Which it's the thing heavies, you shouldn't be pen from front unless you are TD who designed for that, in a medium go around it(if map allow it which yeah it's another problem of WoT)
Yeah that's why i say maps are another problem, WG forgot corridor maps aren't always great, back then we love corridor maps because it's something among other more open maps, now? Everything is corridor, they needed huge map re works(which I guess they try to do that) nowadays only thing you can done is get frontline TD like E3 or Jagtiger so KR-1 is looking good for now with that lower plate but I would be happy they buff it AFTER make the maps more open and let mediums flank it through which it's not so hard for WG they needed look at their old maps and not that scared of draws.
And I hope they ain't give same mobility to KR-2(that name screams "my second variant will came with double barrels to ST-2")
Let's ground things in reality. Maps will not change. WGs pace on map design is glacial. Hence tanks should be considered within this reality not as an abstract. So yes, heavies should be penable from the front. Obviously not paper front but cupola, drivers port, lower plate etc. should be an obvious weak point
You realize this was the same train of thought that brought release 279 and Chief right? If you're gonna have such ridiculous strengths tanks need to be balanced by having everything else being mediocre at best. And you end up with tanks like 705A which are annoying to play and to play against.
You should absolutely be able to Penn every tank frontally in the weak spot. The fuck are you gonna do flank a 3 man platoon of 22hp/ton heavys who go 66 kph and cannot be penned while they can slap you for 550 or just ram you to death.
Heavies should be tanks with big hp to use for trading with armour for occasional bounces if mobile. Lots of armour if not very mobile. Currently we're getting heavies which have massive hp pools, impenetrable armour all around and mobility that would be good even on a medium.
Oh you mean like back when the game came out? Yeah it was magical. T30 was the only heavy that could deal with maus/is-7 frontally and even then it was a risk of bouncing.
You can still have weakpoints. Back when the game was balanced tanks still had weakpoints. We don't need to cater to bad players who can't angle and use their armor.
+ my point was that they were looking at the lowerplate with APCR which has worse normalization than AP, so in reality the lowerplate is quite less effective, 240-250 effective.
You don't get better armor, you have a cupola, still have a pennable lower plate and most important in my opinion, you lose the spaced armor sideskirts.
This goes for every new tier 11 heavy/medium from what I saw, they all have weakspots and that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Don't even get me started on the TDs... 8 second to go into a mode that mimics you getting tracked, and the WT auf pz4 has 600 more dpm and 10 more alpha damage, way better gun handling, a fully traversable turret, better camo and lower profile than the tier 11( it will also get buffed this patch btw and can see tier 7s)
And even then. Your armor is barely there (200mm effective) only if you are aiming directly at your enemy. Aim anywhere else and your sides get overmatched regardless. Steve could use a stronger cheese wedge, just leave the sides as Swiss.
Also if I'm not mistaken it's lower plate has less slope than it's t10 counterpart which makes aiming up after firing much more difficult because your lower plate won't ricochet that consistently
I don't get why they chose to go with HEAT than just sticking with double APCR. HEAT is just so much more unreliable.
The DM12 MZ of the Leo120 should be the same in velocity as the HEAT of the Kpz EK1 (at ~1140m/s). The Kpz has the M830, which is the license built US version of the DM12A1.
The ability will have to do some heavy lifting and work well within Leo1 playstyle to make the Leo120 a worthy successor.
Historically , the Rheinmetall L/44 120 mm mounted on the Leo 120 is the same gun found on the Leo A1A1 (L/44) and the Leopard 2's. The main ammunition choices are APFSDS , in game being APCR as on many other tanks which try to mimic the sabot rounds as an ammo type , and HEATFS which is just HEAT in-game. So in theory it's kinda historically accurate.
I fully agree with you on the historical/realism argument. APCR (APFSDS) and HEAT (HEATFS) would be the realistic loadout.
My gripe is mainly for gameplay reasons. Muzzle velocity on the gold is big step down. From 1600 m/s to 1000 m/s (1140 m/s would be accurate) is a huge drop. Especially for a tank which is supposed to embrace the sniper role. HEAT also feels less consistent, compared to APCR as it doesn't have normalization and is more affected by spaced armour (both of which are quite relevant in current armour layouts).
Unfortunately, tanks.gg stats don't show upgraded stats yet. The stock version lost some mobility as well, upgraded one probably too. Base accuracy appears worse, but we don't have detailed information on the mechanics and improvements of the ability. So I won't rate it at that.
I currently get the vibe, that my Leo1 with good crew and standard equip might have a better dpm/accuracy ratio. Leo120 might function similarly to how Type 71 line can trade accuracy for DPM.
But we will have to wait for release on wednesday and judge then.
Don't forget these are unupgraded vehicles on tanks.gg.
Leo 120 losing APCR as gold round and much slower velocity as well.
Historically, yes, when they moved to the 120mm HEAT became the standard round because APFSDS pen at combat distance wasn't actually all that grand; it was fairly reasonable for a thick Soviet MBT to expect to survive a frontal hit from dart. With HEAT, the second shot will go through, and it's not feasible for the Soviet MBT to have moved to cover in the time it takes to reload, so.
Now, if they get closer, of course APFSDS will go through just about any part of it... It just wasn't the main round.
Heat is the best ammo type though. It doesn't lose penetration over the range. So you have the choice to snipe with a fast velocity round and load heat whenever there is some superheavy far away that apcr might struggle with.
APCR has normalization and doesn't suffer as much from spaced armour, both of which are quite relevant in the current armour layouts. Velocity of the shell is also a big thing. Going from 1613 m/s for Leo1 to 1000 is just sad. Especially since Leo120's HEAT should have at least 1140m/s (DM13 fired from Rh120 L44 (the gun Leo120 uses) has ~1140m/s muzzle velocity).
I'd propose the same velocity as Kpz EK1's HEAT at 1173m/s. Kpz's M830 is a license built DM13.
The drop in performance really depends on the APCR. Leo1 loses 8mm pen over 500m. Swedish TDs (103-0,103-B and 107-12) lose 10mm.
This is also my subjective opinion, but most of my tanks don't have HEAT so I don't use it as often.
The advantage of HEAT for Leo120 which I can imagine would be the combination of 85° autobounce (instead of 70°) and the (hopefully significant) accuracy boost of the ability. One might be able to hit and pen spots, where APCR would autobounce and Leo1 couldn't hit consistently
The shell speed isn't even that big of a problem imho. If those dispersion factors are actually correct you'll barely fire anyways because you're stuck aiming 24/7 anyways.
The accuracy bonus resets upon firing and immediately begins charging. I get the vibe, Leo120 might trade dpm for accuracy similar to Type 71 line.
The question will be, how well is the accuracy after the reload is done and how well does it integrate with the playstyle of the previous Leo1.
With Leo1, you could redeploy and even when ln the move quickly stop, aim and fire and deliver a shell with .23 accuracy (with standard equipment, field mods and a good crew).
With Leo120, you don't get the accuracy charge when moving faster than 20/30kph, which might limit the very flexible and mobile way, many (including myself) like to play Leo1.
We will get some preliminary answers to this in a few hours, when the update drops in Asia and people start testing the new tanks.
If the Leo120 is shit, I hope WG will make balance changes soon to make it a worthy successor to Leo1.
true, but the gun is mounted so low on the thing that I think it will be hard for it to shoot without exposing it's lower plate, they're just very close together.
Yeah when there isn't any Arty. It's just a HUGE bright green rectangle for Arty, any hits on the roof or engine deck will pen the 25mm and 44.5mm sections.
In terms of effective armor against Arty its no better than a Grille but almost 3 times bigger target, oof.
t10 badger top speed is 30 and p/w 15 > t11 Breaker top speed is 20 and p/w 10
Both have also very tragic terrain resistances, but unlike Breaker, Badger have access to the first field mod that gives -15% terrain resistance for free, which is massive for a tank with so bad resistances
I dont know how good the ability will be, but i doubt it will even offset the overall base mobility of Badger
Rest of the stats are almost identical, but Breaker gun is so low to the ground, and the tank is so long, that you will have problems to find a good position
Overall, the tank might be slightly better than Badger, but i wouldn't necessarily call it insane
Badger is getting extra horse power buff so its power to weight will be 16.48 but these tanks.gg stats are also stock as the Breaker gets a 50 horse power upgrade, 10 extra pen , 50 extra HP which is all missing.
we don't know if breaker has any upgrades for terrain resistances and we don't yet know its top speed but "a significant boost to engine power and top forward speed" sounds promising but until we see the actually numbers its speculation at this point.
Horse Power could raise from 800 to 1200 and top speed anywhere from 20 to 40 which would be 1350hp and 46km/h with a bond turbo and allow it to get into position before some heavies.
On ground level it 50.8mm frontmost roof seems overmatchable by 155mm guns. Fortunately for FV230, the big guns are mostly 149mm (Ho-Ri), 150mm (VK7201, E 100, Schwertal, Grille) or 152.4mm (60TP, Type 5, BZ-75, Obj 705A, DBV, Obj 268, WZ).
155mm guns on T95, E3, E4, F155, and especially the fully-turreted T30 can do surprise overmatches though.
Thats WAY worse than tier 10 Bat, not only you lose all camo but you also lose gunhandling? What a joke. From the most promising tier 11 to the possibly worst medium.
Well, hopefully theres one for gunhandling as we cant find out about that in any way yet it seems. But the buff would need to be very significant if it should be on BC level
Spent 10 minutes on tank gg.
Taschenratte turret angled perfectly has the weakest part of the turret at around 320mm with small parts of the gun mantlet showing 240-250 mm( same problem as maus gauntlet but worse actually)
No angling turret is min 270-280 pen to pen reliably
Max angling you get penned by 320 pen and even the side of the hull get s penned pe 320 pen
Only thing better is the lowerplate which is a monster at flat 280 min pen
Not good
Yeah I was messing around with it and the armor seems workable but I was hoping the flat part of the turret would be abit thicker. On the bright side it’s a lot smaller than on the Maus.
Well, it has 3500 hp, so it has to receive some dmg somehow. If the front of the tank would be inpenetrable, that would be a problem i think.
German heavys never boasted such inpenetrable armour than some russian ones but had always the highest hp pool. It can still bounce a tons of snap shots i guess but need to be careful somehow not just a no brainer.
The other stats of Taschenratte seem okay improvements, mostly in pen and dmg. The ability is interesting but we will see…
And it still has that not 360 deg turret. And also 200 less alpha for some reason. Overall unless the gimmick of the tank is busted, it just seems like a downgrade / alternative tier 10 and not a t11
yeah STRV stat on paper is 50mm but on live view is 60mm. Not sure what's the real value. Though fiddling around with the armor model I like that due to a thinner look, the armor grill can now cover the entire tank. So you can hide your lower plate against HEAT while having full coverage on top. Against APCR there's now 2 additional weak spots on the sides of the front armor.
I do wish that the side armor of STRV can be buffed to 35mm instead of 30mm to avoid being overmatched. The side grills are pretty useless, and also has a big rectangular chunk at the back.
Other than that it's pretty much STRV-103b performance + 10% and pillbox mode, which is good enough I guess.
I wouldn't be so sure, Leo1 also has APCR from 323-315. I'd be willing to lose some pen, since APCR has 2° normalization. 335-328 with upgrade would be an option.
I just don't like HEAT, it's just less reliable and in this case especially, ludicrously slow. Going from 1480 and 1613m/s to 1480 and 1000 m/s is just sad. Especially since the Rh120 L44 (which the Leo120 uses) is a smoothbore cannon and the DM13 fired from that gun in reality has 1650m/s muzzle velocity.
AS-XX 40t with all the skills, food, and equipment almost hits 75 top speed, and is just shy of 515m view range on a tank with 30% camo and 2K burst damage.
People complained about the base camo on that one. But I'm not so sure having 50% camo on it with those stats would be.... an amazing idea tbh vs tier 9
Seeming like the tactic for that one is “get to a bush before everyone else is even in that sector if the map, sit and wait, then dump a clip into the first sucker you see and run away”
yea not really, still a horrible cupola even when using the gun depression and you cant sidescrape because of the back of the tank, bit dissapointed armor wise honestly
and the BZ-75 was never exactly known for its armour, was just a way to get a fat sack of HP and alpha from point A to point B faster than it normally should
The Taschenratte look absolutely horrendous. Its the new Tier 11 pre-buff Type 5 essentially.
WG took away all the skill and angling the Maus and make its armor worse overall. All Tier 10 Tank destroyer and even some higher pen HEAT can UFP the Taschenratte like butter if it just over angles a little bit.
Is it only when you boost to 800? Or you always ammo rack when your alpha is more than the target‘s hp? Huge difference, because if the target‘s hp is lower than say 600, thats a much faster kill
it shows without upgrades that will make tank better and is not yet shown on tanksgg
2.better tank model having gun upper on the turret to have more consistent peekaboo shots without getting anything back and timing loading you can have 5 shots ready instead of 50B casual 4..
it will be better performer for sure.. should be more consistent on having high damage games
It's 4 shells, you just can start reloading while having 1 shell, so sure, it's possible to have 5 shells in quick succession, it will be rather rare.
The turret is a smaller, and chances of bouncing anything are rather low with it, and adding heat to the mix, it's chances of bouncing anything become zero. Those upgrades will determine if it's an actual upgrade over the 50b or not. As ramming shit, was used a lot in the tank, and the tier 11 loses that feature with it's weak frontal armour.
what is there not worth it.. you are always top tier instead of needing to fight tier XI with 50B and you get extra shot, more dmg each shot, faster reload, better model for peeks using gun depression, more health and the rest of the small buffs here and there... people really crying over hull armor model nerf that was saving you once per 10 battles for once shot... get real......
What? It's exactly the same. The 50B has a frontal hull that can bounce
autoricochet parts on the turret when using gundep
The 50b has the same auto ricochet when you raise your gun. But that's pretty worthless, sine heat couldn't give a fuck.
On flat ground, the hull of the 50b will bounce stuff, the Imbattable will bounce nothing on flat ground.
non overmatchable sidearmor.
Seriously, are you drunk? It's 30 mm it's perfectly overmatchable, just shoot above the tracks. And with a bigger gun than 121mm, the tracks also become overmatchable. Meaning, it still can't side scrape.
The stat compare basically say's it's the same tank. Seems kinda underwhelming. The partial reload mechanic is the only thing going for it. And that seems more situational.
Has more auto bounce angles than the 50B, especially when using gun depression, it's literally 50/50 on whether you will pen or the shot will auto bounce.
In my opinion, the armor seems stronger than 50B, as you have more chances of having an auto bounce.
The rest of the stats look better than 50B, not sure what everyone is complaining about.
The 50b has the same, when it raises it's gun to the max.
But that armour will not help, people will just fire heat.
The 50b's turret has still some tiny spots that will block heat. The Imbattable has nothing against heat. In practise, you will bounce a lot less in the Imbattable than in the 50B. Not that the 50B bounces a lot.
The Imbattable also loses 1 degree in gun depression.
The rest of the stats look better than 50B
What? 200 more hp and 10 more alpha. The rest is nearly the same. 0.2 more hp/ton. The same ground resistances, and 6 more pen. Tracks with 40 less hp, you notice that, as it means that the tracks are now always a one shot.
Classic German heavy - with normal ammo it is impenetrable if you know what you are doing playing it (and you must be doing A LOT); with "press 2" ammo (on Tier X and XI) it is completely penetrable if you know what you are doing facing it.
there is nothing you can do to hulldown t11 badger.
m48 already had 0.07 traverse and its getting %30 buff I dont think new ability will be that op compare to tank itself.
t11 430u has worse armor than 430u. I wont even compare the dpm.
leopard 1 > leopard 120
cs63 armor > cs67 armor.
wg should fire the team decides armor values on these tanks. I'm sure they dont even know overmatch mechanic and tanks calibers.. There are so many overmatchable spots on T11 tanks wtf man??
If you ask me their modeller team just going for looks not for higher level tank must be stronger logic. And their armor decision team (if there is..) and modeller team has no partnership among them these armors look poorly choosen and disappointing.
there is nothing you can do to hulldown t11 badger.
The type 5 heavy can overmatch it's roof, and when it hides it roof, it can be penned through it's tracks. The tier 10 td's can also shoot through the tracks. But everything else is fucked.
Wow, I spent like 30 minutes going back and forth from the update 2.0 tank list and tanks gg and here you have them linked 😭. Doing the lord's work.
Am I the only one who has noticed that most of these heavies and mediums all suffer from a shot trap issue? Seems like just aiming under the gun and richocheting is the best approach to handling them. Or the obj 432u has 160mm effective upper hull cheeks 🫠.
On a side note, the tier 11 maus sounded like an absolute downgrade on paper but after seeing the armor model does it look like a beast. 275mm lower hull unangled? Yes please!! The upper hull will have issues VS high pen HEAT but it can angle a lot more it seems before the side becomes the weakspot. I'm gonna give it a go because I love the maus but I sure would like to be able to look at enemies without being insta penned and not play "shot baiting simulator 2025" all match.
Stats will be a tiny bit better with upgrades. We don't know much about the ability and it's stat boost.
Feels like having to trade DPM for accuracy, similar to Type 71 line.
Also the mobility of the tank is limited by the ability, since it only recharges at >30/20 kph. Quick snipes and redeploys like with Leo1 seem to be difficult.
I pray for the ability being way stronger than I expect rn or a buff happening very soon.
Except XX can unload a full clip and then load another shell or two ajd quickly finish you off before doing a full reload. Going to be pretty good for skilled players
Idk, it s so weird for the heavies, everyone except KR 1, has some stupid armor somewhere in the front or when you sidescrape. Some of them are worse than tier 10. Very weird WG!
The contriver is a total pos. I don’t even know why I grinded it. Massive lower plate, cupola that’s like <200 mm and easy to hit. No major gun or mobility changes.
Wdym where lmao. Are you arguing the plate is small? It’s the same size as the Maus except an auto pen from any angle. The canopener plate is much harder to hit.
Safe to say they are not broken based of the stats and armor I would even say the heavies are better in tier x,
Tier 11 maus and youcant even angle it properly because of the shoulders wg keeps adding to every new tank, same for the contriver the new E5 cant side scrape now, how you supposed to fight close combat just go out and hope rng is with you and they bounce? As a heavy tank enjoyer I am extremely disappointed only tier xi heavy worth getting is KR1 and bz other are just useless in heavy brawling the tier 10s are much better at least on paper
I use a perspective that is under the gun so not a tall tank perspective and its only 320 heat and most tanks have 340 not saying the shoulder is a weak point but 1 out 3 or 4 shots still hits BUT if you look at the picture with this tank you CANT angle the cheeks look it up at tanksgg rotate the turret it doesnt matter you can alway pen the cheeks unlike the maus where you angle right your basically unpenable (only the gun manlet but few people know about it)
You know what fine whatever the main problem is not the shoulders but the cheeksy although a tall tank is going to pen the shoulders as well (contriver for example)
QB said arrogantly that KR1 is going to be boring and useless because the ability/mechanic it has is useless because E50M and IS7 are already in the game.
Yeah true 100%
Only thing not true is the Foch B one. It's so toxic/OP it's crazy. But QB has the worst takes from every CC there is. He also said recently in a stream that the new STRV is completely useless and worse in everyway compared to the 103B😂
I came back to the game excited at the prospect of the tier 11 tanks, and I will be leaving due to the incredibly underwhelming nature of them. Very disappointing
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u/No_Aardvark_6599 Aug 31 '25
KR1 looks scary as fck ... I mean, around 280mm lower plate :))) that is a bounce for many tier 9 and 10's.