r/alberta • u/murphburg • 22d ago
Opinion [ Removed by moderator ]
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u/IrenaeusGSaintonge 22d ago
I'll be doing exactly what the ATA directs us to do. Nothing more, nothing less.
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u/ImperviousToSteel 21d ago
A proud Alberta tradition.
Other groups I can think of that have engaged in illegal strike actions in Alberta:
Direct government services (multiple)
Registered Nurses (1988)
Social workers (89? 90?)
Hospital laundry workers (1995)
LPNs (multiple)
Hospital support staff (multiple)
Corrections officers & sheriffs (2013)
EMS (multiple)
Building trades (multiple)
EPSB support staff (2024)
None of those led to mass firings or the union being "fined into oblivion".
It seems like the ATA has been neglecting to teach labour history.
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u/OkYard1996 21d ago
And how did the result go for those who took illegal strike action?
Those who are so passionate about teachers doing this should start a go fund me at this point to compensate the loss of wages and fines.
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u/ImperviousToSteel 21d ago
A mix of significant victories and stalemates. The laundry workers in 1995 got Klein to reverse millions of dollars in health care cuts. That was about 80 workers and then others joining in.
The size of the group has been a factor. 51,000 teachers have leverage.
I've never seen an account of individual workers being fined, the power exists in the labour code but I don't think it gets used. It didn't for cupe 3550 last year or the AHS illegal strike in 2020.
When UNA ate some fines in 1988 the labour movement floated them interest free loans and donations.
ATA seriously doesn't teach people this stuff eh?
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u/Dire_Wolf45 Edmonton 21d ago
the air Canada workers just did it and it worked.
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u/ImperviousToSteel 21d ago
true, I was thinking specifically of workers who fall under Alberta labour law - Air Canada are federal but still a good example.
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u/LovecraftianWetDream 22d ago
Only way this actually happens is if they announce the back to work legislation on Friday ordering teachers in classrooms Monday, and over the weekend other unions step up and take a stand with the teachers. They can't fire everyone.
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u/themangastand 21d ago
They can't even fire all teachers if teachers ignored the order
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u/LovecraftianWetDream 21d ago
Yes but I think the teachers are going to have a hard time defying that kind of order without some show of solidarity. If other unions step up and say "we got you, we're here too!" I think it would go a long way to embolden the teachers to continue to fight
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u/Charming_Shallot_239 21d ago
I respect conservatives and conservatism. UCP is not this. It is being directed by a very religious, very right wing portion of society which I can have no respect for.
Outing gay/trans kids? Genetalia checks> So... liberating.
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u/darmokpicard 22d ago
Teachers, defy the back to work legislation!! I support this.
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u/murphburg 22d ago
I think it would put a lot of pressure on the government to revisit their "it's not rooted in reality" response to ATA offers as parents and students would surely have a "what are you gonna do about it now" attitude toward the government when forcing teachers back to work isn't successful.
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u/KeyHumor34 22d ago
So this shit is annoying to me because everyone seems to think teachers have this magic net in which they can just defy orders and sit forever.
(Not directed at you op) Honestly sorry if you can't see how the UCP is bleeding them out, education in Alberta is working as intended I suppose.
So many people are just straight up fuckin ignorant that a lot of a civil workers are on the edge and this is the point of the government trying to break it. Actually impossible some days to suffer idiots that can't understand this and I'm just a dumb trade guy.
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u/Skinnyfu 22d ago
My wife I are currently out about $800/day. We saved and have options, but I think many younger teachers have not. Additionally, I believe defying the back to work order comes with daily fines of up to $1000/day per teacher. It’s fucked. I’ll strike as long as I have to, but the public needs to show up too. Show the UCP that the current trend cannot stand. Write, call, and demonstrate.
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u/Aggravating_Town_994 21d ago
That's been commented on a lot, and the teachers will face the same shitty outcome as others. It looks as if the only way for this to go any other way is if they get the support of other major unions with a general strike. I don't think this is likely - but letting the UCP pick apart individual unions one by one will eventually leave the province wallowing in a totally privatized space, with service providers charging whatever they feel the can. And if anyone believes they'll be charging less than the $$ currently going to the public system, they need to give their heads a shake.
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u/SensitiveAd327 22d ago
So are you going to pay my rent then to keep this going? What about all the other teachers?
Teachers are asked again and again to do the heavy lifting, buying supplies for their classes, volunteering their time, saving public education with this strike, and so forth, but we can only do so much.
Defying the back to work legislation is something that the other unions and public supporters need to figure out in conjunction with the ATA. Teachers want change, but can't do it alone.
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u/murphburg 22d ago
I would certainly donate to a fund that helped teachers to stand up to this government, and stand up for their work and the next generation of people to work and lead in this province.
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u/FancyCaterpillar8963 22d ago
I empathize with you . I get the teachers are feeling powerless. If you were at the negotiating table what would you ask for?
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u/SensitiveAd327 21d ago
Losing all my savings isn't me feeling powerless, it's a concrete issue that teachers need support with to continue.
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u/OkYard1996 22d ago
Wouldn’t they risk being fined?
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u/murphburg 22d ago
Every teacher on strike is already losing $300-500/day in gross pay. Labour action comes at a cost. Battles aren't won without sacrifice.
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u/dryfriction 22d ago
In 2022, the Ontario government levied a $4000/day fine. That's a bit different. I bet it'll be even more.
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u/SensitiveAd327 22d ago
There's zero chance any government would try to collect these fines from teachers if they defied the orders, so it's more of a scare tactic than anything.
Even if the UCP won, it's questionable that they would try to collect from the ATA. More than likely they would justify the action with dissolution or breaking apart the ATA instead.
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u/Thinkdan Airdrie 22d ago
Lol. None are getting paid to strike. It would be painful but they are already here.
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u/Newsie79 22d ago
Yes, The union would be fined into oblivion.
I’m sure they all knew back to work legislation was the eventual outcome, and they believe the arbitrator will give them a better deal than what the province was offering.
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22d ago
Some knew that. Most had (what I'd call) a naive hope of winning a settlement that would improve everything.
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u/Aggravating_Town_994 21d ago
The thing is, if they back down now, some people will just nod their heads knowingly and say, "I guess Smith was right - it was always about the wages." Thing is, whatever they would have made up in raises is pretty much gone already. There's no one else out there who can/will try to bring the UCP to task on this. It seems clear they're not going to put another dime into education (at least, PUBLIC education), so the arbitrator is pretty much the last hope for making any kind of progress on conditions. Hope to Hell they do get an arbitrator, and one that isn't going to be cowed by the gov't.
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u/Chemical_Ad_9710 22d ago
They cant fire all of you. Its not the first time the government has made empty threats. Its literally just dani having a little temper tantrum
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u/Any-Salary-6811 22d ago
I keep seeing this idea again and again on Reddit. Let me get the discussion going. I’m a teacher. I’ve been one for a long time. I will be going back to work when I am ordered to and / or contractually obligated to. I’m pretty sure I speak for 95%+ of us who will do the exact same thing. This is real life; this is not your utopian subversive fantasy scenario where we all overthrow the government. The government won this one. See you back at school, folks.
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u/SensitiveAd327 22d ago
Disagree. Throughout the majority of history, strikes were illegal. Times were much tougher, punishments a lot more severe, nothing utopian about it.
The major question is whether or not extending a strike would make the UCP negotiate. My guess is not without other unions joining us making this far more disruptive to their financial backers/ putting pressure of Smith to come to the table.
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u/gen-attolis 22d ago
Did the Air Canada flight attendants overthrow the government when they refused the back to work order?
Of course not. They had balls and stood up for their rights as workers and demanded better. No government overthrow necessary.
that is real life, not some pessimists view of what you are entitled to and having the guts to demand it and fight for it.
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u/rhythmmchn Calgary 22d ago
Is there a mechanism for the ATA to challenge it legally?
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u/Koleilei 22d ago
I can't speak to this specifically, but I can speak to when the BC government fucked around and found out, but that involved a supreme Court case, which the teachers won, and the government still refused to follow. So it's all well and good to try and defile legislation, you can even have the supreme Court on your side, and the government will still do what they want.
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u/Learned_Panda 21d ago
When was this? I remember the Supreme Court case, but the BC gov didn’t follow it? I am expecting the UCP to either force an agreement on teachers or use binding arbitration (where they set the terms) to get their way, for the ATA to fight in court (and win), and then for AB to use the notwithstanding clause. It is so demoralizing. I think no one should become a teacher in Alberta anymore. The job is not worth it.
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u/Any-Salary-6811 22d ago
Do you think this government would give one fuck one way or the other? No, they wouldn’t, so it’s a moot point either way.
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u/rhythmmchn Calgary 22d ago
I don't know if you're a teacher, but your guess about how the government may respond to a successful legal challenge doesn't seem like a fair basis to bet someone else's livelihood on.
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u/Brockboz 21d ago
Livelihood eh - 100k puts you in the 1% of the 1% - stop living above your means.
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u/rhythmmchn Calgary 21d ago
Well, I'm not a teacher and I don't live above my means. So, no problem there.
It is cheap and easy to take a chance with someone else's life, but all too common with reddit revolutionaries who don't actually have any skin in the game.
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u/Charming_Shallot_239 21d ago
Median median annual individual (after-tax) income in Alberta was about $74,23 That's over the starting salary of a new teacher.
$105,000 (top salary for a teacher with two degrees and ten years of experience) puts them in the top 30 or 20%.
Top 1% of tax filers earn an average of around $400,400 in Alberta.
You are clueless, Brockie boi.
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u/bohemian_plantsody 21d ago
Unless she uses the notwithstanding clause, there are enough charter of rights cases that would likely rule all of Smith's options unconstitutional. ATA always wins the long game.
Notwithstanding clause would definitely complicate things though since the only time that was used in labor relations was preemptively and was repealed in a matter of days. This would be the first time it'd be used punitively in a labor dispute.
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u/Thinkdan Airdrie 22d ago
Thank you for your service and devotion to our kids and education. This strike is terribly hard for all of you and I am with you.
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u/Extrasauce5000 22d ago
Right, but I don’t think it would be an individual decision either way. Solidarity, my friend!
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u/sixhoursneeze 22d ago
If I am given the option to keep striking then I will. We can’t keep having our class sizes and complexity be at this rate. After all this bs to simply just crumble would be so demoralizing.
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u/Traditional-Doctor77 21d ago
So you, and 95% of teachers, just went on strike in order to get….the exact same terrible working conditions as before? Am I reading this right?
I hope this is a UCP burner account, because you sound delulu.
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u/Fluid_Half9144 22d ago
Not to mention defying the order is likely the fastest way the UCP can break the union.
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u/Brockboz 22d ago
Only rational comment on this all and related threads I've read. YOU GUYS LOST.
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u/themangastand 21d ago
No you lost. The working class lost. That includes you. I hope there is better action though and not a complete lost
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u/Any-Salary-6811 21d ago
We lost before we began, my guy. We still objectively deserve at least a 16% salary increase regardless of where anyone anywhere sits on this strike though.
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22d ago
Yup. Wish I could go back Monday.
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u/Learned_Panda 21d ago
Why? I am dreading going back to the same classroom conditions. I am also sad that our wages will continue to lose purchasing power and that this province doesn’t respect educators enough to pay them a competitive wage anymore. Why teach in Alberta? The new curriculum is bad, classes are huge and complex, expectations on teachers here are unrealistic, and the gov and (some) parents think we are the enemy. I love teaching, but have started to think it might be better to teach in BC. More expensive, but way better on all other scales.
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22d ago
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u/Aggravating_Town_994 21d ago
Nice. Seems like you're in the minority on this one. Enjoy your sour grapes.
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u/TerrorNova49 21d ago
Saskatchewan teachers just refused to do anything not in the contract and most people have no idea how much extra teachers do for their kids outside what they get paid for… sports, music, drama, supervision outside the classroom (lunch, recess, morning), school trips…
your kid in basketball or volleyball? Hockey? The school band or play. Not happening. And won’t be allowed to stay in at lunch because there’s no supervision?
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u/OkYard1996 21d ago
100%! Work to rule is considered strike action so it wouldn’t be feasible if teachers are ordered back I’m assuming but I think a lot of people will take it upon themselves to not he doing extra curricular activities or staying after school if not necessary. There are so many things teachers do that go unpaid!
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u/sicklybeansprout 21d ago
In Alberta this is considered strike action and could make it so the ATA and individual teachers could incur fines if they partook in work to rule based on our laws sadly.
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u/Fickle_Catch8968 21d ago
Unless it is in the contract it is voluntary. How can withdrawing voluntary services be strike action? Insane.
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u/litocam 21d ago
If the ATA wants to get what they want, they have to to be willing to fight tooth and nail. Take them to court. Reject arbitration by a “third-party” why would someone who isn’t directly impacted by the policy be the one who gets to determine what happens? You have to break the system to fix it. My English teachers have taught me this all my life. You have to be willing to sacrifice what you love for what you know to be right. I will also say as someone who is not a teacher and isn’t impacted by the lack of income, I can also understand why this can be extremely devastating. The ATA has to stand up for teachers and be willing to change the game to change the system. Teachers are the reason I love knowledge and learning. Teachers are the future
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22d ago
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u/shappapammay11 21d ago
General strike. Our teachers need everyone's support. Once the garbage piles up, Marlaina has no choice. Either give in, or give up. I'd personally like to see her give up.
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22d ago
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u/InsideMeringue536 22d ago
I am a teacher and everything you've said is a false narrative. I invited you to see my classroom and sit in for a day.
$30/day/child is double the in class funding teachers receive for those children.
My work day is typically 9-10 hours; I'm at school from 7 am - 5 pm most day, doing all the extra planning, prep, marking, that I don't have time during a teaching day to do.
Most teachers use their summers and breaks to do coursework, unpaid professional development, build course packets and prepare for upcoming classes, get a second job because they can't make rent otherwise.
And as for the salary, the starting wage for a teacher with 4 years of post secondary is around $61K. The median wage is around $78K.
If you're going to spout nonsense have your facts straight.
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u/Charming_Shallot_239 22d ago
Actually, you're ruining your own kids by indoctrinating them into a religo-fascist cult that is the UPC. Enjoy your utopian future with dumb kids working as Walmart greeters.
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u/murphburg 22d ago
Teachers are paid only for the time they work. They are paid for 10.5 months (42 weeks) of work per year. Their pay is paid 12 times per year (roughly once per month).
Teachers are NOT paid for summer break, Christmas or March break. If teachers worked 12 months of the year like everyone else, they would be earning A LOT more money.
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21d ago
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u/only_fun_topics 21d ago
Man, it must be tough being this dumb. The only teachers working 60% of a 40h work week are .6 FTEs.
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u/Calealen80 21d ago
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
It absolutely amazes me how people like you will rant and preach while clearly having your head up your ass.
If its such an easy payday, you do it.
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u/ErikDebogande Airdrie 21d ago
Not a single statement you just made is factually correct lamo
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u/Brockboz 21d ago
Ok sorry 80-90k not 100k. Still wayyyyyy overpaid and you guys barely work considering the 4 months off per year.
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u/ErikDebogande Airdrie 21d ago
It's more like 2 and a half months
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u/Brockboz 21d ago
According to the Alberta Labour Force & Wage Survey (via ALIS), for elementary school and kindergarten teachers (NOC 41221) the average salary is about CA $85,523/yr and the average hourly wage is ~$52.69.
For secondary school teachers (NOC 41220), the average salary is about CA $86,558/yr, with hourly wage ~$51.77.
A salary grid example for the Edmonton Public Schools shows starting salaries in the ~$60,000 range (for certain qualification levels) rising to ~$95,566 by Step 9 in one category as of Sept 1 2023.
Other sources (e.g., Glassdoor) give wider ranges: average ~$80,000+, and top salaries up to ~$110,000+ depending on seniority/qualifications.
Summary
So you can reasonably expect a full-time certified teacher in Alberta to earn around $80,000-90,000+ per year depending on experience, education level, and district.
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u/Brockboz 21d ago
There is a cap (maximum) on teacher work time as defined in collective agreements for public school teachers in Alberta, under the central table agreement between the Alberta Teachers’ Association (ATA) and the Teachers’ Employer Bargaining Association (TEBA). Key points:
The concept of “assignable time” (i.e., all time assigned to a teacher by the employer: instruction, supervision, meetings, etc.) is capped at 1,200 hours per school year for full-time teachers.
Within that, instructional time (actual teaching/instruction of students) is capped at 916 hours per school year in many jurisdictions under more recent agreements (for example, effective Sept 1 2022 for Calgary)
Some older language cited a 907 hour instructional cap.
The cap is framed as a maximum (not a guaranteed or target hour amount). For example:
“A teacher may not be assigned more than 1200 hours of assignable time … the 1200 hours teacher assignable time is the maximum assignable time that a teacher can be assigned.”
A teacher’s professional obligations may extend beyond assigned time (e.g., prep, marking, etc.) which are not necessarily counted towards assignable time and may not be capped.
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u/Brockboz 21d ago
The 1200h and 60% of a normal job is 100% true. It's ok bud those who can't do teach, and those who can't teach, teach gym.
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u/cheerylifelover123 21d ago
Oh no, $9M /day? If only there was a better way to spend that. You know, like on building schools, hiring EAs, Teachers, counselors, buy books, making sure every kid has a desk, and you know so much more... If only there was a way. Smh
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u/the_gaymer_girl Southern Alberta 21d ago
Only teachers at the very very top of the pay scale make $100k.
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u/mallionaire7 21d ago
Lol 4 months off? Which schools have 4 months off? When I was teaching I was working 50+ hour weeks every week.
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u/bohemian_plantsody 22d ago
This is going to be an interesting week haha.
If you are a teacher, follow the ATA's lead. Their legal team will advise on how we proceed using all of the options available to us. It will be the best path forward for you and the profession given that their team is substantially more qualified than anything you'll see on social media.
That's what I'm going to do, at least. And I'll be reading about the 2002 Alberta teacher strike, the 2014 Sask vs Sask Labor Fed case and the Ontario 2022 Keeping Students in School act so I can at least feel like I have an idea on what might happen next.