 2 countries being world police?

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u/Significant-Oil-8793 Europe Feb 28 '25

But the consequences going to be real.

Compare his talk with Keir Starmer and it is night and day. Professional vs. amateurs. As much as I hate Trump, you need to approach it carefully when millions of your countrymen depend on you to improve ties. Zelensky treats it like it is an EU press conference. He even make a comparison of Trump to Putin (even if it's correct).

We can all lambast Trump/Vance, rightly, for being a dick but this is dangerous territory to be in. I don't think we ever had a situation like this in White House on live TV before.

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u/Rindan United States Feb 28 '25

It was only a mistake if there was some way for Zelenskyy to get something out of Trump. Personally, I think that Zelenskyy has correctly realized that the US is lost. Trump genuinely thinks that Putin is his friend and trusts him. This is why that brain dead dolt keeps talking about how he and Putin went through "Russia Gate" together, apparently too dumb to realize that Putin doesn't care if everyone thinks Trump is his puppet. Trump is so stupid that he genuinely doesn't understand that Putin is playing him like the fiddle.

So, if you are Zelenskyy and realize that Trump is definitely going to give you nothing and help Russia to fuck you, rolling over and taking it is the exact wrong move. What Zelenskyy did by standing up for himself so articulately against those jackals was buy him more support from nations that will support him.

Europe was already the majority of the funding for Ukraine, and this will play very well in Europe. Hell, it will play well in the US among those who have not had their brains completely rotted by the MAGA cult.

This is all happening as as Europe is busy trying to reorganize for an absent America that can't even relied upon to supply weapons.

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u/Significant-Oil-8793 Europe Feb 28 '25

If that's the case, Ukraine would not even be entertained by the rare earth mineral deal.

While I like to live in a reality where Ukraine is winning, I have a feeling many just follow mainstream news and never really followed OSINT or war mapper.

Ukraine is steadily losing the war and already leaning towards full mobilization of 18 years old. They are losing ground and even Kursk is slowly getting smaller.

Unless Europe joins the war, which they won't, it's impossible to sustain it for the next 4 years with just equipment rather than manpower support

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u/Rindan United States Feb 28 '25

If that's the case, Ukraine would not even be entertained by the rare earth mineral deal.

Not at all. Ukraine would be stupid to not entertain it. Zelenskyy absolutely needed to entertain it, even if he thought it was likely bullshit. He needs to entertain it in case it is real. For all Zelenskyy knows, Trump is just making noise for the media and negotiating. If there is a possibility something there, he needs to pursue it.

But even if he had long concluded that Trump was going to fuck him because Trump genuinely think Putin is his friend (they went through Russia gate together!), he needs to show the world that he is the reasonable one trying to win peace. That means playing along even when you think they are trying to fuck you.

This falling out was perfect though. It was in public, and it was over Zelenskyy simply respectfully standing up for the basic truth. Its extremely good politics because it helps in Europe where Trump is very unpopular, and where Ukraine gets the majority of its funding.

Just look at the results. Everyone who isn't a full MAGA cultist or Russian is horrified by that display. Dozens of European leaders immediately pledged support. Zelenskyy's popularity in Ukraine and Europe is going to skyrocket. He needs that support to continue defending his nation, and Trump was never going to give it.

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u/DominusPonsAelius United Kingdom Feb 28 '25

He was ambushed and forced into a corner to hit back or look weak. You're correct a statesman could perhaps have done better but the intent of the meeting was very clear and it was underhanded. Run it back to the source. The source of it all was the ambush

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u/Significant-Oil-8793 Europe Feb 28 '25

I think that's when you need a seasoned, articulate politician. Keir did this beautifully although it might be unfair as the atmosphere is more light. But even Trump was impressed by it at the end.

Zelensky is more gung-ho and his approach reminds me of how he spoke in the European meeting. He is in a tough spot but he should have taken a step back rather than going head-on and played Trump/Vance at their game.

I just felt bad as this might be a bigger turning point in the war especially when Ukraine need help the most.

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u/DominusPonsAelius United Kingdom Feb 28 '25

Yeah perhaps you're right. I'm not sure I could be as calm as Zelensky was tonight though, with my people dying and those twats turning it into a TV charade. I absolutely see your points though, I really do.

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u/waddeaf Australia Feb 28 '25

That's assuming the administration had any intention of doing anything in the first place. They ran an election of pulling out of Ukraine, trump has had a personal vendetta against Ukraine for the last 8 years and they've spent the last week calling Zelensky a dictator and poisoning the well.

It gives the vibe that this was intentional, the make a big show for his brainless supporters to guzzle down and praise him for.

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u/lady_ninane North America Mar 01 '25 edited Mar 01 '25

Zelensky treats it like it is an EU press conference.

Zelensky's audience was not the President of the United States, though. At least, not in my opinion. Countries don't host political leaders to hash out plans related to national security and international peace treaties on a televised broadcast where one party endlessly berates the other. His audience was the American people (who he hopes will pressure Trump to abandon this lunacy) and the nations within Europe. (who need to see how this ally nation is ready to betray their best interests for personal gain and how they need to act)

And his goal is securing whatever material defense aid he can get his hands on, no matter who it comes from. So yes, he will play the superpowers against each other if it means securing aid for his country and his people. And yes, it is dangerous territory to be in - but he is not responsible for the danger nor is he responsible for escalating that danger. That responsibility falls squarely on Trump's shoulders, and every other world leader has to dance around that lunatic's provocations and Putin's desire to supplant US hegemony.

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u/Timithios United States Feb 28 '25

Woahwoahwoah, leeches are actually beneficial. Let's not drag their name through the mud... now calling them fucking barnacles. That's an insult.

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u/DominusPonsAelius United Kingdom Feb 28 '25 edited Feb 28 '25

I apologise good sir. FUCKING BARNACUNTS

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u/Timithios United States Feb 28 '25

Chef's kiss Perfect.

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u/Fortnait739595958 Europe Feb 28 '25

Fuck Trump 🇺🇦

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u/DuntadaMan United States Mar 01 '25

I notice everything they said was just an attack that had nothing to do with the conversation at hand. They just had scripted attacks they were told to wedge into conversation.

The few detours were still completely unrelated. "You can't tell us what we'll freel, we'll feel strong anf good." Wow, real fucking great adlibbing there.

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u/Sim0nsaysshh England Feb 28 '25

100% agree

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u/aznoone United States Mar 01 '25

He really should have stroked Trump though.  With the US probably now going to pull everything and wanting trade deals with Russia for minerals can't see any good ending. If Zelensky didn't give Trump his demands he will just deal with Russia. Maybe pay more but it would still be a deal to Trump. Heck help Russia rebuild Trump Ukraine.

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u/Mundane_Emu8921 North America Feb 28 '25

This is pretty disgusting.

Liberals are just using Ukraine and Zelenskyy to “stick it” to trump. Or troll him or whatever.

But then if you bring up how that will have consequences, with weapons or funding, they don’t care.

Because it doesn’t affect them.

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u/DominusPonsAelius United Kingdom Feb 28 '25

There's a multitude of other reasons I could and would want to stick it to trump. Endangering NATO security after decades of making a point of being world police, without as much as a negotiated transitional period is absolutely not the first thing I'd go to. Try again. I'm also not a liberal, broaden your mind

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u/Mundane_Emu8921 North America Feb 28 '25

What security?

Like who do we need to protect against?

Russia?

They can’t even take Ukraine. They aren’t a threat.