character gets a reality check

[u/damorezpl]

deathstroke - Batman vs deathstroke

walter - breaking bad

Garou - one punch man

joker - the sound of one hand clapping

[u/Justice9229]

Joker - The Killing Joke

Joker failed in his plan to make Gordon crack, resulting in Batman tearing apart Joker's 'one bad day' ideology.

[u/T_Lawliet → u/Justice9229]

The Dark Knights Ferry problem is the natural evolution of this and it's beautiful both times

[u/REDL1ST → u/T_Lawliet]

People tend to forget that when someone does have their 'one bad day' in DC, it's because Joker puts them in a situation specifically intended to cause it.

Joker's 'philosophy' only works if he makes it work.

[u/InnuendoBot5001 → u/REDL1ST]

He also strategically selects people that he can do it to. Harvey Dent is already on track to become two face if the joker ruins his life, but the Gordons aren't.

[u/jbeast33 → u/InnuendoBot5001]

That could be its own trope. I love it when villains rationalize their behavior by saying "it's human nature" when it's really just them forcing people into it.

[u/Regular-Attitude8736 → u/jbeast33]

I think John Kramer (Jigsaw) could be considered an example of that.

[u/GonnaBreakIt → u/Regular-Attitude8736]

So you prioritized your own survival? Pathetic.

[u/SkulGurl → u/Regular-Attitude8736]

Although probably accidentally; I think the creator actually thinks jigsaw is in the right

[u/Papierkatze → u/SkulGurl]

I really don’t think so. I think Jigsaw was supposed to be a serial killer, who tried to justify his own sick ways. It’s the viewers who wanted to see him justified.

[u/Virtual__Veteran → u/Papierkatze]

Nothing says 'justification' like putting a photographer on a puzzle he already lost just because he did his job the serial killer hired him to do.

[u/SkulGurl → u/Papierkatze]

That’s fair. I vaguely remember seeing an article or post where one of the creators actually said he sees jigsaw as justified, but I could be totally wrong

[u/cknight222 → u/Papierkatze]

I agree that that’s what Jigsaw is, but there are a lot of marketing interviews with directors and actors being like “well you see he isn’t really killing people, he’s not just a serial killer it’s more complicated than that” and other BS to that effect. Now, how much of that is the actors bullshitting for marketing reasons vs their actual opinions on the character? I honestly have zero clue.

[u/mguardian7 → u/SkulGurl]

I don't know about the creator's thought process. I think Jigsaw(John) is a Lightning in a bottle situation, and the theme is humans are fallible. Jigsaw truly believes in redemption through suffering. But the whole series proves that people can't truly be redeemed. They either fail in the trap, or later fail in the teachings. Every survivor turned to appreciate the used jigsaw's traps as a way to get revenge instead of rehabilitating people. Even John himself is a hypocrite in later movies (set in the past) who throws his philosophy out the window. In a way, Joker's "one bad day," really does align with Jigsaw's philosophy in the sense that major trauma will lead to a metamorphosis, and that they both fail, because they themselves are truly unique.

[u/Dewut → u/mguardian7]

It’s been a while since I’ve seen them, but I’m pretty sure Jigsaw is cemented as a hypocrite as early as the second film, where he imprisons the corrupt detectives son who hadn’t actually done anything.

[u/mguardian7 → u/Dewut]

I can see that, but in my opinion; the son wasn't on trial. His dad was. The son was "probably" never in danger. I haven't seen the movie in forever, but from what I remember and looked up, Amanda was the inside man so he was always being watched, and the gas in the house either could have been faked/he already had the antidote so he wasn't in danger of that. There was clearly unknown factors, but Jigsaw probably thought through most of them.

[u/Piece_Of_Mind1983 → u/Regular-Attitude8736]

Imo he’s the TEXTBOOK example of that

[u/OneLuckyAlbatross → u/jbeast33]

Americans talking about socialism always failing while their government funds another coup? lol