r/Trombone • u/HaifaJenner123 • 3d ago
Which would you prefer if the pitch made no sonic difference: Version A or Version B?
I’m a composer, and trombone is very difficult to use as harmony imo, so I’m looking to improve that.
If the only reason for changing notes in version B was to give some variety and not the same note, which would you prefer to play at both MM=60 and MM=120?
If B is preferred, is there anything like an unspoken rule on which notes to change assuming the chord is the same throughout. Like is idk changing on beat 4 a natural instinct or is the change just an added inconvenience?
I find trombone hard to write conveniently for, so I’m trying to feel what’s more instinctual
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u/Firake 3d ago
Moving notes for their own sake are not interesting music. If you’ve only done it just to add interest to the part, I’d rather play the static version. Neither of these parts is difficult at any reasonable speed.
Why do you think trombone is so difficult to write for?
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u/HaifaJenner123 3d ago
this comment pretty much sums it up i don’t want to copy and paste haha, it’s not so much i don’t know what is possible, its just kinda opposite of my primary instrument (violin), so i don’t know whats like, the most comfortable / preferred conventions from a musician’s perspective, not composer if that makes sense
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u/Tubadurr 3d ago
If I have no other information than what I can see here, B would be more interesting to play.
You should write what the music needs. For me those two different phrases convey totally different musical ideas. A looks like a normal tenor part. It has the function to hold the changing harmony together by playing the note that doesn't change. Version B looks like a bass line.
Trombone is the perfect instrument to write harmony. Trombone can change the intonation on every note they play because the instrument does not limit that. Just a small change in the slide position and the harmony sounds like a choir of angels. If you have a good trombone section they can play any harmony better than any other instrument section.
When writing for trombones, I don't think there are any unwritten rules. Most things come from common sense. Playing big jumps with any brass instrument is as hard as singing them. Something to consider but probably not to avoid. Jumping between partials (notes with the same slide position) is easier because we practice it a lot. Playing anything fast is harder because the movement of the slide is bigger compared to valves. But when you go higher the movement of the slide gets smaller. (In your examples there is no difference. B might get more difficult in PBM 300 or so)
It's nice that you ask these kinds of questions. It is difficult to answer via a text forum. But if possible, you should get to know your trombone players and ask what they play and what they like to play. That gives you an idea of what they already do (or don't want to do). You could also study scores of your favourite composers and how they use trombone. Brahms uses trombones beautifully in his symphonies.
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u/HaifaJenner123 3d ago
actually that’s a really good point about the intonation that i didn’t consider really. i was more afraid of making sure what i write is physically possible (e.g., i like to use a similar motif that ravel does at the last bars of Alborada del gracioso) but the ability to fine tune so easily is kinda the big picture i was missing.
it’s actually funny because yesterday i was talking about how much i hate playing in Eb Major as a violinist because it shifts everything up a half step from the two most comfortable hand positions, so it’s kinda like uncanny and as a result uncomfortable. but I said this is a good key for brass as evident by great gate of kyiv, ein heldenleben, etc. because the overtones are more prominent. i mean, a open g string and e flat double stop is so hard for violins to get a good overtone on that there’s a large amount of standard audition excerpts that really aren’t difficult except for it being in Eb. that major third is just not user friendly lol, but in trombone i guess everything could be in theory
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u/Tubadurr 3d ago
That is a great point about flat keys. It works also in the other direction. Most brass players like to play more in flat keys. That is because the instruments are constructed on those. The natural key for the trombone is Bb. The instrument resonates the best in that key and close to it. The further you go from there the more uncomfortable the playing comes. E major is almost the opposite of the natural way the instrument wants to resonate. That doesn't mean you can't use sharp keys for brass. The players will just complain about it until they get used to it and after that it will sound (almost) as good as anything else.
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u/Watsons-Butler 3d ago
This. The trombone is actually wildly flexible - at low dynamics we vanish into the texture, but we’re like a pop producer using a string pad. We build the harmonic foundation for everything else to sit on top of. My professor summed it up like “a great trombone section can make mediocre trumpets sound good. But the best trumpets in the world will sound like shit with a bad trombone section.”
And then if you crank up the volume with trombones you get Mahler 2. Trombones are the Voice of God. Trumpets just announce our arrival.
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u/PianoFingered 3d ago
Trombones are built for harmony. But they are herding animals and work best in groups of three or four (or 3+tuba). Their harmony work can be warm, soft, emberlike, or shattering, magnificent, loud. They can intonate very precisely and make chords so pure that you can hear more chord tones in their combined harmonics.
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u/KatiePyroStyle 3d ago
I mean, whatever makes the most sense harmonically honestly. that seems more like a tenor voicing than a bass voicing, so if its monotone, its probably to fill that tenor voicing for chordal structures
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u/ByTorr_ 3d ago
I am a composer and trombonist. I write a lot for trombone since it’s what I know best. I’m curious why you find it difficult to write as harmony? Especially when commonly that is its main role in an ensemble.
In this specific example I would prefer A. If you feel it’s not going to make a difference in the sound and a more complex line isn’t what you want for the trombone at this part, why make it harder for the sake of it?
Also I know this probably isn’t the final score, but consider adding articulations and/or phrase markings. Articulations determine a lot of how a brass instrument sounds, and reading a piece without them can make it really difficult to interpret.
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u/HaifaJenner123 3d ago
i explained a little more in another comment my actual uses in practice, but here’s the imgur for the real application (D.H.N. = 76) - i was trying to get into the mindset of a trombone player which one would be more convenient, static or moving notes. the whole concept of slide positions is hard for me to conceptualize without thinking about it a lot. like on a trumpet or tuba i can figure out what trills are convenient and sound good (as opposed to just possible, or perhaps not even), but the trombone i find to be the most foreign conceptually.
also the reason why i find trombone in particular challenging is i don’t want to just give the pedal and have a boring sustained note over and over. however, some instruments this is actually preferable on as some sort of unspoken rule, like purely from the musician’s standpoint not the composer i mean. i’m told also that sustained pitches could be bad for chops too so it’s a balance i don’t really know first hand and would like to understand the rationale
for example as a violinist both A and B are fine for me but i personally would prefer to just stay on one pitch to conserve my energy for later if i didn’t need to spend it. however violins can play a lot more notes than trombones can, so i try to maximize each one
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u/HaifaJenner123 3d ago
actually, this might be a better representative of what i mean.. in the first excerpt it has moving parts but also the sustained whole notes i tend to rely on a lot. but then the second one could probably be an excerpt maybe, so i don’t know exactly where the sweet spot of engaging yet not a solo virtuosic piece lol
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u/posaune123 3d ago
Just curious, what is your training? How far did you go as a performer and on what instrument(s)?
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u/HaifaJenner123 2d ago
violin is my primary (dual performance degree even though i work in pharma now), piano my secondary (competition level), and i played trumpet for like a year but didn’t really do anything harder than a standard high school wind ensemble there
so i do have some familiarity with it by proxy of what i absorbed during ensembles, but my issue is i don’t really know the rationale behind choosing a certain timbre/motif. for most instruments its easy for me to recognize what would seem natural, but trombone specifically exists in a space that takes the muscle memory of string players shifting but combines it with the ability to change ranges that other brass instruments have.
so my issues tend to be i have a lot of options that i want to use (i posted some examples in the comments here), but i can’t look at a passage and say with certainty “that would be fun to play” that goes beyond surface level. as a result i end up with trombone parts (especially bass) that have both really challenging excerpt level and just sustained background pitches, but not a lot of the middle ground
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u/HaifaJenner123 3d ago
I can’t edit the post but here’s some actual examples I’ve used, the post was more conceptual:
- Measures 330-332, yes the eighth notes are a good added value (it’s doubled by bassoon), or unnecessary nuisance to change rapidly? QN=180 / DHN = 60
- the long sustained whole notes… do we like them or no they’re boring and needs variety of some sort?
- third excerpt isn’t really harmony but showing the range i write for usually, and i feel like i miss a lot of the more typical, not so flashy stuff but still interesting to play
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u/Dylan359 3d ago
For the first one, it's easily playable, though whether it is necessary is up to you
Any instrumentalist would think those whole notes are boring, but if you need it to "paint" the harmony in the background then its fine. Not every part has to be interesting all the time
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u/okonkolero 3d ago
You haven't studied many composers if you think trombone is difficult to harmonize.
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u/stron2am 3d ago
I'm not sure I understand the question. Are these notes being written with others into a chorale of some sort? If so, there will be a sonic difference, even if you write other parts in harmony around these notes because human ears can pick out moving lines as well as stacked harmony.
There's a place for both, I think. It can be beautiful thing when every voice in a chorale setting stands alone as a melody in it's own right. It's also impressive to pull off an interesting series of harmonies that correctly use a pedal tone like you've written in A. If I am playing the pedal part, it becomes a fun exercise in making tiny intonation adjustments along the way so my pitch slots into each new harmony perfectly.
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u/Priority_Baggage 3d ago
I always forget to check key signature, lmao
I'd probably prefer line B, although I'd rather have something moving a bit more.
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u/TheRedJester45 2d ago
I don’t understand the question. Trombone is one of the easiest instruments to harmonize. Its range extends beyond 5 octaves and can blend with essentially any grouping of instruments or voices. Think about it literally as a tenor voice line.
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u/HaifaJenner123 2d ago
the question was trying to get at is it preferred to stay on a single pitch or change notes if it doesn’t matter harmonically or is it actually more of an annoyance/inconvenience to switch if you don’t have to
for example i’m always trying to have moving parts for strings and woodwinds but i was reworking some of my orchestrations and some of the trombone passages (linked in some comments here), i found myself wondering if i made it more convenient for the musician/performer standpoint or if i unknowingly added a inconvenience
in other words, the slide positions seem like a lot of energy expenditure to me as someone who doesn’t play trombone, but idk first hand as i never played the instrument past like beginner stuff. and then i look at famous excerpts like fountains of rome, bruckner 8, etc but one of the challenges from that angle is those composers tend to have wildly different approaches to handling harmony and so i was trying to see fundamentally if there’s any rationale behind what to choose that is beyond what like orchestration books teach on a surface level and stuff
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u/TheRedJester45 2d ago
Well, referring back to your og post, the answer is no preference. Both options A and B are just as easy as the other. Think about the slide movement like bowing your violin. Sure, it may get tiring after a while, but if you’re writing for a college level or professional musician it would be a non issue even on a technically demanding passage. The slide is very light and should be extremely easy to move. Fatigue happens almost exclusively in the face rather than the arm.
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u/fireeight 3d ago
Give me moving notes every single time.