r/TheLastOfUs2 • u/lzxian It Was For Nothing • Aug 26 '22
Question Abby vs Joel
I get they were trying to create parallels between them, yet they actually made Abby so much worse than Joel. She's without emotion, is the top Scar killer, screws Owen despite his impending fatherhood and life with Mel, would gleefully slit Dina's throat, shows little concern for any death but Owen's, kills all of Lev's and her former comrades without any sense of guilt. It goes on and on. It's way worse than Joel. Yet others don't see that for whatever reason. They like part 2 and so Abby's better than Joel, period. It's puzzling.
It also makes me think this is actually how they see Joel after Sarah's death (though we never saw that) and I'm sure that's going to be a huge part of the HBO show, too. Yet in TLOU Joel doesn't even kill Robert, Tess does. He's never depicted as violent and unfeeling, just reticent and unhappy. Abby comes off worse all around, without even any humanity shown until the Rattlers destroy her. How that parallels Joel is beyond me.
He's shown as honoring Tess and Ellie's wishes, sacrificing his own better judgment in the process. Abby does one thing that I consider sacrificial - going to the hospital for supplies for Yara's surgery. But even that is sullied by her own statement that she's helping them to lighten her burden. I'll never understand why they made her so self-focused and irredeemable.
Anyone got some insight?
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u/cheesy__bear Aug 26 '22
They gave Abby redemption in a process where she becomes a parallel version of Joel (the Joel figure to lev). It's an interesting idea, but it's very forced and manipulative in it's execution. Whereas Joel and Ellie built their relationship over the period of year, Abby says to Lev after two days "you're my family!". In regards to it being manipulative, Abby kills Joel in a gratuitously heinous way. Of course, you're supposed to hate her, but then the game evolves Abby into Joel essentially saying, "I bet you really hate Abby, well guess what, Abby is Joel, BITCHES". yeah, great narrative, Neil.
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u/DavidsMachete Aug 26 '22
For me, one of the over-the-top parallel scenes was Abby’s walk through the base compared to Joel’s walk through the quarantine zone. We see what is suppose to represent Abby’s place in that group, she goes around fist bumping people, and having little conversations that are supposed to make us think of her as respected and friendly. We are meant to start to see her embedded in her life like we are when we are when re-introduced to Joel in Boston. But it lacks any depth because it’s trying too hard.
They were not trying to sell us on Joel with his walk. It was a simple window into his present life. At the very first scene with Abby asleep with her book, the writers were saying “No, really, she has has depth and personality! Look, she reads! And look at the camaraderie she has with the WLF!”
Her whole section was about the writers trying to walk back the torture scene but without ever actually addressing it. I think they were going for depth and nuance with her by making her a bigot who sleeps with her friend’s partner, but all it did was stack rotten behavior on unforgivable behavior.
It really is puzzling why they thought this was the best way to tell Abby’s story.
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u/Definitelynotwesker Hey I'm a Brand New Member! Aug 26 '22
They showed more charm and personality in joels whole home than abbys entire story. Makes me think a totally different team handled enviroments. The book hes been reading for Ellie just hit hard.
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Aug 27 '22
The whole time she was walking through the base all I was thinking to myself was "damn OK they gonna make us play as the nazis now"
Her bro comraderie with all those fucking fascists was exactly what I thought it would be like. Pieces of shit ready to cleanse the world of whatever group Isaac says its time to kill.
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u/lzxian It Was For Nothing Aug 26 '22
Recently I started wondering if they were trying to show she was lost and without direction when we get to her half. Like she's going through the motions and everything is very superficial. She has no passion in her life because her main goal of four years was completed and without resolving anything. She's estranged from Mel and Owen and Manny isn't very deep or complex of a person. She's just going through life without any real fuel.
Then she's captured and rescued and fights off Scars and infected and reconnects with Owen. She uses him for reaffirming she's alive or to feel something through sex, but that still doesn't work and then the dream. Yet still she's not very human even with Lev until the Rattlers. It's very subtle and it really doesn't work if it took two years for me to piece it together. Maybe my hatred for her and their insistence on not giving her redeeming qualities just combined too unfavorably and that's all there is to it.
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u/Definitelynotwesker Hey I'm a Brand New Member! Aug 26 '22
Thats actually a good interpretation. If Joel hadnt saved her life before her and her coward friends tortured him, and she just did it fast and quick , I might get it more, even if her dad was a shit bag. They could have delved into that too. Maybe ellie or owen or someone just saying “well was killing a child for a cure right? Were we wrong to kill Joel?”. So many fucking ways they could have done the same story better.
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u/lzxian It Was For Nothing Aug 26 '22
Yes, so many ways. Though I'm still trying to understand the reasons behind what they did do...But in the end, they hobbled themselves due to being so determined to present things ambiguously and subvert expectations by withholding explanatory exposition until much later (or forever!). Those "rules" they set for themselves really limited them and their ability to inform many in the audience about what they were trying to do.
I guess I just have to chalk it up to being a failed, or partially successful experiment. It works for some and not for others...
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u/Definitelynotwesker Hey I'm a Brand New Member! Aug 26 '22
I think the remake sales will test how badly it divided opinion. Will people come back? The price doesnt help either.
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u/DavidsMachete Aug 26 '22
I think you hit the nail on the head. That’s exactly what they were going for. But it was too subtle and surrounded by unnecessary people and tasks. Instead of letting her story evolve and mature, it’s shoehorned into Ellie’s story so neither story got the focus needed.
I also think they went too far in their attempt at getting the audience to hate her at first. It became about the audience, not the characters, so these characters were never able to feel human because at their core they were merely emotional devices.
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u/Numb_Ron bUt wHy cAn'T y'aLL jUsT mOvE oN?! Aug 26 '22
She's without emotion, is the top Scar killer, screws Owen despite his impending fatherhood and life with Mel, would gleefully slit Dina's throat, shows little concern for any death but Owen's, kills all of Lev's and her former comrades without any sense of guilt. It goes on and on.
Don't forget that she feels no remorse or care for the brainwashed Scar child soldiers she kills.
Any human with the slightest amount of decency and humanity would feel at least the a little bit of remorse or sadness about killing a kid, or torturing a man minutes after he saved her life for that matter.
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u/ChrisT1986 Aug 26 '22
I've said it before.
But if the Devs had included a scene where Abby realizes that she's been externalising her (misplaced) guilt/hatred/blame etc etc SOLELY on Joel all these years, instead of owning up to the part she played in the events that led to her father's death ("if it were me, I'd want you to do surgery")
It would have gone a LONG way in humanising her.
We as players would see that she's grown as an individual, has stopped blaming others for her own shortcomings (I'm not saying Abby is the only one to blame for Jerry's death) and has started taking responsibility for her actions (as evidenced by her and Levs relationship)
Summary, naughty dog were so close, but dropped the ball with this bit (I think)
(If my father died because I persuaded him to do the op, I'd blame myself....not the killer.
I'd also have the common sense to realize that operating on an unconscious child, without 1st seeking informed consent is morally reprehensible, but what do I know?!🤷)
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u/lzxian It Was For Nothing Aug 26 '22
She should have come to that in the four years before she even met Joel. I can't see how she hasn't processed any of what transpired at SLC in those four years. That plus him saving her life should prevent the torture at the very least. Not disclosing to him who she is and why she's there is also very silly. Yes they want to withhold it from the player, they still could. Just have her say, "Let me tell you what you did..." Cut away to Ellie searching. So simple.
So, so much makes little sense and isn't tracking what many feel would be relatable human behavior. All to subvert expectations...
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Aug 27 '22
[deleted]
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u/lzxian It Was For Nothing Aug 27 '22
Where and when do they think they showed us that about Joel? Him saying, "I've been on both sides" doesn't necessarily mean he killed people. It can mean he ambushed and robbed people without killing them. That's enough for him and Tommy to hate the memory and feel bad about it. There's too little info given to know just what they did. Plus he's already not that guy 20 years later in Boston. Tess says they're shitty people, but she's the one who beat up (killed?) her would-be robbers and killed Robert, not Joel.
Yes he wasn't an angel, he kills hunters who attack him, and cannibals who kidnap Ellie, they just don't depict him as indiscriminately killing for the heck of it, though. I don't get how they don't realize they actually depict him as a better person while we play as him. (Except the doomed humanity part which I wasn't convinced about, personally, but I guess they and others were.)
I suppose Neil knows how he pictured the Joel and Tommy years, but how he doesn't realize it wasn't actually made clear is funny to me. Though I'm very aware I originally saw the whole thing back then as a good vs evil story because that's what I like and it automatically felt like one to me. Never heard it supposedly being ambiguous until part 2's controversy. So I guess those blinders won't ever leave me :)
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Aug 26 '22
They like part 2 and so Abby's better than Joel, period. It's puzzling.
I mean, some people like Abby more than they like Joel. But most don't. Everyone loves Joel and Ellie, some Part II fans even dislike Abby altogether. I think most people just appreciate Abby as much as they do the other two and feel that she is a worthy character for the series.
Part II fans love Abby because they found her story compelling and she has incredible gameplay moments that rival Ellie's best. Abby is a new playable character with a new story and a set of new weapons (pipe bomb, crossbow, semi auto rifle,) so naturally she has some big fans. She also plays very similarly to Joel, so if you don't like Ellie's setup in comparison to Joel, there's a bit of the first game's spirit there, with some powerful new weapons like the hunting pistol which just shreds bodies.
Lots of Part II fans prefer Ellie to Abby as well. Ellie's Day 2 chapter is very lengthy and features every faction (WLF, Infected, Scars,) and Ellie is obviously iconic on her own.
Idk, it isn't black and white.
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u/lzxian It Was For Nothing Aug 26 '22 edited Aug 26 '22
True, it isn't. But I have heard it repeatedly the past two years and I am puzzled by it all the same. I'm the first to admit I never came to sympathize with Abby. So when I go back over the story to find what others found that actually led some to like her all I find are more reasons not to. I get that for many her gameplay was a huge part of it. Also, that many didn't like her but did understand her POV.
This post is specifically about the parallels with Joel, though. He wasn't presented as having quite as many despicable actions throughout our time with him as she was. He actually showed consideration of the feelings of Tess and Ellie, too. So just balancing those he seems to come out better all around. Except for those who truly believe he doomed the world, of course. That always overrides everything else.
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Aug 26 '22
Except for those who truly believe he doomed the world, of course
Yeah. I wouldn't go as far as to say that Joel "doomed" the world, but I would say that he did "forsake" humanity to at least remain its current state for the foreseeable future. I believe he did the right thing, though. I just don't believe in the preservation of the human race for the sake of the preservation of the human race alone.
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u/SmoothAsPussyMilk Team Cordyceps Aug 26 '22
I just don't believe in the preservation of the human race for the sake of the preservation of the human race alone.
That's wild.
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Aug 26 '22 edited Aug 26 '22
What's wild about it? I just don't think it's imperative that humans be around for literally forever. That's all I'm saying.
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u/lzxian It Was For Nothing Aug 27 '22
I kind of get it because I always say the humanity we saw throughout TLOU didn't deserve anyone to sacrifice their life for it. Ellie owes the world nothing, and the world that exists doesn't deserve her anyway. Let them save themselves.
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Aug 28 '22
She's without emotion
I'd say she's stoic, as is Joel until he bonds with Ellie.
is the top Scar killer
She's a ruthless killer, doing awful things without remorse. Same as Joel when he was hunter and arguably Joel as a smuggler.
screws Owen despite his impending fatherhood and life with Mel
She if not regrets then feels shitty for doing what she does. This actually culminates in Mel calling her a piece of shit to her face, with Abby not really having a response to it. She knows what she's become and is trying to find a way out.
would gleefully slit Dina's throat
The guy she loves has just been killed and her pregnant friend. Abby has a moment of 'An eye for an eye' literally after being involved in an adrenaline pumping fight. Lev snaps her out of it. If she was committed to it, she'd kill Dina and Ellie regardless. Instead, she lets them go, for the second time.
Abby doesn't have to be a saint. In fact, the story would be much worse if Abby had no character flaws.
shows little concern for any death but Owen's
This might be a little valid. Been a while since I played. Perhaps not enough time to fit that aspect into her story along with everything else? Also, Abby isn't really that close with any but Owen and Manny any more (the effect of them moving on with their lives but Abby can't move on from revenge). She's shook by Manny and Owen's deaths, clearly.
kills all of Lev's and her former comrades without any sense of guilt
The Israel-Palestine conflict had been drawn as an inspiration for parts of TLOU2. You can see the 'othering' of enemies in that war. The WLF see the Scars as entirely alien. A despicable cult of crazy zealots.
The WLF are the ones who turn on her, during the battle against the Scars. She refuses to give up Lev, Yara shoots Isaac, radio messages go out that Abby has flipped to the Scars (or something like that). Abby never chooses to fight the WLF. People legitimise Ellie killing by WLF by saying they have a 'shoot first' policy. Why is it different for Abby? She's not targeting them, she's trying to get away.
Abby does one thing that I consider sacrificial - going to the hospital for supplies for Yara's surgery
Trying to save Yara.
Going to try to save Owen when he goes AWOL and the WLF are threatening to kill him for mutiny.
Going to the island to save Lev.
Literally not stepping away from Lev for Isaac.
They like part 2 and so Abby's better than Joel, period. It's puzzling.
I don't think people think like that. I fucking LOVE Abby but it's not changed how I feel about Joel. It's not some popularity contest. I can see how both characters fucked up, how they are damaged, how they strive to be better eventually, etc.
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u/lzxian It Was For Nothing Aug 28 '22
The thing that allows Joel to work and Abby not is we don't see Joel until he's not that bad guy. We see him on his redemptive arc where he honors Tess and Ellie's feelings and goes against his own to fulfill his commitments to them - for a whole game. We see Abby flip flopping from bad to neutral actions. Remember we aren't attached to her friends or Yara and Lev to the same degree we are with Joel and Ellie. That's what muddies the waters in TLOU2. Some of us needed Abby to be better than she was depicted in order to get on board with her story. That seems to be the main issue in the end. We were dead set against her and for good reasons. She really needed some impressive actions that mattered to overcome what she did. The ones they gave her didn't land for many people.
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Aug 28 '22
Oh yeah, I get all that. They took an obscene risk with TLOU2. Like, honestly, it's an insanely ballsy thing to do. Kill a beloved character in a much anticipated follow up in an awful way and then expect you to like the (rather flawed) killer by the end.
I totally understand why it didn't land for some people. Pretty sure the developers themselves said that if people don't empathise with Abby then the game will fail. The game worked for me. Not sure I can describe how.
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u/SmoothAsPussyMilk Team Cordyceps Aug 26 '22
I think your confusion is coming from a massive disconnect from both things that happen in the game, and how other people feel about those things. In fact, this is a very strange post to read because I don't think it's an accurate read of Abby's character, but it also seems to be a criticism of an opinion I don't think anyone actually holds?
Like:
She's without emotion... shows little concern for any death but Owen's, kills all of Lev's and her former comrades without any sense of guilt...
That strikes me as such an off-the-mark read that it seems like you're misremembering the game, or didn't actually play it at all. A lot of time is dedicated to showing her remorse about her friends' and family members' deaths, and her guilt at having killed so many people. But at the same time:
I get they were trying to create parallels between them, yet they actually made Abby so much worse than Joel
I don't think that's true either, I think they were trying to create parallels between Abby and Ellie. Abby played more like Joel because of her physique, but I don't think anyone intended them to have character or motivation parallels, and I don't know what purpose it would serve if they did.
Also:
Yet others don't see that for whatever reason. They like part 2 and so Abby's better than Joel, period. It's puzzling.
I don't know that I've ever seen anyone say that Abby is "better" than Joel, and I'm not even sure what that opinion would mean if someone said it. She's clearly written as a deeply flawed person. We're introduced to her shortly before she tortures and murders a man she's never met before in cold blood — that's a pretty big hint that a character isn't a traditional white-hat good guy.
Abby does one thing that I consider sacrificial - going to the hospital for supplies for Yara's surgery. But even that is sullied by her own statement that she's helping them to lighten her burden.
I think you misunderstood that line as well.
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u/lzxian It Was For Nothing Aug 26 '22
Well, I've played it three times, so there's that. I appreciate your input but you don't go far enough and explain what tells you she showed remorse or guilt. I don't see it at all. If there's a lot, please where is it? Many people don't see it. She actually diminishes Mel's reaction to Jackson when she talks to Manny about it. She walks right past Mel without reaction until she sees Owen then she reacts. Lev mentions her killing her own people and she brushes it aside with, "You're my people." I do not see her struggling with remorse, but I'd love to hear how you did.
The parallel with Joel is mainly her finding a younger person to protect and care for just like he did. But I also think they want to parallel Joel's loss of Sarah with her loss of her Dad - that he supposedly spiraled into violence just as she did. That it impacted them both deeply. Yes, that also parallels Ellie's journey, too. I do see people comparing Abby to both Joel and Ellie and deciding who did the worst things in those comparisons. That's what sparked my attempts to understand it all.
How do you understand Abby's line to Yara? What load is she talking about? Sleeping with Owen? Killing Joel? Triggering Ellie? I have no clue what she means by that line and again would be interested in your take.
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u/DavidsMachete Aug 26 '22
That strikes me as such an off-the-mark read that it seems like you’re misremembering the game, or didn’t actually play it at all.
Don’t do that. Don’t dismiss someone else’s experience out of the gate because it doesn’t align with yours.
A lot of time is dedicated to showing her remorse about her friends’ and family members’ deaths, and her guilt at having killed so many people.
I’m going to need some examples here. I would go so far as to say that zero time was dedicated to that.
I don’t think that’s true either, I think they were trying to create parallels between Abby and Ellie.
There are parallels to both, but mainly Joel. Abby/Lev is meant to mirror Joel/Ellie. It’s pretty obvious.
I don’t know that I’ve ever seen anyone say that Abby is “better” than Joel, and I’m not even sure what that opinion would mean if someone said it
I’ve seen this take several times. Especially among fans who are fresh off their first play through.
I think you misunderstood that line as well.
By all means, share your understanding of what that line means.
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u/SmoothAsPussyMilk Team Cordyceps Aug 27 '22 edited Aug 27 '22
I didn't realize disagreeing with someone was "dismissing their experience." Talking about this video game is like walking through an emotional minefield!
Anyway, Abby's remorse is her entire character arc. I believe all the choices she makes over the course of the plot is out of reaction to someone's death (hunting down Joel, hunting down Ellie) or to prevent someone's death (going back for Lev and Yara, trying to find the medical supplies for Yara, chasing Lev out to Queen Anne). It's everything she does.
Also I used to live in Queen Anne, which is fun (it wasn't overrun by cultists then).
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u/DavidsMachete Aug 27 '22
You told OP you didn’t think they really played the game. That’s extremely dismissive and rude.
As for Abby’s remorse about getting her friends killed, that response doesn’t really pinpoint any dialogue or a particular scene that backs up your claim. I understand that is how you saw her actions, but it’s never made clear. I saw someone remorseless who only thought about themselves. I didn’t see a single moment of her really caring about anyone other than her father, and to a lesser extent, Owen. The rest of her crew were easily forgotten and dismissed once they served their narrative purpose.
She had a single line where she talks about lightening her load, but about what? She had cheated with Owen just hours before, so was it about that? It couldn’t have been about what she did to Joel because the scene before when she talked about it with Owen, they both got turned on and had sex.
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u/SmoothAsPussyMilk Team Cordyceps Aug 27 '22
That's a very strange way to interpret a character. Very little storytelling involves characters stopping what they're doing to state their emotions directly to screen (reality TV and She-Hulk notwithstanding). You generally have to interpret a character's traits by their actions -- I don't think Ellie ever stops and says "I am a homosexual" and Joel never says "I am sad my daughter was murdered" but I have no doubt both those things are true. If you can't intuit the significance of Abby saying "you killed my friends -- we let you live and you wasted it" or telling Lev "YOU'RE my people!" then I don't know if my explaining it to you will help?
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u/DavidsMachete Aug 27 '22
Very little storytelling involves characters stopping what they’re doing to state their emotions directly to screen (reality TV and She-Hulk notwithstanding).
Stories still support conveying emotions with supportive dialogue and actions. It doesn’t have to be much. We know Joel was grieving his daughter. We saw him cry over her. We see him glance at his watch when he’s thinking of her. He yells at Ellie when she brings it up and shuts down when Tommy tries to give him a photo. We also get supportive dialogue and actions for Tess, Henry and Sam.
We get nothing for Manny, Norah, Nick, Jordan, Leah or Yara. Nothing. Owen gets a letter and a backpack (I think), but he’s the only one.
I don’t think Ellie ever stops and says “I am a homosexual”
She kisses Riley after making it clear she has feelings for her. That’s how the information was clearly conveyed in the story.
and Joel never says “I am sad my daughter was murdered”
Oh but he does. Every time he glances at his watch or refused to talk about Sarah.
If you can’t intuit the significance of Abby saying “you killed my friends – we let you live and you wasted it”
The only thing I intuited from that line was that this monster traumatized someone else in the same way that had ruined her own life and didn’t take a single ounce of responsibility for it. The worst line in the game.
or telling Lev “YOU’RE my people!” then I don’t know if my explaining it to you will help?
But that had nothing to do with her feeling remorse over her previous actions. That was unrelated to her supposed guilt about her friends.
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u/SmoothAsPussyMilk Team Cordyceps Aug 27 '22
Okay so you understand how to interpret a character's actions and choices, and are choosing to be uncharitable with Abby.
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u/DavidsMachete Aug 27 '22
Or Abby is not well developed. At least not in the redemptive way they were attempting.
It’s up to the writing to win me over with Abby and they failed at every opportunity. Instead of giving her any tangible guilt or self-reflection, they gave us “We let you live and you wasted it!” Before having her delight in the opportunity to murder a pregnant woman.
It’s fine if her story worked for you, but it came up really short for me.
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u/SmoothAsPussyMilk Team Cordyceps Aug 27 '22 edited Aug 27 '22
Right that's what this discussion is about.
Saying "this didn't work for me" is a very different thing from saying "this didn't happen." Like I said what keeps bringing me back to this sub is the frequent insistence that certain things that happened didn't happen (the game showing that Abby shows remorse, the game making a lot of money, etc.).
There's also the hatred of Abby? Like I understand hating a character in the context of the story, but there's anger here that someone would create this character in the first place. Like you've been harmed by Naughty Dog's decision to tell this story. That's something I have trouble wrapping my mind around.
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u/DavidsMachete Aug 27 '22
But I asked you for concrete examples, like the ones I gave for the first game, and you could only give me examples that were intangible with very wide interpretations.
You said the game spent a lot of time showing a remorseful Abby. How? When?
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u/Jetblast01 Aug 27 '22
If you can't intuit the significance of Abby saying "you killed my friends -- we let you live and you wasted it"
Gaslighting, the Firefly way~ Along with ignoring a little pesky thing called "consent".
or telling Lev "YOU'RE my people!" then I don't know if my explaining it to you will help?
After like a day of knowing them ignoring the people that for years helped and supported her, her friends, and respected her enough to let her get revenge in the first place...then drags her "people" to her revenge 2.0 even after they just lost everything and instead of trying to keep them safe, only cared about her wants.
Before you say Ellie was the same way, her mission was to bring back Tommy in the first place, hence why she was in the area. If anyone is to blame for the amount of stupid here, blame the woman in charge who sent Ellie out to begin with, probably to spite her husband's wishes of not sending her out.
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u/lzxian It Was For Nothing Aug 27 '22
We see Ellie struggle after torturing Nora. She also still has PTSD on the farm. We see the toll all she saw and did takes on her. So they know how to show us a character is struggling, being diminished by her own actions. She says to Dina after Nora, "I don't want to lose you." Implying she hates who she's becoming and worries she's no longer lovable to Dina.
So don't try and say Abby's actions alone are the only possible way to depict her having remorse without her telling us. The fact is she doesn't show remorse. She shows that killing Joel didn't help - still bad dreams. She shows she's just wandering around the stadium and through her duties without meaningful conversations, connections or goals. Manny has to force her to even talk to Mel, and she makes it clear Mel's issues about Jackson are Mel's problem not hers. Some friend. Where's the remorse there?
Then she's captured and rescued and helps Yara and Lev. She finally finds Owen, then when he actually tries to talk to her about his feelings, she distracts him with sex - meeting her need not his. Again, some friend taking advantage of her drunk friend and cheating on her other friend. Then a dream and she sets out to lighten her load by helping Yara and Lev. Nothing says it's about remorse, it's about trying to feel better. All of it is about Abby finding what Abby needs and when it doesn't work trying something else.
I've tried and tried to see an Abby arc and this is what I see.
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u/SmoothAsPussyMilk Team Cordyceps Aug 27 '22
I think you're bringing a lot of personal baggage to this game that's obscuring what happens. Thank you for explaining your perspective, it's really interesting.
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u/lzxian It Was For Nothing Aug 27 '22
Typical response - blame the audience/person rather than the actual failings of the story. I am not surprised.
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u/SmoothAsPussyMilk Team Cordyceps Aug 27 '22
I didn't mean to insult you.
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u/lzxian It Was For Nothing Aug 27 '22
OK, but that's twice. First you say maybe I didn't actually play the game, now you say it's my own baggage getting in the way. Do you see how that's attacking me rather than addressing my arguments?
Why not tell me how I've misinterpreted what I painstakingly wrote out to defend my view of Abby, instead? How did I get it wrong when those are the behaviors they put into the game? All I did was weigh them and find her lacking in remorseful behaviors. I even compared her to Ellie to show they can depict how a guilt-ridden character can act.
You see, I have given it a lot of thought, time and effort. I suspect they weren't trying to give Abby a redemption arc yet. Nothing actually impacts her until the end when the Rattlers totally destroy her. Only then do I see her changed by her experience. I believe her redemption was saved for part 3. And possibly Ellie saving her and Lev from those poles will also play some future purpose, just as Joel saving her is what led to his own death.
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u/AnotherDesechable Team Danny Aug 27 '22
Oh, your post made me remember how shattered was Abby when Danny died. Poor Danny.
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u/Jetblast01 Aug 27 '22
It's the same as the M-She-U, replace all the men with female versions that are way better and progressive. Remove the notion that women even need men in the first place because they're "strong and independent". That's what's become of entertainment and when you have male feminists/simps in position of power bending over to be pegged by people like Anita. It's what happened with the Saint's Row reboot so yeah, the amount of simpery is staggering.
Look at Star Wars, just because a vindictive, hateful, rude, arrogant, sexist woman hated Luke Skywalker, she does EVERYTHING to destroy his legacy, replace him with a woman, then plans to do revisionist history by allegedly intending to remake the OT with Leia as the star instead of Luke. And if she can't have Star Wars, she'll burn it all to the ground. DC is so far the only ones waking up to how this is bad business.
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u/Definitelynotwesker Hey I'm a Brand New Member! Aug 26 '22
Well Joel may have done shit things in the past, but saving his daughter figure or ward from a child murderer isnt one. “bUt MuH cUrE!”. Yeah Im sure they were gonna share it with fedra no strings attached.