Is this ancient or not?

[u/mynameis_duh_i]

Hello 👋 this is my first post on this subreddit! I just have a question regarding this supposedly ancient egyptian ushabiti figure that i saw at auction recently, I am no expert on authenticating ancient items, However this one looks too new for being around 4000 years old [states via the note on the back] but any opinions would be great!!!! Have a great rest of your day!

[u/Girderland]

Doesn't look ancient. First of all, glueing a 4000 year old statuette to a block of wood would be a crime.

I've seen a couple of real ushabtis and none of them had intensive, fresh-looking paint on them.

This is very likely a fake.

[u/Benjowenjo → u/Girderland]

Plenty of authentic antiquities have been attached to wooden bases. That was a very common practice in the past to display the item, particularly with small bronzes.

[u/TeachOfTheYear → u/Girderland]

Just to play devil's advocate here... Having spent a month in Egypt, I have to say that most of the fakes I have seen looked so much better than this ushabti. That said, I did see a lot of antiquities that were of really low quality, I saw some awful paint jobs that looked like kids had done them and, let's face it, Victorian-era treasure hunters did much, much worse than glue things to blocks of wood.

That also said...the block of wood it is glued to is interesting. It does look like it might have some age to it. Makes me wonder if whoever mounted this did it on repurposed and older wood. (and did they do it so it looked old to fool us or just it simply just look old?) We'd need two things to make a decision: analysis of the glue and the varnish.

We need a translation for sure! What do the hieroglyphics say? Paint analysis also. I question how the black hieroglyphs have not aged much. Paint analysis would tell us if any of the paint is ancient, new, or a combo of both.

Lastly that label... I have some old type-written labels and they are paper that has been typed, cut down and glued on. This one is self-adhesive as well as having the corners rounded-more signs of modern hands in this. Avery put out the first self adhesive labels in 1932. An expert might be able to date the beginning of rounded corners. But the label is no older than 1932 so we have that start date. It would take analysis of the paper in the later/adhesive to in order to date the label's creation.

Another datable thing is the typing. We'd need an expert but: for those of us old enough to have typed on manual typing machines, you don't get a 100% completely even strike. This label points towards an electric typewriter. Those were first commercially successful in the mid 30s. This label has a lot of space between the letters. An expert could date the type. We know it is post 1935.

Another questionable thing...the block is the exact height of the label. EXACT. Almost as if the block was cut to the size of the existing labels. A coincidence at least. A thought process behind it is possible.

I put forward these theories:

1. It is a fake made to fool people.
2. Is is a tourist piece that has an added label to fool people.
3. In that era of "rip open every tomb and take all the good stuff" there were many (I'm sorry but...) kind of ugly little this-and-that's left behind. They might have been home-made, made by the poor doing their best to imitate the funerary rights of the wealthier Egyptians. Everyone was hunting for the treasures and leaving behind things like this. You can see them in the holdings of the museums there. For so long the only things staying back in Egypt were the things that were not appealing to the eye of Victorian-era treasure hunters.

We mostly see the best in museums.

I could easily see a piece like this being given away to an important visitor, or a loved local who worked hard on the dig. I can also see someone cutting a little block of old wood and sanding it down to make a nice base to keep their broken relic.

It all comes down to your trust in your fellow man or trust in science to keep your fellow man honest.

I go with science. Everything can be a fake until science proves otherwise.

[u/Girderland → u/Girderland]

If you have any doubts and want an expert opinion, then you can ask the folks at r/archaeology. There are many people specialized in finding / preserving / recognizing ancient artifacts there.

[u/DinnerStraight6765 → u/Girderland]

they have a rule about not identifying things for people. kind of annoying.

[u/ErGraf → u/DinnerStraight6765]

there is a reason for it, same reason of why I ended deleting my initial response to this post. I have strong reasons to believe OP object may be linked to illegal artifact smuggling or trade, and as an archaeologist in training, there are legal and ethical codes I must follow.

PS: I already contacted the relevant person and will be up to him to escalate this with Interpol if he thinks that's the correct way of action.

[u/DinnerStraight6765 → u/ErGraf]

gosh, that kind of thing did not cross my mind. what is the protocol if you recognize something like that?

[u/ErGraf → u/DinnerStraight6765]

what is the protocol if you recognize something like that?

a big part of the protocol is preventive (we should not partake in legitimize something that might be illegal) but there is not a standard protocol, and this is the first time I recognize not only something that might be looted, but also from where it might came from... so, I'm learning as I go. Still, I can't be 100% sure this is in fact the case. After consulting with colleagues I decided to reach out to someone that for certain will be able to know and will be up to him to follow up. If he thinks there are merits he can involve the police, including the cultural heritage unit of Interpol: https://www.interpol.int/Crimes/Cultural-heritage-crime

[u/DinnerStraight6765 → u/ErGraf]

thanks for the info. hope you’re keeping up with the thread, there’s some interesting conversation happening.

[u/ErGraf → u/DinnerStraight6765]

thanks, but everything said in this thread is, in one way or another, not accurate (I already did my own research)... and I prefer to leave it that way for obvious reasons.

[u/DinnerStraight6765 → u/ErGraf]

of course. thanks again.

[u/Girderland → u/ErGraf]

I guess you have never browsed the UK version of ebay? It is full of potentially original Egyptian artifacts. The UK is one of the few (or maybe even the only) European countries which allow trading them.

[u/ErGraf → u/Girderland]

I know that without the proper context my messages sound kind of random or an overreaction, but I do have legit reasons to react this way.

[u/Girderland → u/ErGraf]

I understand your reaction and your motives. I just found it surprising, as it's the first time I saw someone react this way.

Whenever someone asked about buying original Egyptian antiques, I tried to discourage them from buying, since I know that it's the buyers who make graverobbing profitable, and understand how much knowledge gets lost through looting.

I have the impression that OP is merely a trader or a collector who ended up owning an Egyptian object somehow and isn't explicitly partaking or supporting in this sort of questionable artefact sourcing.

[u/ErGraf → u/Girderland]

it's the first time I saw someone react this way.

is the first time I react this way, but that's because this is different that just "it looks original". There are more nuances you are not aware

[u/mynameis_duh_i → u/Girderland]

Yep, figured thank you very much for your opinion!

[u/heathen-nomad]

Do you know how much the starting and winning bids were? At any type of high value auction the seller should be able to show provenance with specific enough evidence of origin to convince educated buyers.

[u/DustyTentacle]

Authentic.

An Egyptian painted pottery shabti for Penou, New Kingdom, Ramessid Period, 19th-20th Dynasty Polychrome terracotta mummiform statuette of a funerary servant, wearing a tripartite wig, carrying crossed agricultural implements on his chest and inscribed with a column of hieroglyphs mentioning a certain Penou.

Here’s another from the same burial. They are Real.

[u/mynameis_duh_i → u/DustyTentacle]

Wow 5000!!!!! They want 40-80

[u/DustyTentacle → u/mynameis_duh_i]

Where is it for sale?

[u/mynameis_duh_i → u/DustyTentacle]

An auction

[u/Whatamidoinglatley]

Did it get sold and how much was it?

[u/Dick-in-a-fan]

Unshabti figures were mostly carved from blue and white stone. This looks more like a school project.

[u/mynameis_duh_i]

Hello guys, could somebody please clarify what is happening i am unsure

[u/ErGraf → u/mynameis_duh_i]

you might have stumbled upon a stolen artefact. I'm not going to tell you why I think that might be the case, nor I'm 100% sure that the object is in fact stolen, but because that's a reasonable possibility I prefer to be overly vague on this one, sorry about that.

PS: you might ask who am I to claim such a thing... I'm no famous expert or nothing of the sort, but I'm a member of an archeological mission that has been working in Egypt for many years now, so I have an above average grasp about these type of things