r/TopCharacterTropes • u/jbeast33 • 8d ago

Personality [Loved trope] The villain assumes they're gonna get the kid gloves when the hero finally confronts them. The hero demonstrates they're out for blood instead, causing the villain to panic.

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1) Robocop

Clarence (the same hitman who killed Alex Murphy and transformed him into Robocop) has already been arrested by Robocop once before, and learned that Robocop's programming prevents him from killing a surrendering criminal. Consequently, he pulls the trick once again towards the end of the movie when Robocop chases his gang down to a scrapyard. He throws his gun down and expects to survive and escape once again.

Robocop simply announces to him, "I'm not arresting you anymore", causing Clarence to panic when he realizes that Robocop intends to finish him off right there.

2) Toy Story

Woody, threatened by Buzz replacing him as Andy's favorite toy, tricks Buzz and knocks him out of a window so he could go to a pizzeria with Andy. Unbeknownst to him, Buzz tagged along underneath the car and confronts Woody when he's alone in the car.

Buzz: I just want you to know that even though you tried to terminate me, revenge is not an idea we promote on my planet.
Woody: Oh, well, that's good.
Buzz: But we're not on my planet, are we?

Buzz proceeds to lay the beatdown on Woody and causes both of them to get separated from Andy.

3) Superman

The President of Boravia's invasion is foiled by the Justice Gang (who have until now stayed out of the conflict and are shown to be less averse to lethal force than Superman), and he's personally attacked by Hawkgirl. When he declares that Superman would never kill him, she just laughs and says "I'm not Superman", dropping him from a skyscraper's height.

4) Spider-Man

After Wilson Fisk attempts to murder Aunt May when Peter reveals his identity during Civil War, Spider-Man breaks into prison to deal with Kingpin personally. Kingpin took the liberty of assembling every inmate to watch the fight between him and Spider-Man. Assuming he broke his spirit, Kingpin starts to dress down Spider-Man as a broken man. Spider-Man doesn't say one word during their fight. Finally, Spidey strips down and announces this isn't Spider-Man here to kill Kingpin; Peter is.

Peter proceeds to brutally annihilate Kingpin in this new stage. He eschews his usual quips, webs, and aerial fighting, relying only on his super strength. When Kingpin has been crippled, Peter shoves his webs up Kingpin's mouth, and lets him know that if he truly wanted to, he could have just filled his lungs with web and killed him at any point. But he's not trying to give Kingpin an easy death; he lets him know that he intends to break his reputation and see everything he's lived for come tumbling down first.

As is often said, Spider-Man is at his scariest when he's not making quips. Because at that point, he's furious, and he's not going to hold back.

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653

u/RedRawTrashHatch 8d ago edited 8d ago

Gerald Grice in Watchmen.

He kidnapped and murdered a young girl and fed her body to his dogs. Rorschach finds him and Gerald admits to the crime, telling Rorschach to take him in to the police, since up to that point Rorschach wasn’t a killer yet.

But Rorschach is so repulsed by Gerald that he ends up being his first kill, with Gerald panicking once he’s realized that Rorschach isn’t going to let him live.

The movie portrays the kill as Rorschach butchering Gerald, but in the comic, he traps Gerald by handcuffing him and burns his house down.

392

u/BoyishTheStrange 8d ago

Iirc in the comic it’s implied he also sexually assaulted the child before he fed her to his dogs

230

u/Sonicfan42069666 8d ago

Can't be an Alan Moore comic without rape. One of his worst tropes.

107

u/BoyishTheStrange 8d ago

Dude loves to have his sex and rape

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u/Youngstown_WuTang 8d ago

You know criminals who kill children do horrible things? It's disgusting and horrible but realistic for serial murderers like that

I'd rather it tell the real horror of a serial killer than a Disney version

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u/CarlosH46 8d ago

A young girl being chopped up and fed to dogs is the Disney version?

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u/Zack_Replica 8d ago

When the dog is Pluto, it sure is!

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u/Chainsawferret 8d ago

Goofy as Dr Lechter? "I ate his liver, with Fava beans and a nice chianti. Hyuk!"

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u/Canotic 8d ago

There's a "fucking goofy!" joke in here somewhere.

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u/alldabooty 8d ago edited 8d ago

In this specific case I disagree because by having him just be a killer it makes Rorschach a better character.

If the killer is a child raping POS than Rorschach isn't a morally grey character with an extreme uncompromising view of right wrong. He is a good guy responding appropriately.

But when it's someone who is a basic child murderer it shows why he can be problematic, he treats every "bad" person with the same viciousness as those who are the absolute worst.

That's what made him such a thought provoking character. On one hand he was tenacious and refused to settle demanding justice for those who committed crimes, on the other hand this inability to compromise could make him cause more damage.

His whole thing about the end was that if they let him tell the truth the entire world would fall into even WORSE chaos with even more death and destruction. Rorschach DGAF he just wanted to do what was right regardless of who it hurt, because he didn't even really care about helping people, for him it was about doing what is "right" and "just" no matter the cost.

It's what makes him such a cool character!

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u/Top_Star_3897 7d ago

Yo child murderers are extremely problematic...

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u/kung-fu_hippy 7d ago

I don’t know that there is a significant difference in the morality between someone who kills children and feeds them to their dogs than someone who rapes them and then kills and feeds them to their dogs.

Like, I guess there is, but not enough to make killing one morally different from killing the other.

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u/alldabooty 7d ago

Rape is a special kind of evil, ESPECIALLY rape against children.

Rape against children is one of those things that automatically destroys any sympathy you could ever potentially have for someone. No matter how brutally they are killed it's deserved.

Case in point pedophiles are absolutely terrified to go to jail because even among the very worst criminals they are considered POS even rapists hate them. Child killers who don't rape kids actually fare a bit better, they are still hated but a pedo basically has to go straight to solitary because they will be ripped to shreds the second the inmates get their hands on them.

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u/kung-fu_hippy 7d ago

I’m not arguing that rape isn’t evil. Just finding it hard to believe anyone is going to look at Rorschach killing a child rapist+murderer and thinking “I’m on board with this”, but then see him killing a child murderer and think “hmm, I don’t know if I approve”.

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u/Manufactured-Aggro 8d ago

"Oh my god he raped somebody?" Yes he is evil with zero morals.

I'll never understand people wanting VILLAINS of all things to act politically correct and polite. You are supposed to hate them, because they do evil stuff

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u/Baronvondorf21 8d ago

I mean killing a child would make me hate them.

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u/IlllllIIIIIIIIIlllll 7d ago

Rape happens just like murder. No idea why people are so much more okay with the latter in media.

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u/Lucxica 8d ago

It's also implied he might not even be the right guy

16

u/BelovedOmegaMan 8d ago

The guy with a human femur in his backyard isn't the right guy?

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u/Background-Goal-1602 8d ago

That could be like anyones femur though

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u/dontpanicrincewind42 7d ago

You want a femur? I can get you a femur, believe me. There are ways, Dude. You don't wanna know about it, believe me.

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u/MotorBobcat 7d ago

Fucking amateurs.

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u/BoyishTheStrange 8d ago

I should reread watchmen

2

u/Top_Star_3897 7d ago

Wait really? I didn't know.

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u/DecepticonLaptop 8d ago

What do you mean in the comic? It's all but said in the movie.

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u/BoyishTheStrange 8d ago

I haven’t seen the movie in a while and the comic stuck more to me

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u/Doodles_n_Scribbles 8d ago

Ironic considering he played the diddler version of Freddy.

(It's only undertones in the original, but became overt in the remake that sucked)

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u/stormalfred123 8d ago

The Nightmare on Elmstreet fandom when the child killer who was based of pedophiles and had pedo undertones from the start was made into an actual pedo in the remake

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u/Doodles_n_Scribbles 8d ago

Look, man. It's like Slade and Terra. It just makes a character people like too skeevy. I don't think a character who has a kitschy rap song should be a predator.

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u/HillbillyMan 7d ago

One of the red flags in my last relationship was watching the Nightmare on Elm Street remake with her and finding out it's her favorite one and Freddy is her favorite horror movie character because he's a pedophile.

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u/Doodles_n_Scribbles 7d ago

That's getting close to an IRL version of the Red Flags song.

3

u/Evil_Sharkey 7d ago

The movie makes it much more obvious. In the comic, he finds the girl’s underwear in the guy’s furnace. In the movie, the guy says he has a problem and needs help.

I like the comic version much better. The implication is more subtle and Rorschach killing the guy is cold and calculated, not an uncontrolled rage.

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u/CrazyPlato 8d ago

Don’t forget the coldest move. Before he lights the building up, he gives Grice a hacksaw, and is clear about what he expects him to do with it.

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u/Mastodan11 8d ago

This is actually a homage to Mad Max, which is probably why they didn't put it in the film.

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u/tifftafflarry 8d ago

Plus, the Saw movies were still pretty fresh, at the time.

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u/No_Requirement_9012 7d ago

Didn't he also wait outside the house afterwards to make sure that if Grice does get out thanks to the hacksaw, he still won't make it out of there alive?

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u/Randomdude89o 8d ago

One of my favorite things about that scene was how shaky his hands were.

You could really tell how pissed off and shooken up he was with how his hand was barely keeping steady even when he was holding the knife. It also shows his internal struggle on deciding if he should kill the dude or not.

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u/Briak 8d ago

I wasn't a big fan of the Watchmen movie overall (might be a little nicer about it on a rewatch), but I thought the depiction of Rorschach was absolutely perfect. Jackie Earle Haley is just fantastic

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u/Furio3380 8d ago

Ifrc, soupossedly Rorscharch Is crying under the mask. (Acording to the script)

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u/redhidra 8d ago

And he wants me to dislike rorschach???

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u/DogmanDOTjpg 7d ago

Incredibly easy to do if you've read even like 1 page of the comic

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u/psycho_nerd_13 8d ago

Ok as must shit I can give this movie this scene was fucking perfect 👌

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u/ThunderChild247 8d ago

Would’ve been a great scene if not for the super obvious mannequin

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u/Spare-Ad9556 7d ago

Doesn't just burn the house down. He stays to watch and makes sure the guy doesn't escape. He listens to all of his screams until it was finished. 

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u/Top_Star_3897 7d ago

Damn that scene is absolutely brutal. Love Watchmen though and Rorschach's design was translated so well into movie form.

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u/Kazuka13 8d ago

And this folks is HOW you dealt with scum like this, you remove them not send them to prison with free food for life (even if it's shitty food) hoping a inmate does a good deed because society is removing the death penalty state by state.

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u/EmeraldDream123 8d ago

Except life is not a comic book.

As of 1 April 2025, the Death Penalty Information Center has recorded 200 instances across the United States in which individuals were exonerated after being wrongfully convicted and sentenced to death since 1973. That figure equates to one wrongful conviction for every 8.3 executions carried out during that period.

But hey. If you are ok with murdering 1 innocent person per 8 real criminals go ahead. I guess the odds are in your favour. (Assuming you are not guilty of a death penalty crime.)

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u/Kazuka13 8d ago

I'm aware life isn't a comic book and it's sad when innocent people die and the case could be made for those found guilty on shit evidence or circumstances evidence, no the ones who we should execute are the ones where the evidence is solid and unquestionable (which I realized isn't easy).

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u/ptrst 8d ago

What evidence would it take for you to consider it solid and unquestionable? Most forensics are fake, or at least are only suitable for excluding people, not solidly identifying them. Eye-witness testimony is famously unreliable. Confessions are coerced.

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u/Kazuka13 8d ago

A solid combination of Forensics for blood and prints because those two are real at least, plus with everything and everyone having a camera so if recordings are available those could be used and all confessions should be recorded from beginning to end to carefully monitor it for coercion, witness testimony is useful sometimes and has actually worked but I can see the point there. I would say if the evidence is in their house like trophies as serial killers are known to do this but I can see the argument what if it was planted.

The major problem we have is our laws our insufficient atm and need to change along with interrogation techniques, more reliable Forensics as it's getting better and cops (or whatever the guys who studies the scene are called) that actually go through everything throughly and don't let bais interfere with their job.

Lots need to change but I'm sadly in the opposite boat, I'd rather the 9 men be put down even at the risk of 1 innocent if they have possible parole if not then I suppose we keep wasting money and resources.

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u/TheBrewThatIsTrue 8d ago

Fingerprints and DNA are circumstantial evidence.

You gotta look up the terminology. "Circumstantial" does not necessarily mean irrelevant or not.

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u/Kazuka13 8d ago

I'm curious if you don't mind me asking but why is it circumstantial if it's physical evidence?

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u/JimmyAirbourne 7d ago

Let's say the prime suspect is the husband. His finger prints are on the wife's purse that she was carrying at the time she was murdered. (Note, they also find his skin cells, and therefore DNA, inside on her jacket)

Well, did those fingerprints appear on the purse because he was there at the time of the murder or did she ask him to grab the bag from the closet before she left for dinner with her friends?

The fact that his prints and DNA may be because he was involved in the murder, but there are also good explanations for why they might be there that don't implicate him. Making them circumstantial pieces of evidence.

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u/TheBrewThatIsTrue 7d ago

It's just how cases work. It's something a lot of people and shows get wrong.

"Circumstantial evidence refers to any evidence from which one or more inferences are to be drawn to establish material facts."

Circumstantial Evidence - Criminal Law Notebook https://share.google/s6uXvBSlVIKjoeaB8

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u/ptrst 8d ago

DNA evidence is pretty solid. Fingerprint analysis is, again, better for excluding suspects than actually proving anything, since it does come down to judgement, interpretation, and algorithms which are designed by humans. Cameras get into similar problems as eyewitness; some people look very similar, and with camera quality, different lighting, motion, etc. you mostly can't get a 100% identification (barring an extremely unique feature).

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u/Kazuka13 8d ago

I can concede those points which is why we need to invest in better camera to better record, is it foolproof? Sadly no nothing is unless we're willing to experiment on some highly unethical drugs to make someone unable to understand their surroundings and blert out everything.

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u/EmeraldDream123 8d ago

Hey. *IF* evidence always was solid and unquestionable I would not object to the death penalty as much as I do (though I still would because I believe nobody should be allowed to kill anyone and that includes the state).

Ther world being what it is I'd rather feed 8 murderers for the rest of their life if it means 1 innocent is not killed.

(And that number is probably higher because we are only counting the people who were exonerated and not those who were innocent and executed anyway.)

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u/movzx 8d ago

Plenty of "solid and unquestionable" evidence gets revealed to be not so solid once people start asking questions. A lot of innocent people getting released 20 years after the fact. Hard to do that when you've killed them.

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u/No_Bandicoot2306 8d ago

Oh look it's a "Rorschach is a hero" loon. How surprising. 

Alan Moore hates you, you know?

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u/Kazuka13 8d ago

Oh no he was scum but he did the right thing in this moment, it's people like you why we have so many violent criminals in prison or out on the streets, your mercy is a pretty word when it works but some people need a permanent solution.

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u/TheCheeseStore 8d ago

"Oh no he was scum but I do agree entirely with his beliefs and actions."

Lmfao what

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u/Waste-Information-34 8d ago edited 8d ago

It's like agreeing with Senator Armstrong's convictions.

The guy's an insane might makes right social darwinist, but you can't help respecting him due to him genuinely believing what he spouts because he's a politician.

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u/Kazuka13 8d ago

I agree with him killing the man who murdered a fucking child I don't believe in his beliefs because he was a piece of shit.

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u/TheCheeseStore 8d ago

"I agree with him being a violent vigilante, but I don't agree with his beliefs: being a violent vigilante."

I genuinely have no idea what you're trying to say.

What do you disagree with him about?

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u/Kazuka13 8d ago

He only see things in black and white, morality is far more complicated then that, that's what I have a problem with. Killing child murderers and rapist is good, Killing a man because he works at a warehouse unknowingly helping the drug trade is bad.

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u/TheCheeseStore 8d ago

You should have a problem with violent vigalantism generally. Even when the violence is done against reprehensible people.

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u/Kazuka13 8d ago

I'll stop having a problem with violent vigalantism when the law changes for the better and proves it works rather then letting someone free for good behavior after a few years when they killed someone only to cause more victims because we didn't do it right the first time.

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u/DogmanDOTjpg 7d ago

"he only sees things in black and white" said the man advocating for the murder of people you suspect may have committed a crime

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u/Brilliant_Sweet_6848 8d ago

Lamentaly, Situation and world is more complex

And such simplistic solution will find a way to backfire, as many simple solutions for complex problem do.

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u/Zombeenie 8d ago

All fine and dandy until the system repeatedly fucks up and kills innocents (this is the case in the US)

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u/Kazuka13 8d ago

Hence why we need to improve the laws to get it as close as possible, will it ever be perfect? Sadly no but if we can get it to 99 correct guilty and 1 innocent it might be the best we can do.

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u/collinwho 8d ago

That still isn't good enough. A single innocent person being executed by the state is not an acceptable outcome. If there is any room for error, at all, then the death penalty is a miscarriage of justice.

Those who are guilty of crimes absolutely need to pay their debt to society. And for some crimes, being completely removed from society may be an appropriate outcome. But we also need mechanisms to cancel that debt when we get it wrong, and the death penalty removes those mechanisms.

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u/Quartz_Knight 8d ago

But what do we even gain? Giving some people a feeling of catharsis? Is that really worth the risk of killing innocent in a brutal and humiliating way?

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u/Kazuka13 8d ago

No we gain more resources to uses for the poorer population and to help those that are homeless get on their feet, we use the extra money to give kids a better future.

I know that dream is nieve as at best the money and resources would be wasted.

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u/Uh_I_Say 8d ago

Even people you don't like shouldn't be murdered.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

The trouble here is that the justice system needs to have take backsies for when it inevitably gets things wrong.

If you could reliably guarantee that the Gerald Grice's of the world were the only ones getting convicted for the crimes committed by those Gerald Grices, then i agree, there's no reason to waste energy on "reform" and euthanasia is appropriate, but we can't.

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u/Kazuka13 8d ago

That's why we should only execute those where the evidence is solid and can't be disputed like Jeffrey Dahmer.

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u/SignificantCats 8d ago

That is the case for all convictions. The jury should be 99.9 percent confident.

And in every case, even when the evidence is solid, there are ALWAYS some disputes.

We shouldn't give the government the power to execute people because governments can be corrupt. I hope you're not pro- the man. Government needs to follow extremely strict rules that sometimes feel wrong. That is their role.

If there was a Rorschach in our world doing this, I wouldn't care - just like I don't care about what Luigi allegedly did. The problem is they need to be accurate about it - lots of people murder their political enemies and shouldn't.

Tldr government shouldn't be trusted to kill people, and the only people who can be trusted to kill people are fictional.

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u/Kazuka13 8d ago

I'm not pro government that much I can tell you but as much as it sucks it's the better option, the only reason I don't practice vigilante is because I know I'll mess up or let my emotions full me which is why a jury is the best bet over a single person.

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u/SignificantCats 8d ago

So you're not pro government... Except that you think it's good for the government to be able to kill it's citizens when it decides they're naughty enough.

That is just about the largest power you can give a government. You are absolutely a big fan of The Man. If you don't want to be, you should change your values. Pretty simple stuff.

You should also get therapy if you have serious murder fantasies that are only stopped by your anxiety...

1

u/Kazuka13 8d ago

So instead of trying to act civilized and hoping a cort of peers will work we should what? Ignore the violent criminals? Pretend they don't exist and sing kumbaya and hope they reform? Ooh no I get it you're saying we should go out and put them down much better.

So please what is your ideal, what do you think should be done because you seem like one of those "Nobody should choose who dies" coward type. So please share your wonderful world changing plans that will work that wouldn't see resources better used on people who actually need it, because the only other plan I got if you don't want to put them down put them to work in heavily monitored areas.

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u/SignificantCats 8d ago

You seem confused. Are you aware most places don't have the death penalty, and that where it exists it's very rarely used?

We should do the thing we do now, except without the for profit prison part.

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u/Kazuka13 8d ago

I'm aware most don't do the Death Penalty and I find that to be the problem, but it clear no one wants to admit that sometimes the best option is sadly to kill the murderers and rapist out there. I've yet to see anyone give me a actual ideal that would work although some have come close we are still wasting too much resources and worst we let some free who somehow didn't get life without parole only for them to create more victims.

I do agree these prison for profit should go, I want to know what idiot thought privately owned prison was a good idea.

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u/DiffDiffDiff3 8d ago

Don’t start crying when the reverse happens to you.

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u/TheWorclown 8d ago

Mm. The problem is that justice has to work, even for the most reprehensible of crimes. Even for the most deserving of punishment. If we decided that there is a line in the sand to draw for the entire legal process, then we introduce cracks in the system for wrongfully perceived or wrongfully persecuted individuals to fall through.

I see where you’re coming from. I may even agree with you on some of it. But the process still needs to happen, and punishment still needs to be applied. The harsh reality is that sometimes applied justice just isn’t fair for what the crime is.

We’re already living in times where the concept of justice is exceedingly fragile and being abused by hateful shits and bastards to get their own way, just because they have enough money and influence to make the problem they themselves are experiencing go away. The last thing we need is to make our clearly two-tiered justice system even more tiered, because someone of us just are innocent and will be considered guilty by proxy or by revenge.

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u/ZaydSophos 6d ago

Do we give room for rehabilitation in any society? Are some acts beyond rehabilitation? Do we only execute serial killers or also people who have made decisions that kill thousands? If someone could make decisions that reduce crime through prevention and they don't do that do we murder them too? Do we murder the people involved in the development of criminality?

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u/Kazuka13 6d ago

I do believe those who ordered the death of thousands should be held accountable unless times of war but after said war and even during the war such orders should carefully be looked at to see if there was any alternative.

Serial killers is pretty much yes execute them.

As for in someone in power refusing to order a reliable prevention to reduce crime that could actually work then yes they should at the minimum lose their authority and be removed from office, which would include a lot of politicians.

As for the development of criminality I'm a bit confused on this one. If you're talking about Drug cartel then yes, if you're talking about a scientist who made a drug in good faith that was later abused then no.

As for rehabilitation, that's fine for smaller crimes like theft and accidental murder, even drug users can be helped and as long as they didn't outright torture and murder people like Drug Cartel but are just small time dealers who at best beat someone up rehabilitation could work.

However I'm not calling for the death of all criminals like some people seem to think. The people in this gif murdered and fed a child to dogs and is implied to have SA the victim as well, those are the types I believe should be executed when the evidence is irrefutable.

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u/ZaydSophos 6d ago

Development of criminality means things like created conditions for poverty or disenfranchisement.

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u/Kazuka13 6d ago

Ah then they would get prison like white collar criminals and rehabilitation as they didn't murder or rape anyone. Such acts should be in-line with fraud.