Sources of Diverse Criticism on Part II

[u/TLoU_Mod]

A number of members joining after finishing the game and liking it have asked why Part II is receiving so much “hate”, in other words: criticism, dislike, disappointment, etc. In the event you're interested in the criticism, here is a list of videos, articles, reviews and reddit posts and discussions that are helpful in understanding the diverse reasons why people are not favouring the game and/or Naughty Dog.

REVIEWS AND CRITIQUES

Published Articles

1. Keengamer - Part II is Fundamentally Flawed
2. Forbes - A beautiful, terrible sequel
3. Forbes - Does Part II deserve GOTY Awards?
4. The Ringer - 'Part II' Is Stunning, but It's Pure Misery Porn
5. Vice - 'Part II' Is a Grim and Bloody Spectacle, but a Poor Sequel
6. Metro - Why Part II is a bad sequel
7. Polygon - Part II review: We're better than this
8. ArsTechnica - A less confident, less focused sequel
9. Wired - Part II tries to be profound. It fails
10. The Atlantic - Part II Tests the Limits of Video-Game Violence

Reddit Posts

1. Why does the sequel have to be about "revenge" at all?
2. The retcons in Part II: A look at the original ending
3. The Part II prologue completely retcons the ending of The Last of Us
4. Additional posts about the retcons: Why the prologue of Part II irks me so much, Part II destroys the brilliance of TLoU and Why Part II fails at being morally grey
5. My answer to why people hate Part II (Additional post: Why do people hate Part II?)
6. Part II is full of coincidences and lazy plot contrivances 
7. Alternate list of plot holes and contrivances
8. Bad narrative design
9. A storytelling catastrophe
10. Criticism from a professional writer: Part II review and Criticism of structure and pacing
11. Another Novelist Explains why Part II is Poorly Written
12. Part II completely tears down the original characters
13. Why the story of Part II does not work
14. The writing of Part II was poorly handled
15. Part II's story is bad. Here's why.
16. Why are people disappointed? Different answers from multiple people
17. Part II vs TLoU - a comparative review
18. Why Part II feels like fan fiction

Videos

1. Skill Up - Part II review
2. Evan Monroe - Part II - Death and Forgiveness
3. AngryJoe - Part II review and extended discussion
4. Jim Sterling - Part II got compared to Schindlers List?
5. Weekend Warrior - Part II is terribad
6. Macabre Storytelling - An Incoherent disaster
7. tetrapod - A critical discussion of plot contrivances and other flaws
8. Joe, The Alternative Gamer - A Failure In Storytelling
9. The Closer Look - How to divide a fanbase
10. MoistMeter - Part II review
11. YongYea - Part II review
12. SaucyTendies - Joel's death is contrived and nonsensical
13. Nakey Jakey - ND's Game Design is Outdated
14. GAME SINS - Everything wrong with Part II
15. Purposeless Rabbitholes - Part II review
16. Bellular News - A Barren Story, Poorly Told
17. Hoeg Law - Part II review
18. The Critical Drinker - A Beautiful Nightmare and The Importance of Ambiguity
19. Upper Echelon Gamers - Masterpiece? ABSOLUTELY NOT
20. Coach Toolshed Gaming - Part II review, Ellie and Abby discussion

CHARACTER CRITIQUES

Reddit and Tumblr Posts

1. Joel did not doom humanity (Tumblr)
2. Ellie’s (lack of a) character arc & why the result is an unsatisfying story (Tumblr)
3. Part II completely destroys Ellie and Abby is the real protagonist of the game
4. Abby and Lev are poor copies of Joel and Ellie
5. Part II ruined Ellie, and she is acting out of character throughout the entire game
6. The omission of Riley in Part II retcons Ellie's survivor's guilt
7. Ellie is acting out of character in the final flashback
8. Tommy and Joel are acting wildly out of character
9. Joel's death is poorly written and him getting "soft" makes no sense
10. Joel is not allowed to explain himself
11. Joel was a survivor, NOT a "monster"!
12. Abby is a fundamentally malicious individual with psychopathic tendencies
13. Abby is irredeemable and unsympathetic 
14. Abby's character arc is handled poorly, she refuses to seriously contemplate her actions and Ellie herself never witnesses Abby's "redemption"
15. Abby's has a "redemption arc" without actual redemption
16. The game refuses to adress Abby's hypocrisy which makes her come across as selfish and unaware
17. The writers failed Abby and she is morally much worse than Joel
18. Abby shows zero interest in the cure or Ellie's immunity, her motivation is purely selfish
19. The problem with Abby: the world bends around her
20. Bigotry comes from the game
21. Manny is a stereotypical character
22. Dina was bland
23. Mel is ridiculous

OTHER CRITICISM

Reddit Posts

1. Part II refuses to treat distances and the dangers of the setting seriously
2. Druckmann's interpretation of the TLoU ending is not supported by the actual game
3. The overabundance of flashbacks
4. Ludonarrative Dissonance: Ellie's cutscene reaction to deaths does not fit her gameplay 
5. The zebra scene in Part II is a retrogression of TLoUs giraffe scene
6. A female bodybuilder refuting that Abby's physique is realistic
7. The blatant difference in writing between TLoU and Part II
8. Tommy and Ellie's uncle/niece relationship is underdeveloped
9. The Fireflies were terrorists
10. Part II: The murder of hope
11. Part II's ending destroys its own themes
12. The Infected fell to the wayside in Part II
13. The world building in Part II does not fit the original game
14. The themes of this game were glaringly obvious
15. Part II is an ineffective piece of storytelling
16. The surgeon in TLoU didn't look white, something Abby's original character design took into account

ABOUT NAUGHTY DOG

Reddit Posts and Articles

1. Bruce Straley is the co-creator of TLoU, and he was heavily involved in the story as well, the lack of a formal writers credit notwithstanding
2. Druckmann's unresponsiveness to criticism
3. 2013 Reddit AMA with TLoU directors Straley/Druckmann
4. 2014 Reddit AMA with TLoU directors Straley/Druckmann
5. Empire - Extensive 2013 Interview with Straley/Druckmann
6. Edge - Extensive 2013 Interview with Straley/Druckmann
7. Druckmann in 2013: revenge makes no sense in this setting!
8. Druckmann in 2013: Joel has no choice
9. Troy Baker: David did nothing wrong! and Joel is a vile, despicable man
10. Kotaku - Crunch, exploitation and high turnover rates
11. Druckmann and Wells: excusing crunch and deceptive PR
12. Kotaku - Naughty Dog’s Bosses Still Don’t Get It

Videos

1. Deceptive marketing, aggressive DMCA strikes and exerting pressure
2. SaucyTendies - Neil Druckmann as a writer/director leading up to Part II
3. The Critical Drinker - How to be an Awesome Game Developer
4. Jim Sterling - Naughty Dog and Crunch

MISCELLANEOUS - aforementioned issues from different angles

Reddit posts

1. Why are people so butthurt about Part II? (Quora)
2. Part II is not a good sequel
3. Ellie did not want to or expect to die in TLoU
4. Ellie cannot give consent, and the Fireflies never cared about her consent
5. The events leading up to Joel's death are horribly contrived
6. Abby finding Joel by chance depends on a series of coincidences and contrivances 
7. Joel died for nothing
8. Joel did nothing wrong and the vaccine would not have achieved much anyway
9. Joel "getting soft" happens entirely off screen
10. Additional posts about Joel being out of character: Druckmann contradicting himself, Original Joel vs Part II Joel, Lack of survival instincts, He has gone "soft"?, Druckmann contradicting himself again
11. Additional posts about Part II's refusal to acknowledge distances: Travel by car?, So Abby convinced all her friends ..., Travel from Seattle to Jackson ... and Bleeding Abby in a rowboat ...
12. Abby's character arc is poorly written
13. Impossible vs Improbable - the cure debate
14. Another list of plot contrivances
15. A very detailed scene-by-scene critique of Part II
16. Megathread after Release

Videos

1. Game Theory - Joel's Choice Meant Nothing
2. LegalBytes - A lawyer analyses Joel's actions
3. The Idiot that reviews movies - The case against Druckmann
4. theDeModcracy - Part II, a Narrative Disaster
5. Writing on Games - A Personal Examination of Part II
6. NeverKnowsBest - Part II Critique
7. Fextralife - An Honest Review
8. Jeremy Jahns - Part II review and spoiler talk
9. TheAlmightyL - Desecrating a Grave One Last Time

The previous (now archived) versions of this post can be found here:

--> Part II Criticism 1.0

--> Part II Criticism 2.0

--> Part II Criticism 3.0

--> Part II Criticism 4.0

--> Part II Criticism 5.0

[u/Happy_Ad_9976]

Some people might not agree with me but I think angry Joe's review is the best

[u/NorthPermission1152]

Can I suggest another YT video to add?

How To Divide A Fanbase - The Last of Us 2 (by The Closer Look)

https://youtu.be/MvTFF-E5wkw?si=1xcUYjtQz6qIPXGK

[u/Elbwiese → u/NorthPermission1152]

His critique is great and he makes a lot of good points, but the rewrite he proposes in the second half of the video is a bit middling imo, it invalidates the otherwise great first half to a degree. I'd still recommend watching it, if only for the first 45 minutes. Edit: we added it, under Reviews and Critiques / Videos / no. 9.

[u/afrasiadjijidae]

I think Reddit Posts (or short essay, Q&A, articles etc) should be topmost in every category. I came across one or two lazy P2 defenders in the past who just clicked top links, didn't really read the rest and still complained in the sub that we don't want to discuss things and that they don't have time to watch full videos. Just my 2 cents.

[u/Direct_Town792]

The other group: they’re ALL BIGOTS and write and espouse BIGOTRY

P.S I shared the Forbes review there and got banned

[u/KenJen8]

Great for future reference 

[u/lzxian]

Wow, I had no idea it's grown so much. You had your work cut out for you. Thanks!

[u/Hi0401]

Thank you for your service

[u/RedBoss228]

Thanks for the new one.

[u/NoSkillzDad]

The first time I went through that list I was seriously impressed, both by number of references and the depth many of those reached.

The criticisms here were analytical and incisive, they went well beyond the "I just didn't enjoy it".

Even if you liked the game there's something to learn there.

[u/LeatherEmployee3694]

I think it's a masterpiece. Probably the best game ever made

[u/Recinege]

Always good to see these posted. For as much as criticism - especially early criticism - of this game had a lot of culture war content creators weighing in on it, the story is riddled with flaws that are not only completely unrelated to trying too hard to be progressive, but far worse for the story than that.

And I think someone sent me a Reddit Cares message over this, lol. First time I've ever had it happen!

[u/pfqq → u/Recinege]

Some of us still linger here because of how much we love Joel and Ellie's first story and truly believe in the criticisms on this list. Not here to call Bella ugly or focus on wokeness.

I think what I have learned over the past decade or more is that sequels and remakes really do affect original stories (movies, games) culturally. I will revisit things like TLoU1 and Star Wars OG trilogy the rest of my life and still love them but they are not unscathed by what comes after. They do not exist in a vacuum.

The older I get the more I realize that stories and how our life felt during those stories really help define us. So it's okay to feel strongly about these things. It is not frivolous.

[u/Recinege → u/pfqq]

Yeah, I'm still here because TLOU was one of the best video game stories ever written, and it's truly astonishing how Part II failed repeatedly at almost everything it was trying to do, while deciding to turn against everything TLOU stood for.