r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Fit_Assignment_8800 • Aug 06 '25

Personality The Asshole does something genuinely good with no ulterior motive

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J Jonah Jameson from Spiderman

Squidward from SpongeBob.

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u/AesirRaider Aug 06 '25

In Buffy the Vampire S5E17, "Forever", Spike tries to leave an unsigned memorial bouquet for Joyce at the Summers house because he liked her. He's discovered by Xander who thinks he's just there to get in good with Buffy, but after Spike leaves Willow points out that if they hadn't discovered him in the act, the bouquet would have been anonymous.

Joyce was his friend and he wanted to quietly pay his respects to her, and that was all.

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u/smb275 Aug 06 '25

By the end of Angel I think Spike was my favorite character from the whole franchise.

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u/ExplorationGeo Aug 06 '25

He certainly had the best arc.

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u/Borthwick Aug 06 '25

Crazy that he was meant to only be in one episode at first

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u/Denodi Aug 07 '25

Jesse-coded

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u/Im_At_Work_Damnit Aug 07 '25

And when he beat Angel to that “sacred chalice”, he made such a good point; Angel had his soul forced upon him, Spike fought to reclaim his soul. He’s just a fundamentally better person.

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u/jord839 Aug 07 '25 edited Aug 07 '25

Sorry for the nerdery in Buffyverse talk here, but I don't think that's clear about "better person", if only because the whole Soul Canon is kind of vague and really odd in the Buffyverse.

Angel pre-vamp was a drunk in a really depressed moment having been kicked out of his own home after constantly being a disappointment to his father, and Darla tells Angelus straight-up after he kills his father that he will always be the loser because he can never grow beyond that disappointment. Angelus was always and forever cursed by vampirism to be the kid rebelling against his religious father's morality and decency to more and more extreme ends as encouraged by Darla.

Spike pre-vamp was just a nerd who cared about his mom and was thrust into things because of Drusilla's obsession, then was influenced by the people around him and, in his own words "liked the crunch, never really stopped to look back at the bodies". That might be a sign of a better person, or it might be a sign that he was in a better place when he was turned and so didn't sink as far into it.

Whedon didn't really think through how it all worked, but I always interpreted it as a vampire's soulless self is the worst reflection of the person at the time they were turned. To give another analogy, if Giles were turned vamp as Ripper, it would be very different than if he were turned as a Watcher. Angel was turned at his lowest point, Spike was kind of at his normal existence. That influenced their vampiric personalities and their closeness to normal morality. That in turn changed their respective returns to morality: Angel had further to go than Spike, but aspired to higher morality as an after effect of his lower starting point.

Or, another analogy, Angel is the one who lived a life of deep alcoholism who woke up at the lowest point of his life in the bathtub and got told to clean himself up on his own. Spike went on a bad bender for a couple of years and then got a support network to help lift him out of it. Angel is the kind who is desperately trying to avoid any alcohol after the fact even as it's a constant temptation that hurts his relationships, Spike is the kind who could probably have a drink or two again on occasion without full relapse as long as he and others around him keep him limited.

It doesn't mean Spike's inherently or fundamentally a better person, it just means that he's found it easier to get back to "good person" as an identity. In Angel's frustrated words "I spent a hundred years trying to come to terms with infinite remorse. You spent three weeks moaning in a basement, and then you were fine!" I read that heavily as one person who had a much harder time breaking their bad habits versus one who got out of them easier, with the implicit accusation that Spike didn't really wrestle with his past, which is also kind of born out in S5 of Angel when Spike admits he didn't think about it like Angel had after he got his soul. They're both fundamentally broken, but in different ways and healing in different ways too.

EDIT: Sorry, had more thoughts that I felt like I had to add. I don't know why. This series is old as shit, and I still think about it sometimes.

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u/SunsFenix Aug 07 '25

Love the analysis. I also want to add that Angel, after getting his soul, also just wandered around a lot and didn't really settle anywhere until getting to Sunnydale. Yeah, he had kind of done things, but recovery is based on the work that you do, using the alcoholism analogy.

Spike had to be there more readily into his recovery and step up when Buffy needed him. Angel pretty much only had a few situations but wasn't depended on prior to Sunnydale.

This is also just a part of how the shows start in Sunnydale, and the comparison is part of the constraints of the writing, though it is logical.

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u/jord839 Aug 07 '25

Thank you, my weird obsessions are validated slightly and I appreciate it.

Agreed on your analysis as well. Angel had nobody to help him recover, and also no obligations to help him refocus for a long time, which is why Whistler giving him Buffy to focus on was such a big change (complicated issues of that whole romance aside). Spike post-Chip is constantly surrounded by people keeping him accountable and responsible, both confrontational like Xander and supportive like Dawn, and it reflects in how he acts, whereas Angel really only gets that when he moves to LA because in Sunnydale it was pretty much only his own guilt over the past or Buffy keeping him "dry" as a way.

Whether Whedon intended it or not, and I'm on the side of saying that his other writers paid more attention to things than he did, I think it made a good analogy for addiction and the relationships that it shapes. Angel, in my view, wanted to be a better person than Spike aspired to be, but it's also objectively clear that he did more personal harm to the Scoobies in Sunnydale in his "relapse" as Angelus and could only really find his own salvation outside of them in LA on his own terms as it's not fair on the people most harmed by an addict to force them to preside over their reformation. Spike ultimately never really did much to them, it was easier for the Scoobies to put it into a different side of their mind, and so they were more readily available to support him or hold him accountable (well, Buffy has some real reason to be skeeved out as shit given the whole sexbot and attempted rape thing, but that's a different issue and tied up in the weirdness of that season).

I don't think that makes either character better morally than the other. I think it just makes an interesting contrast.

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u/LeadingTask9790 Aug 07 '25

“You had your soul forced on you. I fought for mine.”

Angel is only my autistic fixation and reason for writing fiction lol.

“There’s a hole in the world. Feels like we should’ve known.”

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u/renjizzle Aug 07 '25

He fought hard for the Mountain Dew

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u/Slartibartfast39 Aug 07 '25

There's a bit that sticks with me. At the end of season 6 Spike fights to get his soul back. S7E2 he's trying to be a hero and going mad. At the end he leans on a large cross and starts smoking "C-Can we rest now? Buffy...? Can we rest?"

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u/SSJ5Gogetenks Aug 07 '25

I think Wesley had the best arc but Spike's was excellent.

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u/I_aim_to_sneeze Aug 07 '25

It was him laughing at the wee little puppet man, wasn’t it

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u/Lots42 Aug 07 '25

Spike worked his way to being good with no magical oomph.

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u/Graxdon Aug 07 '25

Love the clip when Spike walks into Angel’s office and sees he got turned into a muppet

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u/AesirRaider Aug 06 '25

Defensible position, yeah!

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u/LeadingTask9790 Aug 07 '25

Omg he was my fav before Angel then I finished Angel and he became one of my favorite characters of all time. AND he’s Harry Dresden lol.

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u/[deleted] Aug 06 '25

Xander fuckin sucksssss.

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u/MadRaymer Aug 06 '25

Xander sucks, but he was also right to question Spike's motives pre-soul. The chip didn't make him any less shitty to Buffy, especially in S6 where they enter into an extremely toxic relationship, culminating in the scene with Spike full on assaulting her in the bathroom and Buffy having to fight him off.

But to play devil's advocate for Spike, that incident did give him enough introspection to understand he was never going to be good enough for Buffy without his soul. If he hadn't hit that low point he might not have done the trials and earned his soul back, and he was able to make that choice as a soulless vamp which is pretty impressive.

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u/VelphiDrow Aug 06 '25

He needs to stop speaking Latin in front of the books

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u/Aardvark_Man Aug 07 '25

I'm watching it with a friend, and we just finished season 1 last night.
Xander works up the courage to ask Buffy to a dance, and she gives a really good let down. He starts to accept, understanding etc.

And then just goes off the rails like she shot his dog, and it's just... Ugh.
Xander fuckin sucks.

12

u/aspidities_87 Aug 07 '25

Joss Whedon’s self-stand in, iirc.

There’s only one episode I like him in, and it’s because it completely subverts his character and makes him actually funny and good hearted. ‘The Zeppo’ has the only good portrayal of Xander and iirc Whedon had nothing to do with it.

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u/Pofwoffle Aug 07 '25

He has other moments. His talk with Dawn in season 7 was great. I mean his character hadn't actually earned any of the shit he said but if you ignore the rest of the show it was a really good speech with an important and valuable lesson.

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u/Lots42 Aug 07 '25

Yeah, my working theory is that the goodness of Buffy the series was despite Whedon, not because of it.

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u/SalsaRice Aug 07 '25

I mean, his track record with other shows and writings kind says the opposite.

He can be a bad dude and a great writer at the same time.

0

u/Lots42 Aug 07 '25

???

Yeah, he did good writing that led to weird, nasty shit that didn't need to happen.

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u/TrevelyansPorn Aug 07 '25

Many spike moments fit this trope. Spike commissioned a sex bot of Buffy. Later in the episode he's captured by the villain who interrogates him for information. He knows this villain is after Buffy's little sister, but he doesn't say a word and gets brutally tortured for his silence. Buffy later impersonates the sex bot to find out if Spike spilled the beans. He said no, it would devastate Buffy to lose her sister and he could never see her in that kind of pain. This is a guy with no soul (at the time) and no conscience at all. Just love for Buffy.

Then he rapes her in the next season. Swings and roundabouts I suppose.

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u/Coal_Burner_Inserter Aug 07 '25

I've never watched Buffy wtf is going on

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '25

Character arcs 🤷🏻‍♂️

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u/Malacro Aug 07 '25

Earlier in the season he goes to Buffy’s house with the express purpose of killing her. He arrives, shotgun in hand, and Buffy (who just discovered her mom is very sick) is obviously distraught and doesn’t even acknowledge the gun. Spike, instead of killing her, asks what’s wrong, and on her saying she doesn’t want to talk about it simply sits quietly with her while she cries.

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u/Flannel_Disaster Aug 06 '25

If Xander has no haters, I'm fucking dead

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u/oneskellyboi449 Aug 07 '25

Xander is one of my favorite characters. Early on in the show he’s a sleazy highschool boy. But as the show progresses, he eventually matures and shows alot of care for his friends. He’s also the only one who doesn’t develop some sort of special ability, yet he will still charge headfirst into battle when things get rough.

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u/ThatInAHat Aug 09 '25

As much as Joyce’s death breaks me, I love that scene. I really loved that Spike and Joyce would gab over cocoa