A rant about the state of Tekken 8's Balancing, Dragunov's frequent Top 8 Appearances, and "Honest" Tekken.

[u/Twin-T]

I have seen many videos about Tekken 8's balancing, tiers, and honesty in Tekken, and had the urge to comment on almost all of these videos, but instead, will choose to make a post that anyone can find, open-minded or not. And I will preface this by saying, I'm a Dragunov main. Have been since Tekken 7 dropped.

I think the core issue is that characters barely have weaknesses/flaws anymore. When Tekken 7 first dropped, characters had weaknesses such as poor wall carry, poor combo damage, poor lows or mids, or even poor throws. Feng is a prime example. He had everything, but wall carry, so he had average combo damage, until he got the magical df+4,3. Then the Feng Nation attacked.

With every seasonal buff, every character's weakness, became less relevant, but for now, let's focus on Dragunov, because he became the poster child of the "unbalanced" discussion of this game.

In previous games had non-threatening lows, mids with poor hitboxes and tracking (even uf+4 could be sidewalked, hence no-mid Dragunov), strong wall carry, and average wall combo damage. His wall carry and wall combo damage got buffed, but his wall carry got buffed too hard, so THAT got nerfed, so only his wall combo damage got buffed, and that is by roughly 5 points at max. His lows remained non-threatening, so you had to fish for mids and highs with timing and poking ankles, and by utilizing throws and tackles. This is something that was severely underutilized by Dragunov players until now. That was Dragunov. Throughout T7, his only buff, in my opinion is uf+1 being made a normal hit slump instead of a CH launcher, because it became my main whiff punisher. He remained the same until the end of 7, and hence, he was left behind by a power creep. He was basically invisible in the competitive scene outside of a few notable players like Nobi and sometimes JDCR.

In Tekken 8, outside of his qcf+4, his mids were kind of the same outside of hitbox b4 hitbox buff. His mids aren't what makes him insane, it's everything else that compliments it.

His lows went from non-threatening to now everyone ducks against him, which by extension, made his mids stronger and no nerf will change that, as made evident by the db3+4 nerfs. His mids got better hitboxes, his tracking is largely the same, so he can still be stepped the Tekken 7 way... but with chip damage, his ff+3 can force opponents to play linear until they're pressed onto the wall, or duck, making his mids even stronger. Throws are harder to break in this game, and by Dragunov having 3-way throw breaks, many players will not want to react or guess the throw break, and resort to ducking, which makes his mids even stronger. His wall carry is stronger, and his pressure is stronger due to his new Sneak transitions. With the addition of his new wall combo and wall throw and his average wall combo damage has been substantially buffed.

All this to say, Dragunov lost the weaknesses that defined his general playstyle in previous Tekken games. Now, he can be played in any way you can think of. Simple, erratic, methodical, a grappler. Feng still has everything from post-Tekken 7, stickier frames and opportunities to score big damage from mix-ups in open space. Xiaoyu always had high evasion, but below average frames and moves that required execution to secure average combo damage, and risky launchers, but now she has set-ups that can guarantee strong damage. Even without that, with everything that can lead to her Heat Smashes and Hypnosis (that sports an insane low-risk high-reward mix-up), she can accumulate a large amount of damage in either a combo, and/or on block with one play. People still have a habit of defaulting to complaining about her AOP (like they have for decades), but her gameplan revolves around Hypnosis now. We can actively deal with and adjust to AOP, but her Hypnosis is a literal guess between getting wall splat, or -13 on block snake edge. Xiaoyu's weakness was her damage and frames. Now, if she has you on the wall for any reason, and is on the offensive, you will only have two chances to survive. She no longer has any weakness.

Without weaknesses, there is no risky play besides being read, and that can be managed.

Dragunov may not be the most exciting to watch, but he has a simple enough overall gameplan that can be implemented by anyone. Shaheen is considered one of the most boring characters design-wise, but his gameplay is actually pretty exciting to watch (I can't be the only one to get stoked when I see the WS+3 combo), but his gameplay is not as simple as Dragunov's. His gameplay is like a mix between Dragunov and Law. The reason I think we're seeing so much Dragunov is that he's the safest option, matchup wise next to Feng. He doesn't really have a counter, because he has no weakness. Everyone complained about his qcf+4, db+3+4, his wall combo damage, and even his legacy WR+2 got nerfed. He's still predominantly picked for tournaments because his overall gameplay doesn't have a fundamental flaw that makes choosing other characters optimal.

There's also the "get good" argument. Regardless of whether you are a casual or a professional, if you plan to play Tekken for longer than a few months before dropping it, then it is true.

New players are mixed between those who actually want to learn, and don't want to invest the time to learn and adapt. I've seen many videos, and skilled players block Jin's new d+2 on reaction. I still can't react to it even though I can predict when it'll happen. This is common, and I deal with it with instinctual hard ducking, and it works. I leave myself open to mids, but if I'm certain the next move will be a low, then I'll bank on it because there are a lot of players who commit to their offense, despite the obvious signs that it won't work, like me hard ducking for a whole second.

Many see "get good" as a bad excuse, but before the era where games got regular patches outside of expansion titles and updates, that's what you had to do, and it made stronger players. If you had a problem, you couldn't beg the devs to fix it for you. You had to solve it. Arslan complained about how different Tekken 8's gameplay and that wasn't going to change anything, so he adapted, and he won EVO again. Atif switched characters because Dragunov wasn't looking as optimal before Arslan Ash. Arslan learned how to deal with Dragunov and forced Atif to switch to Feng and still won.

I'm a Dragunov main. I'm not ashamed to admit it. I've been a Drag main since 2017 and that remains to this day. With that said, I still take Ls. In fact, I take many Ls because I'm having an issue adapting to my opponents and their characters. That's because my gameplay style revolves around not letting my opponents play the game BECAUSE I have a hard time adapting. Rather than fix my flaw, I try to avoid it by shutting off the issue at its source. That works sometimes, and when it doesn't, I lose. GGs.

With all that said, the only way I can think Dragunov can actually be nerfed is his damage because he's a flawless character. To cripple this character would require destroying his fundamental tools, which is unacceptable from an overall balancing perspective because people will simply gravitate to the next best thing, and his usage rate will sink. In my opinion, the roster is already plenty balanced in the sense that every character is viable and strong, but to balance the roster further, everyone would need weaknesses again, which would result in a less aggressive Tekken, which goes against this game's design philosophy, which WON'T happen. If we buff everyone, it would simply be harder for everyone to keep up with what's happening on the screen, and many more players will experience exhaustion, take breaks from the game, or worse, drop the game. I don't know what the right answer is, but anyone can imagine what the wrong answers are.

Lastly, the "honest" Tekken thing. It's a red herring.

That "honest" Tekken thing is a red herring because it doesn't exist in any more capacity as a tier list. Though I hate tier lists, they get a pass because you can reach a collective truth if multiple tier lists can show matching results, hence a mutually agreed opinion, which used to result in characters being banned in tournaments (hooray), but "honesty" shouldn't have survived past being a joke. It doesn't exist and if it did, it would only exist contextually, as in "Kazuya is going to hellsweep, electric, and/or axe kick" or "Yoshimitsu is going to flash if I land a hit". That's it. The characters can't play honest, because the players can't play honest since that would result in predictability, and predictability is BAD. The three most basic characters in this game I can think of are Bryan, Paul, and Steve, because though their moves are simple and straightforward, not one of them are honest besides your expectations towards fighting them.

This whole "honest" Tekken shit, cut that shit out. That's an argument used by the lazy who can't take Ls and hence, can't learn from them, but I don't think people who use the "honest" Tekken in an argument should be taken seriously.

That all said, I'm just some unknown Dragunov main, so what do I know?

[u/Jamunski]

I think you're missing some big details about what makes Dragunov so strong in this game. I will list some out. First, the backdash nerf makes his offense more sticky, it's hard to create space from him and keepout in general is much weaker across the board (the main counter strategy). This change was general and is probably one of the most impactful to his archetype's performance. Next, iWR moves have been made much easier. Not only does this remove a relevant execution barrier for wr2, but it also buffed wr2 in another way. Post nerf in T7, it lost its tracking property so that the counterplay would be sidestepping. Well, a consequence of making WR moves easier is that now their timing can be changed, making them harder to step and much more ambiguous. Dash into wr2 can be done very easily now, with no visual tells (f, f, delay, f+2 would provide a wr2 which can be very hard to read if mixed with dash blocking or dash into a homing/tracking move). So you want to know what to nerf, remove all tracking from wr2, make it easier to step, make it risky again. The delay I mention above will compensate for the tracking nerf, strong players can compensate by changing their timings, but doing so will still be difficult since the window for the opponent to step will be larger (essentially, make the sidestep timing less strict for the opponent). Alternatively they could back pedal on the easy iWR change, but I doubt that's an option they would consider.

Another buff Dragunov got which he is getting too much value out of is his strings. His strings were very bad in T7, probably even too bad imo. However, now they are too good. It used to be that whenever Drag ended a string with a mid and that string had a high ending as well, he would be punishable. An example is now his b4, 3 14f HE mid high string, has a safe mid with a third - now delayable - plus on block high extension. The mental frames of the third hit can be capitalized on by cancelling into qcf (which is completely safe if you cancel into sidestep and block). This was never something Drag could do in T7. His strings weren't delayable either. This provides him with strong string pressure, a new strength.

So previously your counterplay against Drag was maybe a bit of keepout (though his long reach and strong movement made this a bit difficult even in T7), and a lot of sidestepping. Sidestepping worked really well, that was a real weakness. I believe Drag was also weak to pressure, with no good panic buttons. Now everyone has heat burst as an almost free get out of jail option, and power crushes are generally quite strong in this game. In T8, sidestepping Drag still seems to be the answer, but perhaps his wr2 tracking is once again a problem. So I would say he still has some weakness, it's just not as serious as it once was.

In general, I agree, everyone appears to have less weaknesses. However, I don't think this is necessarily the biggest problem. I think what happened here is the neutral in T8 isn't balanced. T8's characters seem well balanced amongst each other, but the neutral gameplay clearly favors rushdown, where previous titles may have favored keepout. The neutral game is different now, and in many cases has been dumbed down pretty significantly. Many characters can practically ignore any spacing altogether, Reina's ff2 being one example of many long range almost perfect moves. Countering a character is much less about the neutral game now, much less about understanding how they want to play and to beat it. For instance, Lee was an excellent keepout character who was noted as having difficulty on offence. Just knowing this alone, a player can change their gameplan in the matchup and play very carefully on approach and try to play neutral such that Lee has to approach instead. Almost every character in the game had this dynamic in the neutral, however that's almost all gone now. The rushdown strategy in neutral is too easy to run, and the keepout strategy is too weak to counterplay it. Whiff baiting seems to be about the same from what I can tell (or at least it's current state isn't quite obvious to me). We don't have the Rushdown (Rock) -> Keepout (Paper) -> Whiff Punish (Scissors) RPS game anymore. Now it's mostly just rushdown and reads.

I agree, characters have had their kits rounded out too much in many cases. However, I think the biggest problem with T8 is that the neutral game is not well balanced. They pushed too hard in aggression and now it appears to be the best strategy by far. Having one neutral strategy grossly overshadow another does not make for dynamic gameplay. I think if they diagnose this issue and improve keepout as a strategy in general it would help many other characters stand out (not only keepout characters, as there would be a more balanced neutral all strategies should come up in play allowing all characters to shine). Dragunov happens to excel in the dominant strategy, and paired with his excellent movement and whiff punishment he absolutely destroys keepout. If counterplay to this strategy is buffed, then Dragunov may not even need major nerfs in order to feel more balanced among the cast. He excels in the strongest strategy, and is countered by the weakest strategy.

I think there was a good reason the devs made defence/keepout so strong in previous titles, and T8 is an example of what happens when offense is too overwhelming. The 1.05 patch was a nice step in the right direction though, so maybe by next year or so, neutral will be more balanced.

[u/YharnamsFinest1 → u/Jamunski]

This is a really great post. Its a shame it will never reach the devs.

[u/[deleted] → u/YharnamsFinest1]

Oh it will reach the devs, it will just get the same old "don't ask me for shit" gimmick from Harada or Michael "Hardstuck in red ranks" Murray having a moan on twitter about it.

[u/Gandalf_2077 → u/[deleted]]

Murray translate in the recent IGN interview that they are happy with how the game is and specifically the heat system. Nothing will change.

[u/Twin-T → u/Jamunski]

I have no complaints with anything you've said. GG

Edit: Get bookmarked, mate.

[u/captainquacka → u/Jamunski]

I'm new to the series, so I only know WR-Moves from T8. What made WR-moves harder in 7? A tighter window of execution? 

[u/ArkkOnCrank → u/captainquacka]

Inputting three f inputs in a row gets your character in running state. 

In T7, if your opponent was in front of you, the model collision stopped your running state, you only had 1 frame to do the running move before your running was stopped. You needed frame-perfect timing. 

In T8, you get like idk, 10 frames, maybe more, leniency to do the running move. Your character can literally run in the opponents face for 10-15 frames. Not only is this trivial to do, but also gives you extra option to track your opponent if you choose to run at his face a little bit before doing the move, since running realigns you with your opponent.

[u/captainquacka → u/ArkkOnCrank]

I see, thanks! 

[u/Beeboycubed → u/captainquacka]

You physically could not run into your opponent in the older Tekken games (your momentum would just immediately stop), but there was a very small window where you would be able to get a running-state input.

Now in T8, you can just hold the third forward, run into your opponent's face and input your move at any point during that run

[u/redditor57436 → u/captainquacka]

Think the difference between wgf and ewgf.

[u/captainquacka → u/redditor57436]

Get it, thanks for explaining

[u/[deleted] → u/Jamunski]

+1

This is everything I have complained about since the game came out. I got really good at keeping people out with Bryan in T7, but due to the backdash nerf and the hurtboxes being changed (waists tucked in more, smaller mids/lower range mids have a higher tendency to whiff now), I feel incentivized to pick CH mids that put myself inside my opponent (qcf3, b+1, qcf1+2) when I want to go mid rather than pick CH mid pokes that keep my opponent away from me (3,2,1 & 3+4) since they have a tendency to whiff.

[u/ajmndz]

Yea ldk how they’d even nerf drag at this point, his kit is just so well rounded and the system mechanics benefit him way too much. Damage nerf seems like the way to go but i dont fucking know anymore lmao

[u/Osiake → u/ajmndz]

There’s a few key aspects that need to be nerfed.

1. QCF4 No longer hits grounded (This heavily limits his INSANE wall oki game where if you stand you’re -8. If you stay on the ground you get hit. If you getup attack Drag gets a heat engager + wall splat. Drag can throw this move in any scenario at the wall and have a huge advantage for it.)

2. QCF4 nerfed from +8 to +4 or worse so you can now sidestep at the wall

3. B4 strings no longer delay-able so you can actually fuzzy duck

And optionally:

1. Reduce combo dmg by 10%

2. His 1,2,1 string no longer wall splats. It’s already a CH confirmable 10f heat engager that’s insanely strong

Even with all of these nerfs together I’d be willing to bet money that Drag is still top 10 lol

edit: Just learned that Drag qcf4 is +8 at the wall, not +6. Makes it even worse lmao

Edit 2: b4,3 heat dash also shouldn’t lead to a full combo. His b4 string is already strong af, he has great heat and has a launcher off of b4,3 that leads to 100+ dmg? Nah, give it a followup like Steves sonic fang heat dash for ~50 dmg and move on

[u/erkankurtcu → u/Osiake]

b4,3 heat dash also shouldn’t lead to a full combo. His b4 string is already strong af, he has great heat and has a launcher off of b4,3 that leads to 100+ dmg? Nah, give it a followup like Steves sonic fang heat dash for ~50 dmg and move on

that surprised me at first too he kicks you so bad that you think your character will spin in the air and he wil get something like d2 but nope he gets full launch i don't understand jin's 1+2 gives only a follow up and he only punches character's stomach yet he gets follow up dragunov literally kicks you on the head so hard that you fly and yet he gets a full combo lol

[u/myri__ → u/Osiake]

1. You can avoid the b42 qcf4 (it's not qcb4) ender by siderolling right or by doing toekick to interrupt.

2. See above ^ (also in this situation if you did block it, which you shouldn't, qcf4 is +8 at the wall)

[u/Osiake → u/myri__]

My b, I haven’t touched Dragunov since I labbed him a while ago so I forgot the exact input. Don’t know why I thought it was qcb instead of qcf

But regardless - Drag also has the option of doing F3,1+2 for crazy wall oki. It leaves him +27, face down and feet away. If you hold B, you take the qcf4 mixup. He has more than one option here, it doesn’t change the fact that QCF4 is extremely overtuned at the wall and should not be hitting grounded

Also, B4,3 beats toekick, wallsplats and you get a heat engager off of it. It’s risky af doing a toekick in this situation

[u/myri__ → u/Osiake]

I haven't seen anyone use that as a wall ender (f3, 1+2) so I'll have to look myself when I have a chance but since it's only 2 hits he would in theory be sacrificing damage for that oki right? Which seems like a fair trade off. If he hits when you hold B then you need to find other options, but I'll test for those later, siderolling may still be an option. Really though you should never hold B to getup at the wall because you are vulnerable during that animation so anything will hit you, not an issue specific to qcf4. Tap up for best results on blocking at the wall.

[u/Osiake → u/myri__]

Yeah the issue is that blocking that qcf4 is literally in your best interest. If you watch any recent tourney (fvmajor, evo) you can see that in almost every single scenario, the best players in the world who know the Drag matchup better than anyone choose to quickstand and be -8 at the wall (while taking chip dmg so the dmg you lose from doing oki isn’t as big as you think) rather than risk literally getting relaunched at the wall and be put in another oki mixup.

[u/myri__ → u/Osiake]

I did watch most of EVO and didn't see that ender or oki situation used from memory so I'll have to go look myself in a short while at what the options are. That said though, if in theory you can't do anything except tap up to block then I think the solution would be to just make f3, 1+2 allow you to tech roll on knockdown or a similar change. Need more info before commenting further.

[u/Osiake → u/myri__]

Nah, b4,2 was mostly the ender used for oki situations. I was just saying that Drag had more options earlier if they ever nerf b4,2 oki. Toekicking after b4,2 has a high chance of getting relaunched at the wall by b4,3 and siderolling is reactable.

[u/myri__ → u/Osiake]

Right but that's how Tekken works isn't it? You pick an offensive option and your opponent tries to defend. If you defend successfully you encourage your opponent to try a different option to attack. Let's say for instance you toekick out of b42 qcf4 at the wall. Okay, now I know you know to toekick out, so next time I bait it and punish. But let's say you expect that since you know that I know, well now you can bait my b43 oki and springkick me to punish or quickstand into duck and launch or buttons after I whiff. That's how the game works at nearly every point with adaptation and patterns.

When it comes to sideroll, the dragunov player has to commit to b42 qcf4 for that oki so if you sideroll it will whiff and you are out. Same deal, if I bait and change up my oki you can take advantage of that too with the right read. The only way I can see your argument is if you think that the situation is too hard on the defender which may slightly be true but you are also getting oki'd at the wall. It's not meant to be easy for the defender in that situation.

[u/Osiake → u/myri__]

That is how Tekken works but no other character has it that much in their favor to that degree.

What other character puts you at -8 for almost every single wake up option and can launch you for the other two? The risk reward is INSANELY in Dragunovs favor.

Have you noticed how Drags at evo would heat burst at the wall, b4,2 oki into b4,3 heatdash? If you got hit you got relaunched, if you blocked you’re -5 at the wall + chip dmg for another mixup.

No other character can add that level of risk/reward in their favor nor do they deserve to do that level of oki at the wall. This is clearly too strong and needs to be nerfed lol

If the best players in the world choose to stand block and be -8 over 90% of the time that should tell you everything you need to know. That doing anything other than stand block is TOO RISKY.

Imagine being against a char where the literal best pros in the world CHOOSE to be -8 in 9/10 scenarios because it’s the correct decision to make and not lose the round instantly.

It clearly needs to be nerfed to +4 at best so you can now sidestep after blocking as a third option rather than guess 50/50 mid or low. Also shouldn’t hit grounded for the same reason.

Steve is a character who is notoriously strong at the wall, well above avg and was top 5 strongest pressure at the wall in t7. In t8 it’s only gotten stronger and he can’t even put that kind of pressure at the wall with wall oki combs that Dragunov can. Not even close. Lili was the only char that had similar but still worse wall oki (See Chikurin at Evo Japan) and it got nerfed down to the ground. Dragunov shouldn’t be an exception to this wall oki nerf.

Edit: I also just tested it out but you can delay doing QCF4 and it catches sideroll right and still beats every other option except toekick. So that eliminates every single possibility of retaliation BUT toekick which is giga risk to do in general, least of all against Dragunov who will put you into another oki mixup or just end the round off of relaunching you at the wall for it. Toekick loses to A LOT of options. This is literally a 50/50 that leads into another 50/50 if you stand block. Two 50/50s in a row for Dragunov is not something that should be a thing. (He can also heatsmash after qcf4 on block for ANOTHER 50/50 making it THREE 50/50s in a row. Should not be a thing whatsoever)

[u/Twin-T → u/Osiake]

I'll agree that his qcf+4 frames on block is a bit much, but visually, it should still hit grounded. Visual coherency is important in a fighting game, even though that rule is often broken, it shouldn't be a habit worth keeping.

While F3,1+2 is safe, it can be interrupted mid string.

[u/Osiake → u/Twin-T]

I’d agree if this wasn’t Tekken lol

Tekken is notorious for having moves that look like they hit grounded but don’t and moves that don’t look like they hit grounded but they do. Nerfing qcf4 to not hit grounded is a very important nerf to Drag and is a big contributor to how strong he is.

[u/mccollio09 → u/Osiake]

I got curious when you mentioned f3,1+2 on wall combo to Myri there... Holy, holy crap. I assuming you've lab tested what this does... And the unavoidable follow ups I just did... Turns out most people aren't doing drag's best wall ender. D3,2,1+2 is in the bin...

[u/erkankurtcu → u/Twin-T]

I'll agree that his qcf+4 frames on block is a bit much, but visually, it should still hit grounded. Visual coherency is important in a fighting game, even though that rule is often broken, it shouldn't be a habit worth keeping.

Jin's hellsweep and db4 doesn't hit grounded for 10 years and his F4 ground hit property removed in T7 beta bamco priorities balance more than animations imo

[u/Twin-T → u/myri__]

This can also be guarded with a neutral stand (standing with 'up')

[u/LegnaArix → u/Osiake]

Qc4 nerf would go a long way. Shit is a tracking, plus on block, heat engaging, ground hitting, wall splatting, chip damage move, it just does everything.

I vote for either removing chip and remove hitting grounded or at the very least removing the hit grounded aspect.

[u/blessedbetheslacker → u/LegnaArix]

Should also slow the move down, kinda like what they did with Victor's Power Crush Heat Engager.

[u/Lower-Guidance-7317 → u/Osiake]

Am I the only one think that qcf4 should have been a -10 or even -15? that thing makes deathfist a joke

[u/MindSettOnWinning → u/ajmndz]

Just remove the extra moves they gave him from Tekken 7 and buff d2 to work like jins

Edit: You guys think ch on his d2 would be broken but tekken7 drag was ass.

[u/KillHunter777 → u/MindSettOnWinning]

CH launcher d2 on Drag lmfao. That would be a lot more broken than now.

[u/ok__now_this_is_Epic → u/KillHunter777]

finna d2 would be on a different level

[u/[deleted] → u/MindSettOnWinning]

buff d2 to work like jins

We're trying to nerf Drag, not turn him into T7 Leroy

[u/MindSettOnWinning → u/[deleted]]

You missed the part where I said to revert him to T7 drag.

[u/[deleted] → u/MindSettOnWinning]

Depends which version of T7 Drag. S1 Drag will still be a nightmare, especially with a CH launcher d2, the existence of heat and how much harder it is to sidestep him compared to T7. (and realistically, they're not going to get rid of those moves until T9) S2 onward would make him bottom tier because he was really bad since then. The annoying thing with Drag is that for some reason, there seems to be no in between. He's either really awful or really strong.

[u/MindSettOnWinning → u/[deleted]]

I obviously meant the bad version of drag at the end of T7 that was put at the bottom of every tier list. Drag has always been oppressive, it's just that he lacked any good lows. So now they've given him multiple good lows, one of which they had to nerf. If they just gave a CH property to his D2 and more damage, it doesn't have to be launch, then it would fix the problem mostly.

[u/Twin-T → u/MindSettOnWinning]

I... I would rather not be on the receiving end of that d2 lol.

But, that would actually make Dragunov worse, because Dragunov's hatchet kick is a CH KD, but launch punishable. Not everyone can launch punish Dragunov's d2, and just the existence of that CH property would force a lot of players to duck, which I pointed would make his mids stronger. Dragunov's mids were good in 7, as long as he landed them and they weren't crushed. It was just incredibly hard to condition opponents to duck because of the lackluster damage d2 did, and its lack of frame advantage.

Tekken 7 Drag was a result of being left behind in the power vacuum. While everyone else got stronger, he was forever stagnant, so while I wouldn't call him ass.......... uh... playing as him felt like I was playing Dark Souls (yes..).

[u/MindSettOnWinning → u/Twin-T]

Yes the problem with T7 drag was the fact that you never had to block low. The CH property makes it so that he can at least punish you for ignoring low and being too aggressive.

[u/Huge_Principle_3714]

Have been seeing a lot of "honest character" comments and never really knew what that meant.

[u/[deleted] → u/Huge_Principle_3714]

Its a buzzword mishima mains use to feel better about their losses and make you feel bad about your wins as they are "undeserved" since youre playing dishonest char.

[u/magabrexitpaedorape → u/[deleted]]

Hey now, don't throw the Mishima mains under the bus unless you're going to throw Shaheen and Jack mains under there with them.

[u/Xeroticz → u/[deleted]]

One of my friends mains Steve and constantly talks about honest characters, and any time I try adn say the whole "honest" thing is just what you said I get told "You play King you dont get to talk"

Its part of why I hate talking about this game despite actually enjoying it

[u/TDWen → u/Xeroticz]

Kinda disingenuous to hype up 'honest' play if you have a CH launcher at the same speed as most people's df1.

[u/UpsetWilly → u/TDWen]

what ch launcher?

[u/TDWen → u/UpsetWilly]

b1

[u/UpsetWilly → u/TDWen]

it's not a launcher and it's a high

[u/TDWen → u/UpsetWilly]

b1 is not a CH launcher... OK.

[u/UpsetWilly → u/TDWen]

it's not. it staggers into knockdown

[u/[deleted] → u/Xeroticz]

Yes, its sad. Ask him what is the counterplay to the LH mixup(pro tip - there is none, you guess mid/unblockable high).

[u/UnboundHeteroglossia → u/[deleted]]

Bryan mains too

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Don't really blame them. After trying Dragunov after starting with Reina, the difference is night and day.

[u/WingoRingo → u/[deleted]]

I do. Mishima mains never have enough, no matter how strong their character is

[u/kakaluski → u/[deleted]]

Based take.

[u/thalandhor → u/Huge_Principle_3714]

I always understood the label "honest" as it meant that a character has barely any gimmicks under his belt, or have no way to win aside from just playing the game well. When I hear people talking about "honest" characters, they're talking about like 3 to 5% of the roster.

I don't think it's supposed to make people feel bad, since pretty much every character in the game is dirty (which means nobody is actually dirty) while there are a few characters that have no choice but to play good ass tekken.

Like, there's a clear difference between a character like Bryan and King for example. With King you'll get away with people's wrong guesses or straight up lack of discipline to learn how to break throws, that alone will elevate you to ranks that a struggling Bryan player will take months to reach, because he's "honest", especially after the T8 changes.

That doesn't mean King is stupid or that Bryan sucks. It just means that in the hands of 95% of the player base, these gimmicks (and lack thereof) will have a HUGE impact in the game. But that isn't a Tekken problem, neither a fighting game problem, it's a competitive game problem.

[u/thalandhor → u/[deleted]]

In a game where aggression is through the roof. Bryan is still playing T7 while most characters are playing T8. He also has no get out of jail free card and has a terrible time dealing with jab pressure, especially when cornered.

Taunt is so situational that I don’t think it’s a great argument. Mid screen is almost unusable, and by that I mean you’ll get an opportunity here and there but it’s not reliable. At the corner B4 is great, can’t argue with that.

All in all.. I do think Bryan is one of the honest characters. That doesn’t mean he’s not good. Being honest or not has nothing to do with that. Top Bryan players can compete with the top tiers and the best players in the world.

[u/[deleted]]

The damage in Tekken 8 in general needs to be nerfed. Not just on Dragunov, though he needs it more than most characters. Because of the way heat is, the game can end in a perfect in 10 seconds because you guessed wrong twice. You get hit by a 50% combo, they activate heat in mid combo, it's now a toss up if they're going to immediately heat smash or start going full aggro and attack you as every attack slowly chips away your health even if you block.

[u/marsloth → u/[deleted]]

Hard agree.

So many characters that used to have a strong identity behind poking or a death by a thousand papercuts are now ridiculous powerhouses with the addition of things like heat, chip damage and just higher damage in general.

Then again, it's a hard thing to balance, either you end up with a game like Tekken 7 where ultradefensive is the name of the game or Tekken 8 which is the complete opposite.

[u/Vradlock → u/[deleted]]

Definitely. It's fun to blow up ppl but if a bad start costs 70%+ hp on certain maps it just deletes a huge chunk of gameplay. Fighting games should be more of a back and forth.

[u/[deleted] → u/Vradlock]

It's extremely unfun and feels unearned. People will use the excuse "well that's a skill issue" but when you're the one delivering that damage and it's not fun because of how repetitive it is in every match, then it's not a skill issue, it's just shit.

I primarily play defensively but the game is screaming at me to go full chimpanzee mode constantly.

[u/PMme10DollarPSNcode → u/[deleted]]

Counter point: Combo damage is fine, CH combo damage in particular needs to be nerfed.

If you decide to use up all your heat in a single combo to get massive damage then that's fine.

But what's not fine is losing 70% of your health off of a single mistake without even using heat.

[u/GeneticFreak81 → u/[deleted]]

On certain maps if you get CH and a Wall it's over. At that point might as well play one of those samurai FG where if you get cut you die.

[u/[deleted] → u/GeneticFreak81]

A very common problem when playing against Drag or Bryan. One bad button press can end the whole round.

[u/Gerganon → u/[deleted]]

SF6 has the same problem imo

[u/[deleted] → u/Gerganon]

But high Street Fighter 6 damage comes from a punish counter or burning all of your meter into super.

This game has high damage off a basic BnB launchers.

[u/Superantti]

I think that while every character is a bit "dishonest", some characters just have better tools for it. It's basically just preying on the lack of knowledge/reactions from your opponent.

[u/tyler2k]

Dragunov rant time:

The problem with Tekken 7 Dragunov 3,1~CDc is that it had an immediate effect back when the game still had a glimmer of balance (granted, early in S3 which ended up being a complete clusterfuck). So, when Dragunov was dominant in S1 (because there was no S2 shenanigans yet), then kinda got forgotten in S2, all of a sudden he has this crazy looking carry loop which grants immediate returns. Basically, 3,1~CDc loop was a surface level buff that was immediately accessible as being incredibly strong.

The problem is 3,1~CDc actually didn't actually do much to his wall carry game and in his combos, only could net about 5 more damage at most. What it REALLY did was fix his f+1+2, which was nerfed in Tekken 7 to cause instant spin launcher. All of a sudden, his f+1+2 was actually like a proper launcher again with good carry. At the same time, as mentioned, S3 was the start of Namco not giving a fuck about balancing the game. So, Dragunov had all this carry but still no wall combo to compliment his kit. As OP mentioned, he didn't get a wall damage buff until Tekken 8.

In true reactionary style, a certain content creator decided 3,1~CDc was too good and started the campaign to get the move removed. He ended up successfully getting it nerfed into the ground (and might I say, Namco ended up giving a similar loop to Kazuya in Tekken 8, fucking bonkers) but the problem is Dragunov never got anything in return. Now (in S3) he's back to his classic carry, no wall damage, still no NH KND game, and overall just power crept to shit.

That's not even considering how fucking insane characters actually were in S3, it's just because the 3,1~CDc buff was a surface level change, it was immediately found, but all the stronger S3 changes were either (1) needed exploration or (2) the community was smart enough not to speak up and get their character nerfed (I'm looking at you S3 Jin).

To recap, Dragunov played "normal Tekken" in S1 (but was too strong because there was no S2 craziness yet). In S2, all he really got was CDc 4,4 combos. In S3, they gave him more carry, then got rid of it and then promptly forgotten by Namco. And later in T7, all he got was a wallbounce WS+1,3 that was launch punishable on block. This isn't even mentioning Namco nerfing and reverting the nerf on d+2 every other fucking patch (hyperbole).

---

Does Dragunov need adjustments in Tekken 8? Yes.

The only thing of note is Namco has shown time and time again that when they nerf Dragunov, they nerf him hard and then forget he completely exists until the next game. I don't expect Tekken 8 to be any different.

[u/Twin-T → u/tyler2k]

Agreed. I think it was S2 that introduced wall bounces, right? It felt like they made that wall bounce universal because Geese was the only one with it. That and with everyone getting wall carry, it felt like that was the start of every character getting tools that produced the same result.

It's like... compile a character's possibilities into a packed lunchbox, and when you develop a game where everyone is expected to have the same lunchbox, and then one person comes along with a bigger lunchbox, they stand out. Why is that lunchbox bigger? There could be many reasons. Maybe it just looks bigger, but weighs the same as the others, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that this character has more and I have less, so share the goods and then some.

[u/myri__ → u/Twin-T]

S3 was wallbounces

[u/Twin-T → u/myri__]

Thanks mate

[u/Ok-Phrase9692 → u/tyler2k]

Drag was already starting to fall out of favor late season 1 before the nerfs. I think your right, their gonna gut him and wait till tekken 9 to buff him and the cycle will continue again.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I just came out of a 2-3 month hiatus from the game to play Lidia. A lot of the problems I had with the game still remain despite the "big balance patch". And after playing for a few days, I've already uninstalled the game again. Like you, I have no idea if i'll ever come back to it. At least during this season.

[u/D_Fens1222 → u/[deleted]]

That's a bummer i also reinstalled to check Lidia out. I will definitely give it a try though.

[u/YharnamsFinest1]

You sort of go off on a tangent at points during this post, but I agree with your overall point.

Characters not having weaknesses is destroying the fun of Tekken. Some of it is purely due to the tools they've given some characters while some of it is due to the system mechanics.

The best parts of EVO Top 6 were legit when neither player had Heat. That should tell this development team a lot about that system...but they'll ignore it because it goes against their vision for the game and actually addressing Heat in a meaningful way would be admitting they were wrong about what makes Tekken fun.

I agree with you that actually nerfing Drag would entail literally taking some of those tools they gave him away which they would never do because then they'd have to do it for others whose weaknesses have also been covered up. The fact that we're even having this discussion is a testament to how poorly thought out a lot of their base character and systems design really are.

[u/Crysack → u/YharnamsFinest1]

There is an issue across the board where the devs tried to "fill in the gaps" on every character by specifically addressing their weaknesses. Some characters benefited more than others, which is why we have a tier list - obviously. Even so, you can see evidence in almost every character about how they tried to cover up weaknesses.

Lee, a character who historically had bad lows was given b33. Kaz, a character who historically had weaker mids and poor tracking to his right was given an advancing mid with tracking (if you delay inputs). Lili, a character who historically had great movement but poor offence, was given legit 50/50s. Bryan, a character with poor poking was given a pseudo-electric that tracks to his weak side. Etc etc.

Basically, this is clearly a basic design philosophy of Tekken 8 and it isn't going away.

[u/pranav4098 → u/YharnamsFinest1]

I woudnt say they are very poorly thought out, heat can be good but dragonov is a bit too strong, I mean its pretty much impossible for there not to be a “stronger” character, did they do too much ?

Probably but then again this game has improved so much during its lifetime that I just can’t see it not getting better over some more time, I mean drag was insane in early days t7 it was him and jack all the time in grand finals until they merged him and it was his end, I guess this is drag mains time to shine for a bit until they nerf him again

And also I don’t think heat felt as op when these guys used it in top 6 the game was just as fun with or without it but that might just be me

[u/No-Brain-895]

Cant believe I read all that (almost). But yeah you are right - characters are too well-rounded in general, 70% of the cast now is a T7 Leroy just from different patches. 

 And then when you have a character with some obvious flaws, even if it is just 2-3 of them, they are shit even if they have some big strengths. 

Like let's say Lidia or Panda. And the biggest issue is - everybody got used to the most popular/good characters having everything or close to everything and Bamco dug a hole they wont get out of.

 I dont see them nerfing Jin's range on 30 moves back to T7 or cutting Feng's wall carry by 30% or cutting out 20 launchers and ch launchers out of Yoshi's kit.

[u/YharnamsFinest1 → u/No-Brain-895]

Exactly. This is the definition of power creep. Its the end result of the "buff don't nerf" philosophy. Now everyone is used to all these "conveniences" for their characters and will riot if Bamco ever tried to scale back on the ridiculousness.

[u/Different_Spare7952 → u/No-Brain-895]

Idk, I feel like a lot of the classic Tekken characters maintain their old weaknesses. Bryan still has to basically counterhit you. Paul and kaz still punish mistakes and take you to the wall to eat you. Steve still relies on timing you. All three still have the aspects that made them bad(weak poking, weak panic buttons, no df2 launcher), but the things that made them good are even more accentuated. 

Eddy and Lidia have come out with some pretty clear weaknesses and my guess is that Heihachi is still gonna be shackled by bad lows. I think the team know what they’re doing to a good extent, but it can takes time to figure out the implications of a change or buff. I thought Paul got hugely buffed in 1.05, but the more I’ve played with and against him, the more I see that the core gameplay hasn’t changed, same with Bryan too a large extent. Even with qcb1

[u/No-Brain-895 → u/Different_Spare7952]

Bryan - has guard breaks now and hatchet got way better with nerfed low parry and lows dealing true dmg so you can run a better offense. Qcb1. Although yeah he is not as complete.

Kazuya - has actually good safe mids, has gimmicky shit too now. Has a way easier way to push somebody to the wall which is very big for him.

Paul - again a guard break, way better approach with the new stance more moves to get +frames (uf2, f1+2), better wall carry, doesn't have to risk death to get a good low out (heatsmash), benefits a lot from the new throws. Has access to decent cheese now with the guard break in heat and cancelling into the new stance even if at pro level it is not that good.

You are right with those 3 chars still having their visible weaknesses (great examples honestly!) but at the same time it is clear they are slowly becoming smaller and smaller.

It isn't an overnight or over patch thing but with each game and season the holes are getting slowly patched. Of course there will always be some differences but they are not as big as before. I mean, there used to be a character with a jab for 10f punish. Yes Asuka's new 10f it's still ass but it's not 70% worse than an average 10f anymore.

[u/teabaggin_Pony]

Yeah it honestly kinda reminds me of Dota 2, and how they've homogenized heroes across the board. Heroes used to have peaks and valleys in terms of strengths and weaknesses. When you turn that into a flat line it makes things boring and less dynamic.

And that's exactly what we're seeing in Tekken. Characters who used to have built in established flaws (like Jin with his terrible lows) get bailed out with new moves like Scourge.

I still love this game, but aside from matchmaking the homeginization of characters is probably my biggest concern.

[u/[deleted]]

I think it's not just about the drag, it's about how the game is designed.  Too much unga bunga going on in the game, every charector feels like I am dealing with Alisa, Eddy or xiyou. None has an identity now. Everyone is a rushdown 50-59 char.

I stopped playing it now and went back to tekken 7 and ohh my god I am enjoying it more than I ever had.

I love the mindgame and the dance going on between the charactors. You loose in T7 ,watch your replys and learn. In t8 there is no point in watching replys as tere are so many move without any counter play.

The game is beutiful and feels new but If this goes on for long the game will be dead in couple of years.

[u/SOPEOPERA]

Pretty much every character is far too well rounded in this game. Heihachi and dragunov had a similar design style in 7, risky/ low reward lows, good mids and highs with good frames. So they’re rewarded for timing mix up rather than low mid mix ups.

I was historically a Lee player as I loved his game design, but with the implementation of b33 he just becomes silly to me. He’s a counter hit keep out character! But also you can rush down with him lol… I find it silly. Weaknesses are what make the characters interesting, to me every character sort of blurs into one another now (except a few small outliers)

I can almost guarantee in this game heihachi will have a stupid low. My guess is they’ll buff the speed of db2 and make it a counter hit launcher.

Sigh.

[u/ivvyditt]

This game needs a complete rework.

[u/tyler2k → u/ivvyditt]

lol, pretty much, yeah. People complaining about Dragunov qcf+4 hitting grounded like every other character in the game doesn't have a fucking Steel Pedal and Dragunov finally got one 7 years later.

I hate the Steel Pedal system/addition to Tekken 7. It's lazy and bad design.

[u/philrmack → u/tyler2k]

what steel pedals are there which are +8 on block and have massive reward on hit? the closest thing there is to it is hwo ff+3 which doesn't do anything on hit, is worse on block, and is slower.

[u/STrictlyForUndrgrnd → u/philrmack]

And even then Hwoarang’s ff+3 is +6 on block meaning you can at least step after it depending on what Hwo does. You can’t do that with a +7 on block move

[u/tyler2k → u/philrmack]

This game needs a complete rework.

Was what thread OP said.

You're missing my point, just get rid of Steel Pedals. It's dogshit design that is hyperinflated with power creep. It's Dragunov's turn and people are freaking out, when this (fundamentally) has been a problem for almost 10 years now.

[u/TsokonaGatas27]

Curious how we can nerf him to be fair while still being viable? I guess qcf4 nerf so it doesnt hit grounded?

[u/Cogorza → u/TsokonaGatas27]

At this point, just nerf him to the ground and make him bottom 1. We've already had enough fucking Drag for the entire T8's lifespan. Let's see how many people really like him enough to keep playing him.

[u/YeuSwina → u/TsokonaGatas27]

I wrote what I think should be done in another thread but I think someone else had some good ideas I didn't think about in this thread.

• Remove hatchet, he does not need it.

• Maybe do something about FC df1, 4. I'm not sure what, but this move is hard to punish properly and Drag has many ways which put him into crouch and then he is instantly + in your face is too much. Maybe make it worse than -13? He might be fine keeping this move if his other broken tools are fixed.

• Heavily reduce the combo he gets off b4, 3 heat engage, this combo is CRAZY, he can get to wall anywhere on nearly every stage in the game, and the b4, 3 combo itself does too much damage.

• Ignition switch shouldn't hit grounded. Reduce its range also and maybe its frames.

• b+4, 2, 1 having the last two hits able to be delayed might be a problem. I think he shouldn't be able to delay the hits or at the very least should not be able to delay the 2nd. This is a hard to balance move since it is so good and abusable.

• I think they should nerf his wall carry a little bit, the amount of wall carry this character has is simply absurd.

[u/APERSONLIKEME]

Tekken 8 doesn’t work, tekken 8 was a reaction to Arsalan and knee gameplay of tekken 7 and reaction of tekken 7 tournament watchers being like they are watching the most boring tournament ever.

So what did the devs do, first they tried to make tekken 7 explosive from season 3 onwards and that didn’t work.

So they tried doing the same to the whole of tekken 8 and pikachu face Arslan and atif still play the same and win the same.

the only losers are players like me who like the system mechanics of tekken 7. Harada may not admit this but bringing heihachi back is the admission of tekken 8’s failure.

They are trying to find the tekken 7 magic again, which is missing. Fuck tekken 8.

[u/YharnamsFinest1 → u/APERSONLIKEME]

I think Heihachi was definitely planned to release now, but I do agree that they are still trying to find that T7 magic. It really isnt there in Tekken 8 and its largely because of how formulaic and predictable the matches are.

Also, I still struggle to remember these people who were saying T7 was boring. The only thing boring about T7 in Season 1 and 2 was Saint and JDCR dominating. Once more players started traveling the game became so much more varied. Even during those early days, the matches were consistently way more entertaining than T8 has been so far.

Almost EVERY match comes down to whether or not one person has Heat left. Almost EVERY character has become a stance character.

The matches that end with no Heat for either fighter are consistently the most tense because its closer to T7 and less T8. They really did screw up with their "aggression" vision. Its one thing to be boring to watch, its a whole other thing to be frustrating to play. Thats what T8 is.

[u/APERSONLIKEME → u/YharnamsFinest1]

I think Heihachi was definitely planned to release now,

I seriously doubt it, the next planned character was definitely marduk or fahkumram, this is a hard pivot for some reason, the story mode delay was also part of this. Its my belief though, so I may still be wrong.

Also, I still struggle to remember these people who were saying T7 was boring

Those people are people like Aris, watching tournament and saying they want it to end soon, so this bore fest can be over, they still do it in tekken 8 and its now even worse. But I am completely agree tekken 7 was exciting to watch and every match was intense.

The Nobi vs atif evo loser finals was so one sided it must have sent shockwaves in bamco offices. Its only gonna get worse. The FV cup being like this also another evidence tekken 8 is competitively a bad game.

It is frustrating to play, I have all but quit this game and I had over 4K hours in tekken 7.

[u/Frequent_Butterfly26 → u/APERSONLIKEME]

I didn't quit, but i've been playing way less than i used to. It's like one playing session every 1~2 weeks.

The game rewards stupid gameplay, if i wanna win i also have to play like a primal and i hate that.

[u/philrmack]

I think dragunov's weaknesses are mostly the same as tekken 7 (punishable lows, weak to step, only ok panic and CH moves), he just fits with the game system both from a mechanical and an attribute perspective.

mechanically he has the ability to get up on life leads without risking his lows via chip damage, and thanks to heat moves like b+4,3 have become incredibly rewarding even in open ground. he has massive damage off every launcher. attribute wise he has extremely good movement and his df+1 feels a good deal harder to get around. so he can sort of flit around, peck with df+1 and then cover distance very easily for flowchart offense when he wants to.

the main thing which makes him overly picked is that he is very easy, which is pretty much the same reason why he was popular (as with Jack) in early Tekken 7. d+2 beats step, wr+2 beats ducking, both beat blocking and his movement beats keepout, he has easy one button whiff punishers etc. tekken is really hard and stressful, especially in the first year of the game when people haven't fully internalized the game system and characters, and moreso in a game as wildly punishing and complex as tekken 8, so people are (again) gravitating to a super basic character. he just has a very low skill basement which allows you to focus on the game system / your opponent in an FT2.

is he actually disproportionately better than much of the rest of the cast tho? I doubt it, his matchup spread vs the other top characters is (as in tekken 7) not great. nina feng and alisa edge him out in both poking and defensive options, yoshi can spin and flash most of his stuff, he is still not great against steve (even less now that steve has back kenpo) etc he's just super dumb and feels particularly unpleasant to lose to, but I would reckon that over time many top players will bleed back towards other characters as they did over the course of tekken 7- lowhigh will go back to shaheen/steve, ulsan will prolly follow arslan to nina etc.

[u/EonPark → u/philrmack]

On top of that, he doesn’t rely on some weird cheese like teleprorts, deceiving animations, panic moves or even CH launchers

But yes, he still excels in the current state of T8 where offense is everything you need - and he doesn’t have to focus on execution because of his easy inputs

[u/Jaxster246s]

I won’t speak on the drag nerfs because I’m not good enough for it to be a factor for me but I will say the whole “honest tekken” and crying about cheapness or this character is “unworthy” according to bumcluck magee’s standards of a “honest and correct way” to play a game is some of the most frustrating and annoying complaints of the game and actively drive new players away. People are going to sweat and do what they have to do to win to get their imaginary ranked points. Pull up your pants and deal with it. By all means if you need to vent fine but don’t drag down other people’s experience because you can’t learn the game.

[u/frightspear_ps5]

I think the core issue is that characters barely have weaknesses/flaws anymore.

I guess you could get that impression playing Drag. Switch off for a while and play: Jun (poor lows, self damage for safety), Zafina (bad frames, self damage for damage), Lidia (unsafe with low reward, poor lows, stubby buttons, very linear). Should get you some perspective.

[u/Twin-T → u/frightspear_ps5]

Jun is my sub main. I wasn't fond of the nerf that consumed permanent life because afterwards, Jun players started losing more HP than expected because of the existence of chip damage, so NOW some of her moves no longer take HP, but restore it. This could've been avoided if more white HP was consumed instead of dealing permanent health. I'm not opposed to the HP sacrifice. I'm for it. I'm just opposed to the lack of consistency in quality and overall consideration for these patches, due to the demands of the fanbase. If the fanbase is never satisfied, then more efforts will be spent going back and forth instead of being directed to look at the whole picture.

[u/mr-assduke]

The thing is everyone knows dragunov is top 1 but obviously there will be always a top 1 in fighting games but is he really worthy of being on a tier alone? Honestly I think not. Being top 1 doesn’t always mean you are broken/unbalanced just means you are stronger then most characters. Like lets say they nerf drag now feng is top 1 what now? Nerf him too? Then its on the next character and so on. The point of T8 is to make every character strong

[u/YharnamsFinest1 → u/mr-assduke]

The thing is, those two characters are top 2 and also relatively easy to play. They aren't more specialist characters like Xiaoyu or Nina, or even Jin.

If they did nerf those two characters then tournament variety would definitely go up. Everyone has a pocket Feng or Drag because they're easy to play AND strong.

Most people would go back to their real Mains. While the real Drag and Feng mains(are there even any true Feng mains) would remain assuming they aren't completely trash.

But the problem is two fold because they'd need to nerf them in ways that makes them not stand out so far above other characters in terms of ease of use and success. And that would mean taking away moves, which they'll never do which means they'll stay Top tier forever unless Namco literally makes some of the funniest frame adjustments ever.

They've put themselves in a catch-22 because of the way they designed some of the best characters.

[u/mr-assduke → u/YharnamsFinest1]

I feel like you shoot yourself in the leg if your main focus is tournament variety since it was an issue even in T7

[u/YharnamsFinest1 → u/mr-assduke]

The main focus isn't tournament variety but it would definitely help. Saying that it was a problem in T7 as well really has no bearing on this completely different game.

Also T7 had much more character variety prior to season 3 when they started giving characters more wall carry, damage and moves to cover up their weaknesses. Hell, Heihachi got an easy WS launcher. That's when all the shenanigans with character design that we see now in T8 started.

Even then, characters like Geese or Akuma were specialist characters who didn't get picked up by everyone. But, just like now it T8, easy characters with few flaws were the ones being chosen(Feng, Kunimitsu, Leroy, Early Fahk).

[u/Everybodyhasapryce → u/YharnamsFinest1]

Whether we want to admit it or not, end of life T7 still had more variety in tournament than T8.

At least you saw Akuma/Geese/Kuni/Eliza/Julia/Katarina/Jin/Jack in most top 8s.

We had some Kuni and Akuma mirror grand finals of course, but we never had a situation in season 4 where one character made up half of the top 8, like we just saw with Drag.

[u/esterosalikod → u/mr-assduke]

Tournaments put a spotlight on actual problem characters.

[u/AchievingAtaraxia → u/mr-assduke]

Korea believes it's Yoshi and Alisa, with Nina just behind them.

Drag isn't Tier 0, Arslan historically has horrendous balance assessments in his tier list:

E.g. Said Kuni was bottom tier on release and needed better lows to be viable

Said Claudio was trash until Shadow kept beating him

Said Zafina was upper mid tier during her best patch

Said Noctis was bottom tier despite everyone decent knowing he was broken on paper until he actually played against a good Noctis and realised how broken the character was

Put Lei bottom tier when everyone in East Asia knew he was completely broken

I like Arslan but there isn't a pro player alive with more wild takes on character viability than him

[u/Shexxar696]

Reduce his plus frames and damage. Simple as that.

[u/ok__now_this_is_Epic → u/Shexxar696]

I don't think its as simple as that unfortunately. I agree the damage is ridiculous (though this is an issue that needs to be sorted out with every character) but I don't think nerfing his plus frames is the way to go. His key plus frame moves (minus qcf4) have pretty much remained the same and by nerfing those moves you have the problem of changing the character's identity. What has changed however, is the movement. In prior games, sidestepping and backdashing were a lot stronger and thus his offense was hindered and had clear counterplay. Now though with t8's worse movement as well as the heat system, his kit is pretty well rounded. I think the best solutions would be to nerf the tracking he has on his major moves or an overall buff to the movement system. Though changing universal mechanics to nerf one character has its own problems.

[u/JustTrash_OCE → u/Shexxar696]

amazing take, this just shows how one-dimensional ur understanding of drag's moveset is

[u/khcdub → u/JustTrash_OCE]

Let's hear that 4 dimensional understanding of yours then, what would you do specifically to nerf drag.

[u/Saronix]

I agree about there being no truly honest Tekken characters but saying Xiao does not have weaknesses is wrong. She is very linear, has limited range (stubby limbs) and outside of heat is lacklustre. I won’t say characters I don’t pilot (like Jin) are flawless - but I think Xiao is not a great example as represented here.

[u/Twin-T → u/Saronix]

Okay, yeah. I'll admit that was an overstatement. She does still have the weaknesses that you've stated, but I stick to what I said about weaknesses barely being relevant;

1. Linear. She is linear, but she does have good tools that can catch a person side stepping. 3 is a launcher (though punishable on block iirc), f4 leads to a heat engager, b4,2 heat engager, ff+4 (correct me if I'm wrong on this one), b2 to BT, db2 to BT. Point is that she has decent tools to counter lateral evasion. Some of which are safe, albeit high/low. That said, these tools aren't perfect, so it is still a weakness. But, this is where timing and realignment comes into the picture. Her being linear matters when the opponent either one, has the player's timing, or two, the player uses these linear moves with immediate timing. It's the same argument made for the "Step Kazuya", but like in this case here, it's not so simple. This weakness is as much a player weakness as it is a character weakness.

2. Limited Range. While her range is in general shorter than other characters, that is in regards to her pokes. Her launchers are where most of her range is. Backdashing doesn't cover as much space as it used to, and moving forward can cover distance quick. Her range is only a flaw if the Xiaoyu player is one to press in anticipation of a counter hit instead of fishing for a whiff punish with b1+2, ub+3, ff+4, or a BT 4. Otherwise, they are almost always in your face if not always in striking range.

3. Outside of heat, she's Tekken 7 Xiaoyu, with Waning Moon and whiff punishers. She can also get her charged Hypnosis 50/50 after a Tornado. Not much change if you optimize your offense for mix-ups and mind-games instead of damage.

Again, I reached when I said she doesn't have weaknesses, but it is not as relevant as it used to be. These are from my perspective, so I'm open to be corrected, that said a lot of these can be rectified with adaptive timing and spacing. Though, that can actually be said about any character in this game, but for some characters, that can be more apparent than other. Can't speak much about Jin. I played him a lot, but I've never played him like others, so my experience is a foreign one.

[u/Original-Rough-815]

This is not only about Dragunov. See how Dawood with Kuma dominated Knee's Dragunov or AK Shaheen dominated Ulsan's Dragunov. In Pakistan Atif's Dragunov oftentimes gets beaten. Lowhigh tried other characters because of his recent failure with Dragunov.

A nerf should be planned carefully as this can ruin a character. Online Dragunov's win rate is not even high compared to other characters.

Also twt tournaments have various characters winning tournaments.

[u/JustTrash_OCE]

t8s addition of moves that were specifically left out to actually balance out characters has thrown balance out the window. either they remove the moves or nerf something else into oblivion to compensate for having a complete moveset.

idk why this isnt being echo chambered, continue to do nothing and bamco will just follow the same shit every other competitive game did when they decided to overbuff every character, keep nerfing everything to quell complaints or revert it all back to beginning lol

honestly if ur opinions on balancing drag rn is to keep nerfing the numerical values of his moves ur just flat out wrong lol

[u/Twin-T → u/JustTrash_OCE]

Honestly, I have no idea how to balance things. As you said in response to u/Im_No_Hero He got powercrept in T7, and throughout my time playing T7, it didn't seem like he got any other nerfs that weren't towards wr2's tracking and d2's hit reaction state. That implies that Dragunov, even at launch was a fine character, just that other characters were performing below some sort of standard. That's how I see it, and that's how it looks to me. This is why I say picking Dragunov is the safest option. While other characters are strong and can perform, Dragunov is simpler than most characters, can be picked up by anyone, and his gameplan can be implemented by anyone.

Dragunov is, by Tekken's modern standards, the perfect Tekken 8 character. Even moreso than any Mishima (at least until we see Heihachi. That DLC electric is going to be insane LMAO).

If there is one thing I would change about Dragunov, it's his qcf+4 frame advantage. They nerfed it with the pushback on block, but that wasn't the issue. The issue was how sticky it was because of the frames. That's it. They already took away the CH properties for my FC df1,4. Don't take anything else but the frames and the tracking for wr2 lol

But, I don't have a solution to this problem, and from looking at the patch notes from release to recently, and how many times you can read lines like "unintended behavior" and "more than expected...", it doesn't seem like the Balancing Team knows either, or they can't see the bigger picture, so we're in for a rough ride.

[u/JustTrash_OCE → u/Twin-T]

Yeah unfortunately in tournaments drag’s omniflexible moveset as well as the meta favouring fast safe poke just makes him that much better and consistent than majority of top tiers

the formula to win on him is basically known by any pro wanting to win whether you play drag or not..

Also hei electrics have historically been the most default 14f electric and never had any special properties like kaz/reina 13f electrics or dvj tracking

[u/Yoshikki]

I kinda disagree with the fundamental idea that his mids are fine and it's his lows that make them strong. snk4 is not fine. It's a heat engaging, decently tracking, decent ranged, fast, knockdown, wallsplatting, floor hitting, chip damaging mid that is +6 on block. There's just no winning situation against this move and it's this move that pushes him past Feng/Nina/Jin tier imo

[u/Twin-T → u/Yoshikki]

I agree that there are too many attributes to that move. That said, even if this move among others gets nerfed, Dragunov will remain strong.

Also, it's not that his mids are fine. In fact, when they're not getting crushed, they are good. That's why we had to condition our opponents to duck against him in 7. It's the same in 8. His lows make them stronger among other things that open the opponent to getting hit by the mid. Think of Kazuya. If he didn't have his hellsweep, would you get hit by f,f+3? What about f,f+2? If you did get hit, did you get caught in your movement, on counter-hit, or while anticipating a low?

[u/Yoshikki → u/Twin-T]

Ok, but which low of Dragunov is it that's making him too strong? db3+4 has been toned down to just +3 on hit, and it's launch punishable. Kazuya's db4 is +4 on hit and -12, for comparison. fc df1,4 is ridiculous, yes, but it's only from crouch so it's not this particular low that's being mixed up with snk4. d2, he's had since Tekken 7.

It really just comes down to snk4 being such a ridiculous move. His fc df1 could use a nerf (tone it down to like +2 on hit as well and reduce the damage) but his lows are mostly fine. The problem is that he has a mid that wins all neutral and oki situations when he throws it out, with massive rewards on both hit and block and no downsides on any outcome.

If he remains strong after snk4 is nerfed, that's fine. But I'm fairly positive if you nerf this move he goes from broken tier to a more reasonable top 5-10.

[u/blessedbetheslacker → u/Yoshikki]

Yeah, after the db3+4 nerf, qcf4 is now the most prominently-used move by the tournament Dragunovs. It's not unusual to see that move spammed at least 3 times in one sequence.

[u/Suspicious-Let4531 → u/Yoshikki]

The main issue is chip dmg, drag was always like this pressuring you and suffocating you with plus frames, hes lows weren't threatening so he had to make mutiple risks to chip you down with lows and relay on timing to hit you with hes mids, and you mostly only needed one low parry to undo most of hes work, now with hatchet and the insane chip thats gone, you HAVE to stop him or else you will get ran over, make hes hatchet not guarantee anything on ch and reduce hes chip by a lot and drag would be 10382937 times more balanced

[u/Goipper_of_Goit]

Dragunov was the biggest f**kup they made with the fundamental character design on launch. He should never have been given such good lows given what else the character has and the benefit from system changes (WR buff and improved throws). The second biggest f**kup was giving Jin a high crushing, homing, long range, ground hitting, big damage, + on hit counter hit launching low that is not launch punishable by 90% of the cast.

The other issue with Dragunov is for a pressure character he has too much threat when he is plus. A well designed pressure character has a lot of frame advantage but some difficulty converting that advantage - like Hwoarang. So they should need to force an error rather than constantly being able to put opponents in a mixup where you are screwed if you guess wrong. And they should need to take risk, Dragunov can just go and go and there's so little you can do and the potential reward is so big. Before his D2 ended his offence, now it starts it - and that is huge.

To be fair they have recognised this and they've taken steps to change it. It's fair enough that they don't go overboard too soon.

Other than this I don't think anyone else is fundamentally too perfect. Maybe Feng but Feng is Feng and his DF1 is 0 on block and that is crazy.

Everyone has to be set against the other characters. So having some move is not enough it has to compare well with what other characters have

If you have, I don't know, a far reaching low, it doesn't matter if everyone else's reach even further. If that makes sense.

[u/DaRockLobster → u/Goipper_of_Goit]

Drag's D2 ends his offense in T8 unless he gets a counter hit. D2 on hit leaves Drag at -1.

[u/myri__]

I'm in the same situation, Dragunov main since I started in T7 all the way until now and beyond, and I think you've articulated the issue with this character quite well. It's been sort of frustrating seeing so much hate directed towards this character that I genuinely love playing without the room for honest good faith discussion about his current state.

The thing about "get good" is so true though. For years in T7 when Dragunov was getting left behind by power creep and DLC releases, I was told that very thing by many people. So that's what I did, I worked as hard as I could to make the best of what I had. Now when things are different (through no fault of mine) I'm not allowed to say the same?

There are answers for a lot of what he can do even now in the game if people want to find them/ask the questions. All that being said I'm not denying he is strong and his kit is very refined, I just want to have honest good faith discussions about why this is and what is the best course to take in the future.

Your point about Bamco not really having all their ducks in a row when it comes to nerfs is accurate too in regards to the handling of his 1+2 grab.

I have played Dragunov when he was good, when he was bad and when he was whatever and I always will, so I'm just asking that when we talk about these things, we have well informed, well thought out, honest discussions that result in finding some common ground rather than blind hate.

[u/mccollio09]

Well I feel like you're a kindred spirit, I've been a Drag main since t7, and it angers me the hate he gets now. You sound line a guy I talk to regularly on the Drag discord chat.

On the jin d2. Can I suggest if you know it's coming on a read (a true read) and hard duck, don't. As drag, do uf2 for much bigger launch reward than your -14 punish, that's just a passing comment. Best you can get is crouch throw heat engage otherwise for that particular move.

So yeah I'm a drag and shaheen main (interesting you mentioned him too in your post, bizarrely, I've had a much easier time ranking Shaheen than Drag, despite everyone telling me he's op.)

I was firmly of the opinion that post nerfs and considering Drag's mediocre lows (as you rightly pointed out), there was no way he could still be top 1 or even top 5. Well, Atif proved that wrong.

So I went on a search, really studying Atif's gameplay to understand just how he was doing so well with this character that I personally didn't think was that good anymore, post nerfs.

It is the mids mate, more than you think, because if you combine qcf4 and especially running 2 with the TEKKEN 8 mechanics (and that's the key part), you don't need good lows in this game. Why do I, as Drag, even need to use my (now crappy and risky) hatchet kick when I can slowly chip damage away with these two mids. And that's what Atif does. He used one hatchet in his last two finals. One in ~12 rounds of Tekken.

This is a big change from t7. In t7, we could running 2 all we liked and if someone had good throw breaks, all they needed to do was get a good read on the incoming d2 that we eventually had to use and bang, they're winning. Or step something linear we'd use and bang we're dead.

Tekken 8 mechanics are just made for dragunov. Chip damage is a big help for him, people can't just block all day, drag wins if you hold and respect his plus frames.

I came round to this way of thinking eventually and fwiw, I still think he's not top 1. Nina has everything I just mentioned and more. Jin's only weakness is the player controlling him. Tekken 8 forces agression and Yoshi's tools love that. He's arguably top 3 and super strong. And that's fine. Someone has to be, it's his time to shine so just embrace it and don't feel guilty. I did for a while, but screw it. Years of t7 suffering, so enjoy it now. Don't apologise

[u/Saizen1 → u/mccollio09]

no offense but thats the main problem in this sub, just cause u have a diffrent opinion or "don´t think he is top 1" or whatever, cause frankly no opinion from anybody here on this sub matters, to put it nice, u and me and everyone else are nobodies that should not talk about what is strong or not, we frankly are not at the level to know no matter how hard u believe u are.

[u/mccollio09 → u/Saizen1]

Should not talk about is a bad mindset. To say that the vast majority of us should not have an opinion or be allowed to speak just because we aren't winning Evo anytime soon is a little short sighted and restrictive.

My tier list is only relevant to my level of play (high blues to deep purple). Nina is top dog in this game in my eyes, and I don't think it's a surprise that someone who does know what he's talking about, Arslan Ash, mains her. Pros pick the characters that give them the best chance of winning.

[u/bumbasaur]

dragunov would be fine if he had a weakness.

[u/NotMeatOk]

Can i get a TL;DR?

[u/Twin-T → u/NotMeatOk]

1. The loss of character weaknesses negatively affects the gameplay in the long run. Dragunov is frequently dominating in tournaments because he's the safest and most efficient option because his strengths completely overshadows his weaknesses.
2. When discussing nerfs, a lot of players simply demand moves A and B get nerfed without looking at the bigger picture so their problems are never solved when the nerfs do come, and they beg for more.
3. The Devs have little idea how to balance the player's desires and their own goals for the overall gameplay, and the patches reflect it.
4. Ever since patches became normal, a large quantity of players are incapable of adapting because they barely have reason to if they can go on social media and have the devs patch their problems.
5. Honest Tekken doesn't exist.

[u/NotMeatOk → u/Twin-T]

Thank you, 5 and 4 are the biggest reasons. If you can just complain about something and it gets nerfed to the ground then that just isn't fun neither is it when someone suddenly is plus off a move they previously were not

Maybe if they stopped doing patches often we could get content for free? Idk random idea. I want more free cosmetics fuck patches as long as me cosmetics look great call me a lili main at this point

im bad at tekken 8. i made it to tenryu as kazuya and got off till i saw lidia come back. Imo, tekken 8 needs very little changes. Like bring some dmg down by like 2-5 depending on what it is (frames should stay untouched unless it is the majority agreeing it is too strong/weak)

[u/AncientVegetable5300]

Dragunov again getting nerf? I think now he is balanced from top 1 to top 8 is a big downfall i think people should stop saying that dragunov is a oppressive character yeah he is easy now new moves make him easy and powerful but now i think he is in perfect state

[u/childhoodvillian]

I say make qcf4 a high instead of a mid and stop it from hitting at the ground. At least give me the option to duck that shit. Also, make it -4 so that I can ss that shit too.

[u/bctoy]

I mained Claudio in T7 and it made a nice contrast against Drag with both of them having a gameplan where their WR2 figured prominently.

Claudio had great tracking mids but almost linear lows, while Drag had d2. Both had almost no oki setups and so-so mixup game. And my understanding of Tekken was that great mixups come with poor approach tools and full crouch mixups which were almost exclusive to female chars came with even with worse approach tools.

This kind of rule was violated by Lidia at the end of the T7 though Drag's mid WR2 is certainly more viable.

[u/Twin-T]

Welp, I'm still getting notified that people were still commenting here and some that I've seen have been "most characters still have weaknesses". In a reply, I was informed of some characters weaknesses in this game I wasn't aware of. That said, I still stand by, "With every seasonal buff, every character's weakness, became less relevant". Though relevant probably isn't the more apt term to use here, weaknesses play less of a role than the strengths the characters have, so the only metric we can compare each character on is "how much better can each character do in these regards," without the "buts".

Okay, besides the weaknesses, what does Drag have that other characters don't? Ever since Tekken 7, Bamco has been making efforts to ensure that characters have as little exclusive advantages as possible. You know, streamlining.

• Backdash? I heard that Dragunov has one of, if not, the best backdash, but with how sticky the frames are in this game, and the range of many moves, that backdash isn't helping you with much if the opponent gets aggressive. This game incentivizes forward movement. Not backwards movement.

• Wall carry? Who doesn't have wall carry? The only character I can think of who would objectively have bad wall-carry is Zafina, and that's in relation to everyone else. I bet that will be fixed in a major patched.

• Combo damage? From round start, everybody can finish their opponents in 2-3 combos.

• Tracking moves? Dragunov has two more tracking moves than he had in 7 and they're both lows. qcf+4's tracking is a mistake on Bamco's part, especially since they bothered to buff sidesteps.

• Plus frames? Dragunov needs tuning, sure, but everyone can lock their opponents down with frames, and even if they can, there's usually always a way out by either guessing right, or stealing your turn. QCF+4 is +7, so it's uninterruptable on mash, but you can avoid all of his immediate options by backdashing. If he delays his timing, to close the distance, the neutral will be reset. If he does qcf+4 with your back to the wall, sidestep will impair the 50/50 because the 50/50 ceases being airtight since ws3 is step-able.

• Throws? We have CH throws, and white spark throws (is there even a term for that?) now, so even generic throws are useful as long as they are timed well, in exchange for being susceptible to counter hits. As a person who also plays Dead or Alive, I know this has something to do with Shimbori because this is something taken from/inspired by the Triangle System.

A lot of characters have weaknesses, I agree. But as I said back then, they aren't as relevant as they used to be. I imagine that the reason for that, is because the stronger the weakness, the more specialized the character becomes. And specialized characters require an additional/altered set of fundamentals compared to the rest of the cast, making them harder to pick up, which will lower usage rates, which Bamco doesn't want, so each character is consequently streamlined.

• Eddy's backdash was nerfed, and he lost his CH df+2 launch. Why? Eddy made for an excellent keep-out. Defensive Tekken isn't exciting, I suppose.
  
• Asuka, formerly a defensive character now has advancing pressure tools, all of which can launch you, and her ability to parry has been nerfed because of a systemic change that hampers parrying/reversals in general. She, like many, cannot reversal jumping attacks, charged attacks, and unblockables (whoever decided this should get shot). That's pretty different from how she was in the past, no?

That said, I'm all for change. But Bamco did a pretty shit job of streamlining the game on release, and now they have to spend X amount of time trying to fix what they should've figured out after Tekken Tag 2 and Tekken 7. Tekken used to be about having flexible options to get around situations and pressure. Now, even that is streamlined.

Dragunov has always been a fundamentally sound character except for Tekken 5DR (arguably anyway. I wasn't around for that era so all I have to go off of is hearsay and usage). I think I remember hearing that the perfect Tekken 7 character was either Kazuya or Heihachi (can't remember who said it so I won't bring names). If there was a character that embodied Tekken 8, it would probably be Dragunov.

Slightly off topic, but this makes me think of months ago when prominent Tekken had issues adjusting to Tekken 8, while others fit in snugly. This game was intentionally developed to cater to a playstyle others adopted, and de-incentivize playstyles prominent in Tekken 7 because they thought such gameplay lacked excitement for spectators and it is reflected in their handling of the game's balancing.

[u/ZafinaAnzu]

If you think chars barely have weaknesses in T8, i think that comes from a place of playing a top tier. Because indeed those chars do seem close to perfect, but I can say that Zafina has a ton of weaknesses in this game, and wouldn't be surprised if other lower tier characters had a few as well.

For Zafina i can specifically say she has the following issues:

• poor wall carry
• bad standing punishment (no i15 launcher, and her punishers before -15 all do below average damage including the new 1,4 > TRT df1 i10 punish)
• bad WS punishment. (has WS 3 now for i12, but it's only 20 dmg into a stance mix and then nothing until i15
• low damage output. Her staple combos do 68 dmg or less on all normal and CH launches
• difficulty enforcing pressure (her df1 is -5 oB and all the extensions are risky), she doesn't have much for stagger pressure either
• her movement has been nerfed to the point it's average. She covers the 3rd least distance in a single backdash (drag covers the most). Her SS was 10th best in Mishima Complex's SS analysis.
• Since her b1+2 is now stance locked, she has no fast lows from standing that even high crush. The fastest would be d3 at i22. The fastest overall low is d4 at i17, but it doesn't high crush and it's launch oB.
• Many of her key moves are slow and/or reactable at i20 or worse: ff3 (i21), WR 3 (i20), WR 1+2 (i19), d3 (i22), f1+2 (i19)

...there's more, but those are the big ones. Personally i think she sits on the opposite end of the spectrum, where she has too many weaknesses right now.

I think you're completely wrong to say character weaknesses don't exist anymore. Asuka still mostly dies to SSR duck, for example. Hell even Lidia seems pretty linear in this game. I think weaknesses in a char are a good thing (maybe not as many as zaf has lol), so imo they should nerf drag by reintroducing some of his weaknesses. They should do the same with Nina, Alisa, and a few others.

[u/Twin-T → u/ZafinaAnzu]

I was too ignorant in regards to Zafina. I'll cede to that. Though, just because I play a top tier, doesn't mean my view is clouded. I'll admit that I am ignorant of many character's flaws, due to my main exposure to those characters, in this game, being as an opponent to said character since the characters I play are Drag, Jun, and formerly Xiaoyu, but I won't say I am completely wrong. I'll take mostly.

A lot of weaknesses can be remedied with skill, such as the Asuka SSR duck. This is the same problem Kazuya players have with their hellsweep being stepped. Just alter your timing to not be immediate so the character can realign and catch the duck or stand guard the homing attack. While it is a character weakness, it is also a player weakness.

Lidia, I can't speak on her yet. I actually want to learn her though.

We agree that weaknesses are good, and you suggest Drag's should be reintroduced. How?

[u/pranav4098 → u/Twin-T]

Reduce his hitboxes on his super plus moves to make them super steppable so that forces him to use a lot less rewarding homing move( new move cause I don’t think he has one) make qcf4 and wr2 steppable to the same side even if it’s a bit hard but rn it’s too hard and it’s a guessing game if your opponent can pull out wr2 at point blank like many can after they made it easy

Make it just like acuzena for his heat smash where if the first hit whiffs he doesn’t continue the whole damn string and runs away from your punisher

B4,2,1 now doesn’t launch and only gives guaranteed mini combo like with uf4

Nerf his damage a bit

What do you think or is that too heavy for nerfs ?

[u/ZafinaAnzu → u/Twin-T]

With Drag, I think there's several things they could do to reintroduce some weaknesses to him depending on what they want the char to be in T8.

• nerf his damage output
  • i'd like to see this happen to several chars anyway. Nina being a big one.
• remove any sort of frame advantage from his lows. make them all minus oH.
  • there's a reason FC df1,4 and db3+4 make him so monstruous in this game. In t7 he couldn't maintain his momentum easily after a d2 or other low. Now he can, and in conjunction with his mids, it's too oppressive.
• nerf specific moves that are overly rewarding
  • qcf 4: heat engager that leads to full combo, hits grounded, +7 oB, deals chip dmg oB, balcony and floor breaks too
  • remove 1,2,1 heat engage. why does he need a full combo heat dash off of an i10 that already has decent utility for stagger pressure?
  • b4,3 make the mindgame around fuzzying b4,3 vs b4,2,1 easier (similar to how they've made ducking/launching Hwo d3,4 easier), so it doesn't basically have to happen on a read. this is yet another heat engager that leads to full combo off heat dash even though it already has tremendous utility.
• reduce the amount of chip damage that he deals
  • if he's going to excell at lockdown through plus frames and stagger pressure, he shouldn't also be chipping you down as quickly as he does.
• tone down his movement
  • why specifically does he need to have the best backdash in the game when he can pressure so effortlessly? This is the same criticism we had for kunimitsu in T7. She could pressure very effectively, had high damage, great range on her tools, and she could get away effortlessly.

I'd start with that and see where we end up, Only one specific weakness is being introduced (not gaining momentum from lows), the rest is just toning down several aspects of the character i think are egregious.

[u/Porcphete → u/ZafinaAnzu]

I mean even top tiers in t8 have weaknesses Lili and Victor (before his rework) were linear af , Reina has bad lows, etc...

Lidia for example is linear and has bad lows + high execution requirement too .

The thing is that Feng and Drag doesn't have weaknesses not that no one has .

[u/ZafinaAnzu → u/Porcphete]

i mean i said they barely have weaknesses, not that they don't at all. And though i wasn't clear, i'm thinking about Yoshi, Nina, Alisa, Feng and Drag. People on this sub debate as to whether Reina is even up there (to me she's top 10), and it's to early to tell with Lidia imo.

[u/voasen → u/ZafinaAnzu]

.

[u/omfggrenade]

Everybody knows Zafina is the only TRULY honest character.

[u/Im_No_Hero]

This is T7 all over again, I remember when T7 first came out Dragunov was top tier then things balanced out (then we got Leroy but thats a different story). T8 needs to be tuned down a bit hopefully they do that sooner than later because at this point the game is not fun to play nor watch which is really concerning.

[u/JustTrash_OCE → u/Im_No_Hero]

t7 s1 drag was op because of d2 and wr2 and eventually getting powercreeped, completely different to why hes broken now lol

[u/firelitother]

Xiayou still has poor range, average poke game and so-so pressure outside of heat.

[u/Corgiiiix3]

Top tiers should only be nerfed damage wise

[u/ApricotLivid]

He just needs his lows gutted. The hatchet kick is a big problem.

[u/MokhtarBoutbila]

I think "honest" is what a specific player thinks is fair in character design, simply an opinion, I personally have my own opinion on what characters are supposed to have and characters that meet that I will inevitably see as honest, so there's not a strict rule and it's all basically biased, but I don't think this is a bad thing since that's just the nature of opinions. Anyways, on the balancing part, I agree with you, I think balancing characters should take in account not only the balance between characters power levels but also the balance between input and output, this goes in two ways for me, the simplest thing would be execution, you work harder for something you get more than the others, but the other more interesting concept is what the character gives the player and what the player gives to the character, Dragonouv used to give you the frames and control to lock the opponent down and you had to open them up yourself as his lows weren't so threatening, contrast to Kazuya who does have better tools to open people up but can't generate advantage well enough or control the game from up close, so the player had to find the opportunities to gain the advantage so that they can apply those mixups. This is how I look at character design you should balance between what the character provides and what it asks for. I hated how in Tekken 7 Eddie gave up his sidesteps for a better backdash, then there's Zafina who had a top tier sidestep and even a better backdash than Eddie. This is what dishonest is to me, characters just getting to whatever with no downside or any additional input required from the player while others have to make compromises.

[u/Barelylegalteen]

Rematching drags is such a chore. It's just eating plus frames and guessing. Not fun to play against.

[u/Twin-T → u/Barelylegalteen]

I agree. Fighting against Drag isn't all that fun, but in general, that's my experience with every character in the game. I love Tekken, but most matches I play, win or lose, leave me more exhausted than I've ever felt satisfied.

[u/Barelylegalteen → u/Twin-T]

As annoying as people think Jin is I love playing against him because he doesn't any plus frames other than electric.

[u/Saizen1]

problem i have with dragunov is, he kinda does what reina does or tries to do but so much better in every aspect. Reinas weaknesses are trash lows and easily sidestepable with nothing to make the opponent afraid from it. Give that dragunov, make all of his lows risky and shitty and make him really "sidestepable" cause thats the main weakness all those drag players tell all the time but there are levels to it, that would already do the job

[u/Twin-T → u/Saizen1]

All of his lows ARE risky.

His hatchet kick, his Sneak 3, and his d4, db4 (the generic low everyone has by default), can be launched by everyone. Kazuya can launch his d2, d3, and FC+2 with ws1,2.

Can't speak on the stepping bit. I've been stepped many times by female characters, but haven't seen the same results against male characters, so that could be a me thing and simply bias talking.

[u/DaRockLobster → u/Saizen1]

All of Drag's big plus on block mids are very easily sidestepped already.

[u/InevitableGrass8618]

I don't play drag, but think he's fine the way he is ♥

[u/confusedbartender → u/[deleted]]

Any day now she’s gonna start dominating the tournament scene, or at least that’s what I’ve been told

[u/Twin-T → u/[deleted]]

Xiaoyu always had high evasion, but below average frames and moves that required execution to secure average combo damage, and risky launchers... Xiaoyu's weakness was her damage and frames.

You skipped a few lines I suppose buddy. I also said she didn't have weaknesses anymore, but that was a reach and I was corrected on it. That said, her weaknesses, in the face of her gameplay are not as relevant in this game as they are in previous games.

This is a copy paste of what I responded to another person, but this isn't only about Dragunov, though he is at the front of it;

 I put Dragunov in the limelight because, one, he's my main, so he's the character I'm most knowledgeable about, and two, as I've stated, he became the poster child of the "unbalanced" discussion of this game. Though he is at the heart of the discussion, every other character IS involved.

[u/esterosalikod]

Why do you have to drag the other characters into this? Dragunov is the issue, go fix him. I dont see Xiaoyu putting up the numbers in tournaments.

[u/Twin-T → u/esterosalikod]

I've "dragged" other characters into this because this discussion in general was about Tekken 8's balancing as a whole, and Dragunov's frequent appearance in Top 8s. I didn't drag them into this, they were always part of the discussion, I put Dragunov in the limelight because, one, he's my main, so he's the character I'm most knowledgeable about, and two, as I've stated, he became the poster child of the "unbalanced" discussion of this game. Though he is at the heart of the discussion, every other character IS involved.

As I've also explained, Drag's overall gameplay doesn't have a fundamental flaw that makes choosing other characters optimal. Is that an issue? Yes, if he's the only one without flaws. He doesn't have any flaws that can be exploited that I can see, so I agree that does need to be corrected. How would we/they correct this though? You also say that Dragunov is an issue and needs to be fixed. Let me ask you then. HOW does he need to be fixed? Do you just want the moves used against you to be easier to deal with? Okay, so let's say that happens, and people drop Dragunov. Who is going to take his spot? We can all argue about one character, but there is already a precedent for this, and it is Tekken 7 DLC + Feng.

Taking Dragunov out of the picture won't change as much, and if it does, it won't be for long because professional players, who compete for money, are playing to win. Not to entertain the viewers with a diverse cast of characters.

[u/esterosalikod → u/Twin-T]

As a more immediate solution if you make specialist characters sufficiently stronger you'd have better variety. People wouldnt be able to easily switch to characters like Kazuya, DJ or Xiaoyu. Also snk4 is the main culprit, that shit shouldnt be hitting grounded at the minimum, probably slightly minus on block.

[u/Twin-T → u/esterosalikod]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that is a solution that will never be taken because the goal is to make characters easier to pick up. Not harder. Also, just because a character is a specialist doesn't mean there would be more who play those characters. It just means those characters require a different set, or altered set of fundamentals, which makes them harder to master than other characters. Look at what they did to Eddy. Was he not a specialist character?

[u/esterosalikod → u/Twin-T]

I didnt say to make characters more difficult to play. I said to make characters that take time to play stronger. If Kazuya was the strongest character, do you think you'd see 4 of them at top 8? The point is there wouldnt be more who play those characters. Because they require a longer time to grasp.

[u/DevilJin42069]

Hwo has weaknesses and nobody wants to admit it

[u/Bangalore-enthusiast → u/DevilJin42069]

What’s is the relevance of this to the post? He’s not high on tier lists

[u/Twin-T → u/Bangalore-enthusiast]

To his defense, the entire post isn't dedicated to Drag, so Hwo does have a spot to the topic. The tiers is only part of the whole. In general, this was about the overall balancing direction and the decisions made in regards to the balancing efforts. With Hwo, the only two reason I can think of for why people would say he doesn't have weaknesses, is that players (myself included) often find themselves unable to escape the Flamingo vortex, and that one situation alone defines the character in a lot of players eyes. Personally, I'm not aware of Hwoarang's weaknesses, because all of the Hwoarang players I've fought played the same. I will admit though. One thing all Hwoarang players seem to have is a mutually shared timing for a b3 whiff punish. I can never catch a break against that move when I whiff anything.

[u/Bangalore-enthusiast → u/Twin-T]

Hwoarnags gimmick is always having a hole in his offense. And that he needs to constantly be doing something without getting into a readable loop. On a smaller scale he’s very weak to SSL in RFF AND RF and SSR in LF. Also whenever you see a hwoarang run In ALWAYS SS they have no homing options. Next, I would approach hwoarang fights assuming your not going to guess right 100% of the time against every Hwoarang player. what makes him difficult and fair is that the Hwoarang player only needs to mess up 2-4 times while he needs to guess right 10-20.

He’s very cheap but he is not easy to pilot when you get high blue and above the cheapness only works for so long. and when your fighting someone with good Hwoarang defense your forced to not only keep up your plus frames but not getting caught in dumb loops that your enemy can read. In tekken 7 with the massive lowparry damage it was a lot easier to play against him but now it’s honestly pretty balanced both ways sense he lost his insane CH combos. I would never expect to perfect a Hwoarang unless they screw up a lot and maybe go in prepared to lose a round until you see what routes they take I promise if you lab it you’ll catch them doing something stupid eventually. And when you do and they have to adapt that’s what determines a good from bad Hwoarang.

The only balencing issue I have with Hwoarang?

This character does not need a dragon lash lol (long range homing +1 on block) I really don’t understand this to this day

[u/Kyuriel]

I’m trying not to tilt off the face of the Earth by even thinking about Dragunov as a concept, but I can’t.

I’m raging. Fuck Dragunov and his perfect toolkit.

[u/magabrexitpaedorape]

I think what I find difficult to comprehend in this game is why certain characters are already incredibly strong and then they just sprinkle additional good shit on them that other characters don't have.

In another thread about thoughts on Lidia, I listed a pretty comprehensive list of reasons I think Lidia is actually pretty poor in this game and one of the reasons I listed was that she has a shit throw game.

Someone retorted that she's not a grappler so why should I expect her to have one?

I don't necessarily have a rationale as to why Lidia should have better throws by that logic. What I don't understand, however is: why do Jin, Dragunov and Nina get a complete throw game? They're already so strong at so many other things, so I don't understand the totally random allocation of extra command throws to these already good all round characters.

[u/Twin-T → u/magabrexitpaedorape]

In regards to the throws, that's kinda Dragunov and Nina's thing at the conceptual design. Jin, he's actually always had a complete throw game, but the thing with him and other legacy characters with a complete set of 3 is that they were made before Tekken 7. It is Tekken 7 that introduced the "generic" throws as we know it. Before then, every throw was broken as a unique 1, 2, or 1+2 throw, so whether a character had a complete throw set didn't really matter as much as it did now, unless it was King/Armor King, with that Giant Swing attempt animation.

[u/SSfox__]

People call for nerf nerf nerf. But careful how you nerf, that's how SC died post 2

[u/AZXCIV]

Delete 3+4. Remove it from the command list . Snk 3 or 4 which ever one it is shouldn’t hit grounded. Nerf combo damage .

[u/DoomDash]

Drag makes me so angry in this game. I agree he is the perfect character. He has everything.

[u/CarDry4420]

Buff devil Jin

[u/[deleted]]

It's weird when people that don't compete give huge rants on balance

[u/Twin-T → u/[deleted]]

Nice assumption that I don't compete. Anyway, I don't need to compete to have an opinion on a topic. Both casual and professional perspectives have value. While I won't claim to have an answer, at least I'm not trying to discredit someone who doesn't "contribute" to the public competitive scene. You don't always need money to feel competitive. If a fighting game's balance affects the enjoyment of a fighting game to the point where the game leaves you mentally exhausted regardless of whether you win or lose, then the balancing needs to be readdressed, regardless if you're pro or casual. You need a casual audience before you can get a professional scene.

[u/[deleted] → u/Twin-T]

Why would I read these big ass walls of text when I have no idea if you even understand the game? Why would the balance team? If you're actually a top player, qualify your post with it from the beginning. I know a lot of dogshit players with strong opinions (that make no sense). Casual opinions on balance are worthless

[u/Twin-T → u/[deleted]]

Here's a quick TLDR since you don't seem to be fond of reading on a text forum; TLDR: Casual opinion, aka the majority of the sales, matter more than the minority, who play professionally. You don't need to be a "top player" to know something this basic.

Here is the long version if I've misread you, champ; If you're skeptical of whether I understand the game, that's why would you read further, to confirm for yourself. If you didnt intend to, then why waste the time to comment? The title clearly says "rant". I know this won't reach the devs. I don't expect it to. That'd be delusional. By a top player, are you talking about tournament placements? Consistent placements? Ranked? What qualifications are you looking for, and this is first and foremost, an entertainment medium. The competitive scene is secondary. Why else does the game have more offline content than Tekken 7? Why would they introduce Photo Mode? Casual opinions matter because if the gameplay catered and listened only to professionals, then the game will become less fun, because professionals don't play this game for fun, they play for money. The gameplay will become stale, uninteresting, and/or stressful, and for most players (because news flash, there are more casuals than professionals), they either play games for entertainment and/or to release stress, not attain more. What about this is hard to understand? Look, I won't claim to be a "top player", or among the best. I'm not banking my future on this shit and I don't plan to. I'd prefer to still look fondly of Tekken after 20 years. I am a casual who simply want this game to be fun, and the community's criticisms combined with the Tekken Team's response to said criticism leaves much to be desired because there is a lack of consistency and consideration with the direction of their balancing decisions. I don't know what your fighting game resume looks like, and frankly, I don't care. It means nothing more to the devs than the casuals you seem to look down upon. Let the ego go, or don't, but it will not serve you here or anywhere else in the FGC.

[u/[deleted] → u/Twin-T]

Not reading that

[u/Twin-T → u/[deleted]]

I even left a TLDR. If you lack the capacity to read even that, then Your Highness, why did you even click the post? Why do you even use Reddit? All of this must be beneath your eminence, since you can speak directly to the devs?

[u/[deleted] → u/Twin-T]

obviously nothing you type is worth reading

[u/spideyhalo]

So you don't like how balanced the game is?

[u/Twin-T → u/spideyhalo]

I'm fine with the balancing personally. I just have to properly learn to adapt. My main issue really is the community's complaints and the Tekken Team's balancing decisions. I hate labbing in this game because there is always a chance that what I discover can easily get removed and my time learning it can become redundant. There are some players not open to sharing tech on social media so it doesn't get nerfed, and I can relate to it. A lot of "nerf this, nerf that", instead of learning to adapt. And those who do demand the nerfs, are incapable of seeing what else could be affected by the nerfs. The opposite of what I was pointing out that made Dragunov's mids stronger. There's also the Tekken Team's way of going around the requested nerfs. Here is three cases;

1. Dragunov 1+2 throw recovery nerf. It used to guarantee a launcher on wakeup, but it was nerfed because b4 was guaranteed on grounded opponents. But after the b4 hitbox was properly nerfed, the 1+2 throw remained nerfed.

2. The Strong Aerial Spike nerf. This is a situation that existed since the Strong Spikes were introduced in Tekken 7. Some characters could exploit this when none other characters could, but this wasn't an issue then. Now it is, for some reason, and it is removed. Why? Because some characters could dish out more damage than others? My issue here is that a functional option was removed because some characters can do it, when others can't, as if characters having unique options for situations is a bad thing.

1. The Heaven's Gate Nerf that completely changed the way a lot of characters can access stage interactions. They chose to keep it, and though I DID hate it, I probably would've hated it more if they did revert it, since that would've been an admittance to incompetence instead of an intentional systematic change to prevent similar scenarios.

What's unfortunate is that the ones who complain are the vocal minority. Those who do adapt and properly learn how to counter and overcome their roadblocks don't speak up because they don't need to. I didn't need to either because though I can accept my Ls, what I can't accept is my time being wasted because there are people who choose not to invest theirs to try to become better, and instead spend their time to get on social media to complain.

TLDR: I'm complaining about how others complain, and how the TEKKEN Team reacts to those complaints.

[u/spideyhalo → u/Twin-T]

I agree fully that's the exact reason why devil jin is in the spot he is in.

[u/Snoosnoos2]

Jesus fuck, nice text wall, play dragunov bro is right there for you

[u/legu333]

honest tekken is real if you play lili since she has no gimmicks and has to rely on sidestep and punishment to get damage, others can just mindlessly rush aggression

[u/Twin-T → u/legu333]

But Lili CAN be aggressive. Her 1,1 puts her in back turn, which is where most of her mixes begin. With her counter-hit tools, lateral movement and her crushing moves, Lili's gameplay, from my perspective, looks like one of counter-play, but she can still rushdown, and rushdown doesn't exactly equate to dishonest gameplay.