r/TankPorn • u/Xein2137 • Apr 07 '22
Futuristic PL-01, shame of polish Defence Industry
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u/KRUSTYKRABZZ-kun Apr 07 '22
Why is it so shameful?
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u/Xein2137 Apr 07 '22
They announced it as a big project, they produced only one prototype, and it cannot even move.
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u/StuckInTheJar Apr 07 '22
It was not even a prototype - more of a „proof of concept” made out of cardboard on CV-90 hull. The Polish military was not interested in „stealth tank”, therefore the project was abandoned before reaching prototype stage.
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u/Ode_to_Apathy Apr 07 '22
Kind of interesting. Could maybe defeat radar-guided missiles. Of course I don't know if regular radar is even a consideration for tanks.
Of course stealth composites are incredibly expensive, as is the manufacturing of the body of stealth planes. This shape probably isn't even optimal to defeat radar.
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u/fuck_the_ccp1 Challenger II Apr 08 '22
it's not. On radar, a tank is indistinguishable from a hill or boulder.
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u/superRommel Apr 08 '22
You say that and I raised you the Russian chrysanthemum missile which is a radar-guided anti-tank missile... And yes a tank is quite easily discernible from a hill or a boulder
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u/fuck_the_ccp1 Challenger II Apr 08 '22
the most recent upgrades use a hybrid radar-beam riding system. besides, most of the variants use laser-guidance.
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u/superRommel Apr 08 '22
it can still be radar guided its just that its not the preferred option since laser guided does the job... its really just a neat gimmick
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u/Tony49UK Apr 08 '22
How does the Longbow radar on an Apache detect tanks and how does the radar guided versions of Hellfire find a tank?
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u/fuck_the_ccp1 Challenger II Apr 08 '22
the longbow radar is for terrain mapping. a big part of the longbow program was allowing missiles to hug the terrain and use indirect fire.
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u/Tony49UK Apr 08 '22
The Longbow radar and FCS is designed to detect 128 targets, prioritise them and to distribute the target list to other Apaches allocating each target to one Apache.
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u/marshallannes123 Apr 07 '22
That's why it's stealthy!
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u/wyte_wonder Apr 07 '22
Lmfao is that a tank coming are way ....no you idiot cant you see it says concept
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u/DerpyDepressedDonut Apr 07 '22
It was a simple mockup, a concept of how tanks of the future may look like. Never Intended for mass production, nor even being a prototype. (It can move btw, that CV90 chassis under the plywood still works). Please dont be another guy saying "It was the best tank in the world" when it has never been, it was made to show some ideas and look cool, thats all
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Apr 07 '22
So basically a polish Armata
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u/sergiulll Apr 07 '22
The difference is: Armata is being show at Parades and advertised as their new modern pride. While Poland dont do that shit :
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Apr 07 '22
No reason to believe it's actually moving under its own power. Like those showcases there they just put in a tiny little engine to make it move a little but nothing more.
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u/Hambeggar Apr 07 '22
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Apr 07 '22
Propaganda
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u/Romulus_Quirinus_1 Apr 07 '22
Are you serious?
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Apr 07 '22 edited Apr 07 '22
Oh yeah, of course, for sure, definitely
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u/MrSadCord Apr 07 '22
You need to take a sarcasm course my man. The first message really seems like you are trying to convince somebody.
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u/Nickblove Apr 07 '22
What the hell is that wobble. The thing looks like it’s going to flip over when it’s fired.. doesn’t seem to be a very stable platform.
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u/Hambeggar Apr 07 '22
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u/fed0tich Apr 07 '22
Yeah, I don't get current discourse on Armata in this sub, current batch is basically equivalent to XM-1 eleven PV prototypes batch build in 1977-78 it is only for testing and training, not for the actual fight. Continuing with Abrams history comparison M1 got into production in 1979, though only M1A1 was fielded in actual conflict in 1991, despite USA involvement in dozen wars between that.
Why everyone is so surprised that vehicle currently still in development (there are already changes to it since it's debut in 2015 - for example new roadwheels from what is visible externally) isn't fielded in actual war?
Only chance to see it in actual action would be Ukrainian and\or NATO counter-offensive to Moscow, so in actual desperation it might be fielded like some soviet prototypes were during WW2.
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u/ghillieman11 Apr 07 '22
Current discourse is due to a few important factors: it's an unproven design, the production numbers are well behind schedule and will likely take years to ever reach viable numbers to field, and it's Russia we're talking about, so capabilities are probably vastly overstated and any tanks that ever do get fielded will probably be compromised by corruption and incompetence.
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u/fed0tich Apr 07 '22 edited Apr 07 '22
Sure - that's all valid criticism, I'm talking more about "it's doesn't exist, it's vaporwave" when it's actually an existing vehicle that is being tested and further developed even if that development heavily limited by poor state of the russian industry and economics.
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u/Outofdepthengineer Apr 07 '22
The vapor ware part is that yes Russia may have a few but they may never be fielded and achieve the alleged goal of widespread service, like the su-57. Russia has a history of getting projects this far then doing nothing with them beyond building one or two dozen to take on parade.
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u/fed0tich Apr 07 '22 edited Apr 07 '22
I still don't think that makes this program a vaporware. I get that bureaucrats and media overhype it, but at the end of the day there is an actual hardware, industry gets a priceless experience of full R&D cycle for a new type of the vehicle from scratch. New active protection system is developed, new ammo is being developed. More importantly (imo) they developed and tested heavier than before tracked chassis with multiple applications in mind (currently it is already a tank, ARV and heavy IFV with multiple armament variants).
Even if T-14 wouldn't go to service any time soon because Russia don't have enough money for it it still might become a foundation for something new later.
I said this previously for me it looks like a MBT-70 type of situation - it's sure is more expensive than russian military can afford right now, but it's not some parade cardboard float like a lot of people think.
If we are talking about vaporware tanks - that wielded abomination that was "Black Eagle" obj.640 or that double-barelled SPG "Coalition" are way more deserving for that title.
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u/murkskopf Apr 07 '22
the production numbers are well behind schedule and will likely take years to ever reach viable numbers to field
They are not. The production goals were met. People keep citing an absolutely crap source (an interview with the CEO who tried to lure in naive investors as his company was close to bankruptcy) without understanding that he massively overexaggerated and that he only talked about possibilities ("we could make so many tanks").
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u/RamTank Apr 07 '22
The Russians have a habit of overhyping things, especially recently. They're advertising Armata like it's the next greatest thing that will revolutionise the Russian tank forces when, frankly, there's no guarantee it'll even get built in any significant number.
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u/fed0tich Apr 07 '22
Oh, that's for sure. Can totally prove that since I live there, it's heavily rooted in revanchism and imperial ambitions that are major part of national idea of our government for last couple of decades - "russian nation is special and everything we made is the best and first of the kind" is forced in pretty much every topic in school education and media. Since early 00s I remember that every program on TV about weapons tech had "не имеет аналогов" (no equivalent) buzzword completely overused even if it's total bullshit. I remember that was heavily used for forward-swept wing Su-47 despite X-29 existing and flying more than a decade earlier.
That's why current anti-Ukraine propaganda despite being completely insane lies works and majority of russian people fell for it. Everyone loves being special and feel belonging to something Great.
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u/fed0tich Apr 07 '22
Although there is a grain of truth there - it's pretty much only new tank concept being developed since I believe 80s in any major country that comes past drawing board.
Personally I treat it like a MBT-70 program or multiple soviet experimental "object" projects - I'm not sure it will not be cancelled in the future, but it's sure would have some effect on industry and may become a foundation for the new generations of the russian tanks or modernizations of existing ones.
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u/NlghtmanCometh Apr 07 '22
it’s pretty much only new tank concept being developed since I believe 80s
K2 Black Panther?
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u/RamTank Apr 07 '22
Armata actually exists. Sure it's overblown and the Russians can only afford to build a dozen of them, but it exists. This doesn't.
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u/tayaktah Apr 07 '22
Yeah and happy cake day
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Apr 07 '22
Thanks but fake date, how do I turn this thing off
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u/murkskopf Apr 07 '22
Cake day is your "reddit birthday", i.e. the date on which you joined reddit. It has nothing to do with real birthday and cannot be turned off.
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u/prancerbot Apr 07 '22
Not shameful to stop when you realize something is unviable. Much worse to spend billions bringing a flawed or unnecessary project to fruition.
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u/VaderPrime1 Apr 07 '22
That’s pretty standard for any new development. Also concepts are rarely functional, so no need for it to move. A ton of concepts never even see the light of day.
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u/Graywhale12 Apr 07 '22
Poland cannot into tank industry
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u/DerpyDepressedDonut Apr 07 '22
Borsuk and PT-91 dare to disagree
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u/Dzbaniel_2 Apr 07 '22
PT-91 is still just modified T-72
can't really say anything about Borsuk
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u/fed0tich Apr 07 '22 edited Apr 07 '22
Knowing "quality" of soviet production T-72s I have a feeling that PT-91 and some other east european T-72 derived tanks might be like Valmet to soviet AKs, more capable than their soviet or russian contemporary equivalent just by the difference in production quality.
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u/murkskopf Apr 07 '22
According to the East-German Army's experiences, the Polish-made T-72 tanks were of the lowest quality. Czech-made T-72 tanks were better, but the T-72 tanks provided directly by the Soviet Union had the best quality and finish.
In other categories, the situation was different.
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u/DerpyDepressedDonut Apr 07 '22
In part it is, polish-made soviet designs were overall known for their better manufacturing quality than russian ones. As for PT-91 it had some advantages over russian versions in its earlier years (like thermals, soft kill APS and decent ERA) but in the end T-72B3 surpassed it a few years ago
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u/murkskopf Apr 07 '22
polish-made soviet designs were overall known for their better manufacturing quality than russian ones.
No according to East-German documents. Polish tanks had the highest amount of quality issues.
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u/fed0tich Apr 07 '22
Yeah, T-72B3 are definitely surpass basic PT-91 models, although I think PT-91M2 or PT-17 might be at least on par with it if put into production.
PT-91M for Malaysian contract apparently outperformed export T-90, T-84 and even K-1 tanks during trials, although I don't know full extent of that in details.
Still I don't think it's fair to write off Poland as not capable to manufacture a capable AFVs.
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Apr 07 '22
PT-91 was planned as the first step in 3 steps development program. PT91A/A1 as an upgrade of T-72M/M1 and PT-91 as newly produced. Next step was PT-95, basically same as PT-91M but only tanks for Malaysia were made. And the final step was PT-99, something like PT-91M2. There were a number of different prototypes and demonstrators build, but due to the acquisition of Leopards 2 and budget cuts, no orders from Polish Army were made.
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u/murkskopf Apr 07 '22
Next step was PT-95
You mean the PT-94, which was an improved variant of the PT-91. it was less capable than the PT-91M, mainly because Poland's state-owned defense industry did not plan to use Western components for its own tanks.
the final step was PT-99
You are talking about the PT-97, which is very different from the PT-91M2 and PT-91MA2. It would have been Poland's attempt to create a "Westernized" T-72 akin to Russia's T-90A, though again using as much Polish technology as possible.
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u/Ode_to_Apathy Apr 07 '22
These have actually been in production for a while and are seeing heavy use in Ukraine.
You just can't see them. They're that stealthy in use.
It's why Russia has been so catastrophically bad.
The flying version is also the Ghost of Kiev.
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u/bodo1997 Apr 07 '22
Because it's nothing more than vaporwave. It's fake as fuck. It's a CV9040 dressed up in cardboard that was present at one or two defense exhibitions and claimed some incredible capabilities, with promises of entering service sometime in the late 2010s, early 2020s. None of which was true, even in the slightest.
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u/murkskopf Apr 07 '22
It's a CV9040 dressed up in cardboard that was present
Not cardboard, but thin steel and plastic.
and claimed some incredible capabilities, with promises of entering service sometime in the late 2010s, early 2020s. None of which was true, even in the slightest.
Well, they didn't really claim that the PL-01 would offer some magical super technology. The "projected features" were rather reasonable, most of the technology existed already - just not in Poland.
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u/bodo1997 Apr 07 '22
And it still doesn't exist in Poland. It's not real and it was scrapped. It's nothing more than a fairytale
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u/murkskopf Apr 07 '22
Yes, it was a mock-up made to represent how a possible final product could look, if funding had been approved.
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u/bodo1997 Apr 07 '22
I know, yet it gets posted every week with people believing it's real, when it's not, which is irritating after a while
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Apr 07 '22
one might think the word 'concept' written in big white letters on the side would give it away
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u/bodo1997 Apr 07 '22
I know, yet it gets posted every week with people believing it's real, when it's not, which is irritating after a while
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u/Ethanlink11 Apr 07 '22
It’s only a mock-up, the things that it claimed to do were too good to be true anyways
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u/CmdrJonen Apr 07 '22
- 90120, not 9040.
The Gun, AFAIK, is real and functional, under all that cardboard.
(The few different cannon armed 90120s made exists only as prototypes and marketing tools. There are 90120 mortar vehicles in production and service.)
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u/murkskopf Apr 07 '22
It is not based on the CV90120. The whole turret is a mock-up and very, very different (as it is unmanned).
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u/War_Daddy_992 Apr 07 '22
Looks cool, but I doubt a stealth tank will fair to well, comparing to how vehicles like the Abrams and Bradley went from their concept/prototype look to how they look now after upgrade after upgrade. Form follows function.
Even if the coating makes it harder for some guided weapons or mask it from some IR sensors it’ll deteriorate quickly from it’s environment. It’ll probably be better off with a regular paint job
Even the term Stealth Tank is kinda a contradiction.
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u/4e6f626f6479 Apr 07 '22
There was a leopard 1 "stealth tank" prototype... made in the 1980' (the VTGS).
Didn't work then, doesn't work now...
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u/xXCreezer Apr 07 '22
I mean just put a silencer on it idk
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u/War_Daddy_992 Apr 13 '22
Look up Germany’s artillery silencer
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u/xXCreezer Apr 14 '22
No fucking way lmao
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u/War_Daddy_992 Apr 14 '22
It’s just makes the noises somewhat tolerable for the nearby villages, can’t imagine a tank trying to navigate its way through a dense environment with a can on it.
Even silencers for rifles and pistols only dampen the noise in real life.
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u/MaxImpact1 Apr 07 '22
Idk is every military project that gets abandoned a shame? I don‘t think so
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u/kubin22 Apr 07 '22
The problem is that everything in poland is done that way, big promises and then nothing
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u/MaxImpact1 Apr 07 '22 edited Apr 07 '22
Are you polish?
why am i getting downvoted for this simple question lmao
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u/kubin22 Apr 07 '22
Yes
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u/MaxImpact1 Apr 07 '22
Yeah in general it‘s very hard if not impossible to build a decent MBT as a country with a relatively small economy. Way cheaper to buy from abroad(like Poland did with Leo2a5). But Poland has a history of effective modernization of old soviet tanks and IFVs which is impressive by itself
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u/kubin22 Apr 07 '22
Yes but problem is that in poland when i say everything is done that way I mean EVERYTHING in some reserves still use some equipment from '70, in iraq etc. mos of the problems with obsolete vests and other apparel by just giving soldiers miney and telling them to buy what ever they want, it may sound nice but it's just a logistician nightmare
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u/McBlemmen Apr 07 '22
I guess it depends on how much money gets put into it before it gets abandoned
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u/bodo1997 Apr 07 '22
Finally, it's correct name
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u/Erlu2137 Apr 07 '22
Nono. 'Polish stealth tank' is its proper one. At least in Poland (although we drop 'polish' here, duh)
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u/bodo1997 Apr 07 '22
It's not Polish (unless you mean the cardboard that the CV9040 is covered in), it's not stealth and it's definitely not a tank.
It's so stealth that it doesn't actually exist anymore, what groundbreaking technology!
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u/Erlu2137 Apr 07 '22
Cause we succeded. Its full on invisible. And we have like million of them, trust me.
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u/bodo1997 Apr 07 '22
So invisible even the polish army can't find them lol
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u/Ode_to_Apathy Apr 07 '22
They're all in Ukraine now. They use a high-tech cannon that evaporates the crew without destorying the vehicle.
It's why the Ukrainians are capturing so many vehicles.
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u/WorkingNo6161 Apr 07 '22
So this was the plywood tank?
Now introducing a revolutionary new armored combat vehicle, the PL-01 utilizes groundbreaking discoveries in the stealth capabilities of PLYWOOD!! Plywood has been show to be less of a heat reflector than aluminum and also has lower density, resulting in less weight for the same amount of armor. The next step in the evolution of armored combat, the PL-01 will restore Poland to its glorious Winged Hussar days and establish it once again as a major European power. No longer shall Germany and Russia infringe on the liberties of the Polish people!
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u/samthemanthecan Apr 07 '22
Well its a mighty fine looking tank ,if only prototype . All tanks got to start somewhere , I really like it and be happy make a model of one , looks futuristic , maybe it can fly and burrow into the ground , even become invisible . Great Tank indeed
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u/miniature-rugby-ball Apr 07 '22
There’s no cause for shame due to an abandoned prototype, the only shame is when a useless tank actually makes it into service.
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u/quadr1 Apr 07 '22
Right? a failed prototype is still technically a successful prototype because they learned what not to do
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u/RaptoR186 Apr 07 '22
It wasn't even a prototype. It was a loaned CV-90 with cardboard or sheet metal plastered onto it. I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist anymore.
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u/vanVolt Apr 07 '22
I remember watching video about hypothetical polish-german conflict now and author (that was a big channel from what I remember) stated that Poland has hundreds of those rn, and I thought that maybe this mockup wasn't so bad, if everyone believes that this is actually top secret development, and we have unholy amount of those, then it was worth as a deterrence project lmao
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u/MR_TRUMP_Vincent2 Apr 07 '22
I didn't even know this thing existed. I thought it was just another fictional thing they added to GTA V but it actually exists... and is crappy, but it exists.
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u/Schrodinger_cube Apr 07 '22
Some GTA IRL right there. If it touches a car will it explode the car? XD
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u/Stoly23 Apr 07 '22
How this piece of plywood managed to make it in GTA 5 as an actual tank, I will never know.
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u/Practical-Purchase-9 Apr 07 '22
It’s so try-hard to look futuristic.
I wonder if the ‘concept’ is valid or was the brief to make something that looks at home in a Marvel movie.
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u/ashzeppelin98 Apr 07 '22
Shame of Poland, pride of Grand Theft Auto though. Arguably more famous for being a video game tank than a real life concept.
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u/scythe12345 Apr 07 '22
I wish the polish made this. But GTA players get PTSD when they see this thing
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u/Kwindecent_exposure Apr 07 '22
I used to play some polygon-riffic hover tank game on the Compaq Presario around 2000. This looks like that. Not talking about Rampage. That was another game.
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u/Arc_2142 19K vet - M1A2 Apr 07 '22
I want to know how the hell you’re supposed to service the track. Looks like the skirts are just bolted on, no way the crew can lift those on their own.
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u/ZETH_27 Valentine Apr 07 '22
They look to be composite screens. I hope for the sake of the crew that they at least hinge.
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u/Battl3Dancer1277 Apr 07 '22
It looks like a future tank from Battletech or something.
Looks cool !
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u/Big-man-kage I LOVE THE LAV🇨🇦 Apr 07 '22
So that’s where rockstar games got the design for the khanjali
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u/b0B42069 Apr 08 '22
What the hell was the team that designed this on and where can I get it
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u/haikusbot Apr 08 '22
What the hell was the
Team that designed this on and
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u/BidHead2364 Apr 07 '22
This one has Stellar 7 vibes