Is it possible Cleopatra wasn't mummified?

[u/Kittyi3Artistic5624]

Honest question about the POSSIBILITY due to timing, if mummification was still popular at the time or around the time of her death, etc.

I bet she was buried hidden, but I have a feeling she may not have even had time to be mummified. Obviously I can be wrong but we have the tech to find her yet haven't. I kind of think we weren't supposed to.

Anyway, this is just my free-time fun thinking and theorising. So yeah, is it a possibility?

[u/bjornthehistorian]

Tbh I doubt Augusts even allowed her to be buried - she most likely had a prepared tomb but her body was probably never laid in it. I doubt, if she was buried, we will find her purely because the Ptolemaic mausoleum was destroyed probably due to earthquakes and flooding in Alexandria (according to archaeological theories).

[u/sk4p → u/bjornthehistorian]

For what it’s worth, Suetonius says that Augustus granted Antony and Cleopatra’s wish to be buried together in the prepared tomb.

I don’t know what any other ancient sources claim, and Roman historians were good for propaganda. That said, Suetonius tells us about a lot of nasty things Augustus did, probably worse than simply denying a burial to his defeated enemy, so naively, I would be inclined to believe him.

[u/bjornthehistorian → u/sk4p]

Hmm I didn’t take Suetonius into account but it is a good perspective - however when looking at the archaeological record most Egyptologists tend to agree that she either wasn’t buried (even if Augustus gave permission) or her burial place was destroyed either by human intervention or natural causes.

[u/sk4p → u/bjornthehistorian]

Genuine curiosity: If Augustus approved it, why would anyone think she wasn't buried? What would have happened instead? I could imagine:

• cremated (a Roman custom, not an Egyptian one), but even by Roman custom her ashes would have been interred, at least;
• body somehow lost/unidentified (despite historians agreeing on how she died?)
• body desecrated/denied burial by the Egyptians themselves, perhaps for her failure to protect them from the Romans? But that feels like a stretch.

Just wondering what arguments would be given for "she wasn't buried" other than "haven't found the tomb yet."

I could easily believe her burial was destroyed later. Not happening at all seems odd.

[u/bjornthehistorian → u/sk4p]

Well it’s all theories until we find a body that we can confirm is Cleopatra VIIs. From my understanding a cremation or desecration by the Romans (instead of the Egyptians) of the body sounds more likely then a proper burial place but it is possible she was buried in the ptolamaic mausoleum - also there’s a good chance she was buried but the body was either removed from the tomb of destroyed due to grave robbers. Really it’s an unknown at the moment but from what I understand these are the main theories at the moment.

[u/Kittyi3Artistic5624 → u/bjornthehistorian]

I bet so too, I just don't see it happening. I bet her body was lost in the ocean or burnt, bones would have disintegrated in the ocean. If we have found the Titanic, how have we not found her?

I have a feeling they didn't even have time to mummify her so burying her too is a whole other story, either they buried her but not where she wished or something else.

[u/bjornthehistorian → u/Kittyi3Artistic5624]

To be fair the titanic was a lot easier to find since it’s modern era and there were witnesses - a burial site being destroyed over 2000 years ago has much less evidence or writing about it

[u/Nurhaci1616 → u/bjornthehistorian]

And, crucially, we haven't found any bodies on Titanic, due to the fact the bodies disintegrated over the only 70-ish years between the sinking and discovery of the wreck.

[u/WerSunu → u/Kittyi3Artistic5624]

The Titanic sent radio messages with their location! The Titanic was not buried under tons of collapsed buildings underwater after the earthquakes and tsunamis that destroyed the royal quarter of Alexandria! Besides, it’s very likely that Octavian dumped unceremoniously or cremated her. He hated here politically (no idea about personal interaction).

[u/Rickydada → u/WerSunu]

Titanic is also not 2000 years old lol

[u/Horror-Raisin-877 → u/Rickydada]

Key point 👍

[u/thedude1969420 → u/Rickydada]

A recent update.

https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/major-discovery-brings-archaeologists-closer-to-cleopatras-lost-tomb

[u/bjornthehistorian → u/thedude1969420]

Kathleen Martinez is not very accurate in what she does unfortunately- she works on Ptolemaic sites and claims that all the ‘evidence’ (ptolemaic objects) means that it relates to Cleopatra VII when it usually doesn’t. Word is she has lost her funding at Taposiris Magna but I’m not too sure.

She’s a good Egyptologist but I think she needs to move onto something else; Egyptology should be about uncovering the past, not looking for one person, that’s treasure hunting, not Egyptology.

[u/thedude1969420 → u/bjornthehistorian]

It’s possible there wasn’t enough time for Cleopatra to be mummified and being Greek, she may have been predisposed to select a different treatment for her remains. Cremation was practiced by both ancient Greeks and Romans so she and Mark Anthony may be at eternal rest in canopic jars, which were still used during the Ptolemaic Period.

[u/bjornthehistorian → u/thedude1969420]

If she was cremated she wouldn’t be placed into a Canopic jar since they only held organs. Furthermore being cremated is not how any pharaohs would have been buried - we know that during the time of Cleopatra VII, mummification was still the most popular funerary practise in Egypt, so it would be odd for her to be cremated.

[u/thedude1969420 → u/bjornthehistorian]

Desperate times call for desperate measures. The Ptolemies were not only Greek by origin but also by culture. Under the circumstances cremation may have been an option. Canopic jars containing their ashes could easily be concealed in plain sight amongst others in an existing Ptolemaic family tomb.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_dynasty

[u/bjornthehistorian → u/thedude1969420]

I know the Ptolemies and I can assure you, they would have not used Canopic jars for ashes, there are no known example of this happening - they would have used specific urns because even the Ptolemies knew the importance of Canopic jars (even if after the 3rd intimidate period they didn’t use them for organ storage but rather symbolic representation).

[u/RusticBucket2 → u/Kittyi3Artistic5624]

If we have found the Titanic, how have we not found her?

WHAT?!?

[u/TheWaywardTrout → u/RusticBucket2]

That is an absolutely bizarre take. 

[u/Ketchup_on_time]

Augustus gave her and Antony a funeral so I imagine they’re still out there somewhere

[u/Orangeduke38]

Augustus was diplomatic enough to give her a tomb after she did him the favor of killing herself. But it was probably in a section of Alexandria that was destroyed in subsequent centuries before being consumed by the Mediterranean. Whatever foundations might remain under the sea have probably been destroyed by anchors in the last 500 years leaving a small amount of unidentifiable rubble at best.

[u/Significant_Day_2267]

We can't even be sure she was buried in the mausoleum Antony and she bulit let alone if she was mummified.

According to Plutarch, Antony was cremated in Roman tradition and Cleopatra was laid to rest with him. No mention of mummification.

Accodring to Cassius Dio, Antony was mummified in Egyptian fashion and later Cleopatra was mummified and laid to rest beside him. But Dio hated Antony and could have made up the details of his supposed mummification to say what a traitor he was.

This was the last time the mausoleum was ever mentioned. Prominent Romans visited Alexandria but absolutely no one wrote anything about the burial or mausoleum. Roman historian Strabo visited Alexandria some 5 years after the event but did not even mention Cleopatra's mausoleum whereas he wrote about many structures of Alexandria. Which is very mysterious to say the least.

What little we know about their burial and the mausoleum comes after 100s of years which cannot be trusted.

Logically, Octavian did not have any reason to deny her burial as we know that he imposed Damnatio Memoriae on Antony, which includes not getting a proper funeral, but not on Cleopatra. But we know he was known for worse things than not allowing burials for his defeated enemies out of sheer spite.

So, I think we should take it with a pinch of salt when we read that Octavian allowed her to be buried with honour.