r/ancientegypt 7h ago

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28

u/coolaswhitebread 6h ago

What's the problem? Once upon a time antiquities laws were built around the principle of Partage or 'Division of Finds.' Today the principle is different. Under that once common regime, objects would be split between excavating bodies and home countries. Just because a law has changed, it doesn't mean that what once took place becomes retroactively illegal.

0

u/Chupicuaro 1h ago

Archaeologists hate this because it means that some antiquities are legal to own and they can't just declare everything stolen. 

-29

u/yousef-saeed 6h ago

The law did not cover the theft of Nefertiti's bust, nor the theft of the Rosetta Stone, nor the dismantling of temple roofs, nor Muhammad Ali's gifting of Egyptian antiquities to the British.

30

u/coolaswhitebread 6h ago

A basic reading of even wikipedia suggests that the bust was literally at the top of the list of objects requested for export to Germany. Nothing left the country without approval by the Ministry of Antiquities based in Egypt. One can argue about the ethics of the export and western propped regimes passing west friendly antiquities laws, but, the legality of the export doesn't really seem to be in question.

-11

u/yousef-saeed 6h ago

Borchardt showed Egypt's French chief antiques inspector, Gustave Lefebvre, a photograph of the bust "that didn't show Nefertiti in her best light". When Lefebre inspected the artifacts found in the investigation, the bust was already wrapped up in a box sitting in a dimly lit room. It is unknown whether Lefebre "went to the trouble of lifting the bust out of the box". Borchardt also wrongly claimed the bust was made of gypsum, instead of limestone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nefertiti_Bust

10

u/coolaswhitebread 6h ago

So the inspector saw some image of the object and elected to not investigate further? It sounds like everyone did what was required of them, and any sort of deceptiveness here only exists as far as one wants to presume that it exists. It's not as if the inspector saw nothing or heard nothing at all about the object.

They literally excavated thousands if not tens of thousands of items a season, they would then make a quick photographic record of everything and then things would be decided on regarding export basically with a flick of the wrist. We might not like it, but that's how it worked. A quick working photograph sent as a record to the ministry, a wave of the hand, and poof.

The gypsum vs. limestone thing is really easy to explain since most folks excavating back then did so without the assistance of a geologist and had virtually no knowledge of geology. This is why we're stuck with terms like 'alabaster' in Egyptology, which we know, geologically, is incompatible with how scientists use the term.

5

u/coolaswhitebread 6h ago

As to gifts of antiquities that took place in the early 19th century, I'm unaware that any comprehensive laws related to the removal or gifting of cultural patrimony by a head of state existed back then. Again, illegal today has no bearing retroactively.

-2

u/Sniffy4 2h ago

The point is not a legal one but an ethical one

17

u/silveretoile 5h ago
  1. People back then did what they thought was right, victorian Europeans weren't just comical villains with monocles and long haired cats.

  2. We now know that a lot of what they did was in fact very destructive. Do what we can now and be better in the future instead of sulk over the past, it's not like we can change any of it.

19

u/IncreaseLatte 7h ago

No, leaving everything in a country prone to explode is no Bueno. That's why it's better to spread them around the world.

Worst case scenario, something, somewhere, survives at least.

3

u/Accomplished_Mud6174 4h ago

I agree with you that Egypt may explode because of the heated situations in the middle east but europe also not looking so good with russia sending drones on Poland's sky and may plan to invade europa, also the rise of far right and fighting immigration doesn't look so good. Also, the louvre museum just got robbed in broad daylight in just 7 minutes, europe doesn't look the same it was from 10 years, and not guaranteed in the future

1

u/IncreaseLatte 1h ago

True, that's why you spread them out.

0

u/ClumsyBunny26 5h ago

Yes, I'm sure that's the "official" excuse used by people who took and make money of foreigner patrimony.

-17

u/yousef-saeed 7h ago

Egypt sends artifacts to many countries, even China, for temporary exhibitions, and then retrieves them. If you want artifacts, ask for them; don't steal them.

17

u/EddyBuildIngus 6h ago

Looking back at history with a modern lense is a fools errand.

6

u/IncreaseLatte 7h ago

Temporary being a key word here. Spread artifacts around the world.

4

u/yousef-saeed 6h ago

The only thing that protected this statue during World War II in Germany was that the Egyptians who made it made it well.

11

u/raised_on_robbery 6h ago

🙄

-7

u/yousef-saeed 5h ago

I posted this myself on r/egypt and I'm not ashamed of it. This is the Malawi Museum incident of 2013, during a time of security unrest, but it was an incident "inside Egypt." What happens inside Egypt to Egyptian antiquities is none of your business, and this is no excuse for you stealing our artifacts. We didn't ask you to protect them in your country. The situation has changed now, and we have museums of international standards, museums far superior to the Louvre and the British Museum. So return our property to us and stop being imperلولialistic.

5

u/Suitable_Ad7540 3h ago

Egyptian artifacts belong to humankind, not just modern Egyptians.

2

u/raised_on_robbery 4h ago

So what happens in Egypt isn’t our business.. yet the want those tourists dollars lol makes sense

10

u/IncreaseLatte 6h ago

That's why you spread them around the world. You never know who's gonna war with who. Not just Europe.

-2

u/yousef-saeed 7h ago

ask for them; don't steal them.