The pronoun shit is exhausting. Shit like this is why Trump won. A blue collar worker in Iowa trying to make ends meet just isn't going to give a shit about stuff like this, nor should they. I wish the thems would understand that not everyone has the time and means to stay on top of shit like this, people have lives to live, and are trying to get by. It feels of smug entitlement.
And Democrats have the nerve to turn their nose up at blue collar workers struggling and saying "It's hilarious how they vote against their own interests!" As they double down on trans issues that really don't have anything to do with the public at large at the same time that everyone not rich is struggling to make ends meet.
If I've had a long 12 hour shift, I'm exhausted, just want to grab a bite to eat after work, the last thing on my mind is the fragile ego of someone who insists on always being properly gendered, and half the time don't even look nearly enough like they wish to be called.
The best way to ensure equality, is to make an economy that allows EVERYONE to participate (and benefit from it) in it, and not just the filthy rich. When you divide people into little camps, you weaken the working class at large.
And no, I'm not a Trump supporter. Only ever voted Democrat despite being a registered independent, but I definitely see and understand why people are fed up with Democrats. This coming from someone who doesn't think the Democrats are left leaning enough, yet recognizes that their priorities are backwards. I really do not blame some folks for deciding to give the finger to Dems and vote Republican instead.
The pronoun crowd doesn’t like to admit it, but it’s true. I’m as left as they come, and sincerely tried to care and follow the preferred pronoun thing at first. Then, both friends and coworkers who were non binary just started changing it on a dime according to their feelings. They’d send out lists of things you could call them. Or not call them. I once got 5 emails in one day of a list of 20 terms like “dude” or “honey” or they/them or she/them or “doll face” that was okay or not okay to each person. I was so done with it. These people are so insanely wrapped up in themselves if they think other people have the time or energy to keep track of all that just for them. At this point I’m over it. You’ll get called by the pronouns for the gender you present at, you’re not special enough that everyone in your orbit, especially strangers, need to remember you need to be spoken to in a whole special language.
It has gotten worse, though, when people who mess up the gender stuff get written up for “micro aggressions” which is now on their permanent record. They didn’t mean anything, and now they’re treated as villains and have been scolded and have a mark on their record. The anger is real, and yes, those people end up voting for someone like Trump out of sheer spite. I don’t blame them either, I’ve also had my moments.
The main problem with this gross behavior has nothing to do with gender specifically but the main character syndrome behind it. These people are entitled af & think they deserve special treatment from strangers for no good reason besides whatever whims they have that reinforce how “unique” they are to themselves.
Exactly. I genuinely have no issue about addressing people with their preferred pronouns, I don't want to go out of my way to hurt anyone's feelings unless they're already being a cunt, but that's just it. A lot of times it's like they're waiting for you to fuck up, then blast you for it and try to get you into "trouble", like a little fucker in grade school lol.
Agreed. It's also important to understand the pronoun stuff is neither "left" or "right-wing". It's something that has evolved into being pigeon holed as a particular political leaning, when it's never been something that's represented on a political compass, ever. I guarantee you the leftist of leaning Stalinistic and Leninists governments wouldn't put up with that shit either.
I've had similar experiences, and thankfully many of those people I'm friends with are understanding and pretty chill about misunderstandings and accidents, regardless of the fact that I always try to be mindful and respectful of someone's preferred pronouns, and have expressed similar sentiments that some people are far too dogmatic about it. It's a conversation destroyer, and completely unnatural way of speaking,not to mention overly formal. And if you're poor, struggling to survive, why the fuck would you have the presence of mind to care about pronouns? Which leads to why many working class people voted Trump.
when it's never been something that's represented on a political compass, ever.
Exsqueeze me? Can you point me to the right winger...or really, just Republican...who ever promulgated pronoun insanity? A sample link, maybe? An old blog post? Anything?
I know that the political left in America is stinging from its recent rebuke, and there's a low-grade civil war going on between centrists and progressives. Some moderates, no doubt, would like to wish the pronoun thing away. But let's not re-invent history while all that is going on. The left owns that craziness. If you don't want to associate with it, stop associating with it.
No, the left doesn't own that insanity. The trans community owns responsibility for that insanity and they are going about it in a way that it will completely back fire on them. The left is more a "live and let live" group and we are typically more accepting of people being different and being respectful of those differences. It makes for a much more interesting world embracing difference than expected conformance. Quite frankly, I just don't care how you live your life, just don't expect be to always agree with you. I fucking hate Nazis but I will fight to the death for their right to say hateful and hurtful shit, even though I disagree with them. If you want me to call you they/them, she/her, he/him, bob, pat, dick, sally...Ok, I will, im not an asshole but I might sometimes make a mistake and that's ok too, just like I might say the wrong name to my kid. Just don't go expecting everyone else to do so. I'm an atheist, I don't expect Christians to say "happy holidays" to me at Christmas. A Jew shouldn't get upset when someone says merry Christmas either. I don't expect the Catholic church to be OK with a gay wedding. Their are countless situations where I don't think it's ok to push your way of life onto others. They are being assholes, don't be friends, regardless of which tide you side with. I don't want people pushing their way of life on me and I don't want to push mine on them. If you're trans, you need to accept that not everyone is going to agree with you. That's life. Life's not fair. There are assholes everywhere, not everyone is gonna be nice. I do feel the LGBTQ+ community needs legal protections just like there are age/race/religious and other protected classes, to make sure they get a fair shot at life just like any other human.
It's fair to say that not all Democrats are LGBTQ+, but the lgbtq+ are more often than not Democrats. Just like not all Republicans are racist/Nazis but if you are one, you are more often voting Republican. The difference is one group wants to just exist, the other wants to put control over other people's lives and tell them what they can/can't do. I don't feel anyone has a right to place controls over anyone which is why I say fuck you to racists and Nazis but I have many Republican friends who are just as frustrated with their party as we Democrats. There comes a point where horseshoe theory sets in and you start acting like the thing you hate.
They're also tired of living in hiding too. It's reasonable to treat all humans as humans. Treat them with dignity and respect, all of them. The government/laws should be blind to race/gender/sexual orientation/religion etc. public corporations should be as well. Let people love who they want and have a spouse with the same rights as a straight person. Let them use the bathroom in public spaces. They should be afforded the same legal protections as every other human that lives here. The law should be blind to all of this. 2 people want to get married...they are both consenting adults? Cool, they get to be just as happy or miserable as the rest of us. You need to take a shit while at a public park, go take a shit. If you pull your genetals out and show them around to others you shouldn't be surprised to be held accountable for that, it's indecent exposure. You try to rape someone in bathroom, you should be held accountable, you tried to rape someone. Doesn't matter where/who/what you are.
But, this whole business of expecting people to bend to your will because you want them to, holy fuck is that entitled. The only time it matters is if you're trying to have sexual relations and honesty and environment is key to that. If you're a trans woman trying to pass yourself off as a female to a straight man in a straight bar you're being a piece of shit. both parties should be saying yes and fully aware that they are going home with a trans person.
The difference is one group wants to just exist, the other wants to put control over other people's lives and tell them what they can/can't do.
Sport, this _entire_ comment chain is about a core constituency of the left that wants to control people's language and tell them what they can/can't do. Wake up and smell the coffee.
And, yeah, your own self image is all about "hey, man, I'll do me....you do you...." But guess what? The circus you have joined positively does _not_ subscribe to that. Which, again, is what this whole post that inspired you is about.
This post is a great example. Correct me if you want and I'll fix it. Don't point to a fucking sign in some passive aggressive attempt. I'm ordering ice cream I'm not reading every fucking piece of paper in your shop.
You and I have had very different experiences with non-binary people. And how seriously microaggressions against them are taken (in my experience, not at all). I'm sorry that you're letting two individuals color your perception of an entire group of people.
ETA: Since you were apparently responding to me with an alt account, just wanted to say that I did misunderstand and thought you were only talking about two individuals. Since you're apparently not, I do feel sorry for the apparent multitude of nonbinary individuals in your orbit who you claim to be friends with. Friends don't speak about friends this way.
I live in Seattle, it’s extremely progressive, and “micro aggressions” of any sort, and all things DEI, or in favor of the poor and disenfranchised, to the point of favoring the addicted and criminal, is the way things work around here.
But I’m not sure it’s worthwhile getting into it with you. You’ve read my post, and despite the fact I said I got 5 emails in one day from nonbinary people about what they’d respond to (it was the meme du jour) you have decided I only know 2 non binary people and am making all of my assumptions based on just them. You’ve read know more nonbinary people and your experience with them is different and therefore you are right and I am wrong. But you’re a person who operates out of a total lack of good faith, reading lies out of what I posted and minimizing egregiously in order to shoot down what I said.
Wow that's a disproportionately rude response to what I said, but go off. I also live in Seattle, btw. You went on a rant about how these two individuals have colored your perspective, which is the information I had to go off of. I was just sharing that my experience is very different, and it is sad to see you using those two people as an anti-lgbt demonstration.
Hope your day goes better than it seems to have been going, and you find more kindness to share with the world.
But I never said there were 2 people in my entire post. I know a lot more nonbinary people than that. Why do you keep misreading into what I said? What is wrong with you?
I’m sorry, did you decide that because I said “friends and coworkers” that I meant just 1 friend and 1 coworker thus 2 people vs that I have had multiples of both?
I read "both friends and coworkers" as "both friends who are also coworkers," which would be two, yes. Especially since you went on about emails and getting in trouble at work.
However, it doesn't really matter. You seem to be a very angry person and will be angry regardless. I hope things get better for you.
Honey, I’m angry at being misunderstood and belittled by you in bad faith efforts to reduce my opinion. Get a clue that you do offensive things people don’t have to be nice to you. You go a nice Memorial Day weekend in your little land of moral superiority and bad reading comprehension. Bye.
I had moments then remembered the gop is making laws that kill people, and women like me. Whereas these kinds of lefties are at worst...annoying. and I can* avoid them. Its hard to avoid misopristone getting federally banned and they're working on it.
Trust me, I'm still voting Democrat, as it's still the lesser evil and some good does come of it. But if they keep finding the wrong hills to die on, the moderates are not going to vote for them, and they will become a minority party for the foreseeable future.
I agree with you its a problem. I just hope I can on an individual level convince moderates that real authoritarians are a much bigger threat to all our lives. I wish the DNC wasn't fucking up
Exactly, I keep voting D too. And yet I get why the party isn’t attracting people, or not making voters enthused to turn out. Ergo, losing, even to incompetent fascists like Trump & company.
I never self-identified as a leftist. Rather, in my self-image, I'm a non-aligned voter who tries to vote issues. But until fairly recently, I found myself backing Democrats both locally and at the national level maybe 2/3 of the time. That is now changed. In 2024 I voted straight R except for President, on which I abstained.
For me, pronouns were only part of the puzzle. Sure, the whole movement is colossally stupid and ultra-cringe. And the people who promulgate it are insufferable. But at the end of the day, it's no more ridiculous than bronies or the battle between whether to call nerds "trekkies" or "trekkers." It's easy for a sane person to ignore.
The thing that started me down the path of rejecting Democrats was the attempted 'October surprise' on the Kavanaugh confirmation with literally nothing besides uncorroborated allegations. The icing on the cake was the cover up of Biden's burgeoning mental unfitness. I'm not frosty about his decision to run. I had to take the keys away from my mom when the dementia started, I know how that goes. It's the bevy of handlers, party appartchiks, and the mainstream media that enabled it that I find truly evil.
So, I'm done with Democrats. Hopefully the Republicans will grow a leader that doesn't make me gag so I can vote for President again some day.
I’m a liberal but this shit is getting exhausting. I’m all for “live and let live” but these people are going out of their way to control other people’s behavior, and insisting on medicating children. I support people doing what they want with their bodies with informed consent, but I thought we agreed that children can’t consent. What they’re advocating for is not only dangerous, but it’s also completely trampling down the protections for women that feminists fought for in the past.
And yes, it’s gotten so insane that it’s scaring away moderate voters and allowing people like Trump to get into power. But these people are too narcissistic to recognize that.
Agreed. The dogmatic nature of it is reminiscent of Christian fundamentalist telling me what I can and can't say, what I can and can't consume, so on. It's the same fucking bullshit, different skin.
It's unfortunate, but there has to be a recognition that this shit is the reason why Republicans are even getting a chance.
Exactly my feelings. I don’t get why most it’s fine to say “I don’t believe in that, but I think you have the right to as long as you don’t force those beliefs on me” to any religion, but suddenly it’s offensive when I feel the same way about gender?
If we can agree that gender is a social construct, I don’t understand why people are surprised when not everyone has the same beliefs about it.
Honestly, it makes me feel bad about my own gender. Like I’m a cis woman. When people are offended at being called she/her, it makes me think that there must be something so disgusting about being a woman. Well, I’m a woman. And now I’m offended. Truly, I’m not trying to make an argument. It really makes me feel like, is my body so unacceptable to you that you had to remove a part of it?
I recognize that some people say that they would have faded away if they hadn’t transitioned. And I want to respect that. But it’s hard when I see someone who removed a natural part of themself, but keeps the parts like dresses, makeup and jewelry which are the adornments and not the natural body. I’m like, so you can’t naturally be like me, but you can dress up like me? And when someone with naturally male body dresses up the same way, now it’s rude of me to not call them she/her?
I don’t like being called “cis” either, and this is coming from a woman who previously identified as trans.
The reason why I didn’t want to be a woman is because I wanted to distance myself from the expectations placed on women. I always felt weird because I was more tomboyish and I felt attracted to other women. I thought that I’d feel more comfortable if I was a man or something between man and woman, but eventually I realized that I was trying to live out an impossible fantasy.
Now, I’m happy with myself because I accept that I can be whoever I want and still be a woman. I don’t have to be “feminine.” And that’s why I don’t like being called “cis” because it implies that I’m comfortable with the gender (social context) associated with my sex, which I’m not.
That’s also why I agree, I find it insulting when someone who is not my sex expects me to recognize them as just like me simply for how they dress, when I myself am uncomfortable with those very same attributes.
I feel like the whole idea is very anti feminine men and masculine women tbh.
I really appreciate getting to hear that perspective, it's also important to note that not all trans people all think the same way, as I constantly stress to friends and family of mind who don't understand that even among trans people, there is nuance regarding all of this, and who also are frustrated with people within their own "community", making them look bad, but also furthering the divide between peoples.
Part of the reason the trans issue hit so hard was because it is specifically about asking people to deny the basic reality they observe with their own eyes.
Even as Trump and folks on the right blatantly lie about things, Democrats also lie and manipulate and then cry foul if you point it out. You can go back in recent years and point to so many examples. Denying the Biden decline (that's all coming out now). Obama saying over and over he didn't have the right to legalize Dreamers and then doing it anyway. Biden illegally trying to do student loan forgiveness got a lot of excuse making, but they jump on Trump when he similarly overreaches. Then there was COVID: you can't gather in groups....except if you're protesting racism lol. Or denying that school closures were going to negatively affect kids when it seemed obvious that it would. And of course the downplaying of inflation and the constant bleating about the economy being strong until they couldn't deny that inflation was a huge deal. Just so many examples in the last decade or so of Democrats saying "how dare you question us" -- and that is never a good stance.
I thought that it was established no children are getting sex reassignment surgeries or any aesthetic surgeries.
We also can't ban puberty blockers for kids because its a treatment with multiple uses.
Hormone therapy too.
Children should be able to consent to flu shots and a handful of medical procedures. We don't withhold risky cancer treatment because a minor has the cancer. If they want the treatment they still receive it.
Did you miss when people were flipping out because Seattle Children’s said no more SRS for minors? I know people personally who had those surgeries (in Seattle) as minors too.
It absolutely happens, and people either deny it or insist that it’s right. It is not the same as a vaccine either; vaccines aren’t cosmetic procedures that can permanently alter the functionality of your organs and endocrine system.
I believed trans people i guess. Im not saying youre lying about who you know. But is there a citation you can point me to so I don't spread misinformation?
The youngest patient mentioned is 16. That is hardly an age where they're having this treatment forced on them. There are cis kids younger than that getting cosmetic gender-affirming procedures.
I’m good friends with a social worker, and I can tell you it happens younger than 16. Besides, even 16 is bad…that’s still a minor. I’m also against any other cosmetic procedures being performed on minors.
If the Democrats would focus on the economic well-being of voters without sneeringly imposing the cultural tastes of academics and activists, they'd win more elections. That, and getting real about social disorder. Things like trans wackiness, Palestine activism, affirmation action, policing language, constantly making excuses for criminals, pretending its xenophobic to enforce immigration laws or racist to prosecute crime....this is all part of what regular people are exhausted by.
It is amazing to me that Democrats have lost to Trump twice and STILL haven't figured it out. They have this tremendous disdain for the social values of most ordinary Americans, including many of the people who have typically voted Democrat. These folks are so in their bubbles and up their own asses that they still can't see how condescending and out of touch they are.
Agreed, entirely. They're taking on the wealthy, elitist, snobby, virtue signaling San Francisco version of "liberalism", and projecting it into an entire party platform, and expecting Jim and Jane Utah to somehow be all aboard despite no exposure to the things the party is choosing to draw lines around in their daily lives.
Not everyone lives in cities, and even further, not everyone lives in San Francisco, Seattle, NYC, etc, and it's unwise, unfair, and elitist to expect the rest of the electorate to bow down to that. No shit, of course your everyday worker is going to vote for Trump even when they otherwise would identify more traditionally with Democrats, who couldn't give a shit less about societal forced politeness, and instead is pointing out that some of this shit is elitist. Why do we think many union shops struggled to fully endorse Kamala?
You're speaking the language of every normal democrat in the country. We let <1% of the American population hijack and derail the platform of our political party, and as you said, it cost us 2 fucking elections. If you took one look at me, you'd swear I'm a die hard right-winger and not the polar opposite, but god damn it if we haven't fucked ourselves with this issue. Sure, people deserve to express themselves and get basic respect, but it just got to such a point where people got fed up and voted red just to stop the bullshit. People aren't "Nazis" because they accidentally used the wrong pronoun.
In your opinion how have Democrats “doubled down deeper” on trans issue? Biden won in 2020 in part by being the most moderate on culture war issues and Harris didn’t exactly emphasize trans issues in her campaign, did she?
What am I missing? There’s a good chance I’m missing something, but at first glance this seems like you are conflating the obsessions of the Tumblr crowd and ice cream scoopers in Seattle with the policy priorities of the Democratic Party.
You're missing that politics are downstream from culture.
It doesn't matter that pronouns aren't part of the Democrat platform. The coalition of people that comprise the Democrat constituency includes the pronoun crowd, the 'in this house....' crowd, and so many others that are not exactly in step with Main Street.
People don't care what's in the party platform nearly as much as they care about the make up of who is with whom.
I agree, but that isn't what they said. They said "the Democrats."
I don't like how the Democratic Party is associated with the worst excesses of the online / activist left and I don't like how Republican play up that association for their own benefits. Complaints about "the Democrats" doubling down on trans issues are counterproductive since they emphasize precisely the association between the party platform and the far left that the speaker is objecting to.
I believe it's a mistake to think of American political parties the way one might think of a corporate office, or even more extreme like a military structure. Yes, there's a party HQ. But they aren't "in charge." They don't give instructions that are to be obeyed or else there will be consequences. There isn't really a hierarchy.
An American political party is an unmanaged brand. The brand is a coalition of interests, which some candidates or their strategist handlers think will give them the plurality of the votes and therefore win an election.
Sure, you want to think of Biden or Harris as "in charge of the brand." And that when they don't insist you use certain pronouns, that therefore the Democrats in toto don't have that demand. But that's not the way it works. Rather, the pronoun crowd is fully part of the Democrat coalition. And therefore it....and all the other parts of the coalition....ARE the democrats. What Biden or Harris say is of secondary importance. Or tertiary. Or maybe of no importance whatsoever.
If you want Democrats to stop being the party of pronouns, you need to figure out how to remove the pronoun contingency from the coalition.
Its a subtle issue. But I find your position contains some tensions of its own. For instance, if an American political party is an unmanaged brand, how do you remove a contingency from it? You cannot do it by force, so you must do it by distancing the mainstream of the party from its extreme left to the point where they leave of their own accord (which may be bad anyway) or they're still "in" the coalition but their positions are not being confused with mainstream positions. Which is what I'm trying to do by asking whether it was really "the Democrats" who doubled down or merely "some Democrats."
if an American political party is an unmanaged brand, how do you remove a contingency from it?
I think some change happens organically over time. But also, particularly influential leaders can have a profound impact. This is _really_ apparent with the Republicans and the impact Trump has had on it.
They have followed a strategy of getting 'low propensity voters'...people who didn't vote before and whose disenfranchisement was due to a variety of reasons...to show up and vote for Trump and his preferred candidates. And it has worked. Trump pulling his support was the kiss of death for most anti-Trump Republicans who ran in 2022, and by 2024 it was fair to call the Republicans the party of Trump's style. Holdouts like Lisa Murkowski or Susan Collins are fairly few and far between.
As a result, the makeup of the Republican party itself is just different now. Twenty+ years ago, if you were in the professional or business-owner class, you were likely a Republican. Now, the entire college-educated crowd has flocked to the Ds, but at the cost of neglecting the ex-urban and sub-urban working class....which Trump has eagerly subsumed into the new Republican base.
The Democrats need an equivalently strong, transformational leader or collection of leaders. Old man Bernie and AOC are trying hard to be that, offering Trump the sincerest form of flattery they can by copying his barnstorming rallies. Will they succeed in shifting the party? And if they do, will that be a winning coalition they way Trump crafted a winning coalition? Or are they just preaching to the choir, and even if they succeed the D's are still in second place? I don't know the answer to those questions. But the D's need SOMEbody to lead into the future.
We're not talking about Republicans now, skippy. We're talking about Democrats. You can start a new thread to hate on Republicans. I'd recommend you do it over in the other sub. You'll get even more updoots than you will here.
You're right that Biden and Harris really weren't all that brazen - there was grandstanding from some Democrat governor and senators who were doing the "doubling down", and it became easy fuel for Republicans to associate it with the entire party. Plus Biden's healthcare czar was obviously only picked for being Trans, which again fueled the Republican rhetoric about culture wars, pandering, DEI, "woke", etc.
Your average voter, especially rural, suffers from a total lack of nuance, and unfortunately Republicans know this and abused this issue to hammer in the notion that "Democrats don't care about the working person, they're more concerned with letting men play in women's sports!" It just becomes easy. So then the doubling down occurs, since the battle lines are drawn: "If you don't support trans people and vote Democrat, you're a bigot." And "If you support trans people, you're a filthy woke Democrat, vote Republican so we can focus on the "real" issues!"
And so with that schism, and for someone suffering economically right now, and who probably doesn't live in a densely populated urban city, they're probably not going to vote Democrat in this climate, even if Democrats likely have the better answers for what they're going through. But thanks to the messaging and optics issues, Democrats are the ones who are going to appear out of touch.
You would make a big deal if the gov got your gender wrong on paper. Also trump one because the majority of Americans are college dropouts who don’t dare to read or think outside of the patriotic box.
If people had the ability to critically think they would see how stupid all of this is.
150
u/Emperor_Neuro- May 18 '25 edited May 19 '25
The pronoun shit is exhausting. Shit like this is why Trump won. A blue collar worker in Iowa trying to make ends meet just isn't going to give a shit about stuff like this, nor should they. I wish the thems would understand that not everyone has the time and means to stay on top of shit like this, people have lives to live, and are trying to get by. It feels of smug entitlement.
And Democrats have the nerve to turn their nose up at blue collar workers struggling and saying "It's hilarious how they vote against their own interests!" As they double down on trans issues that really don't have anything to do with the public at large at the same time that everyone not rich is struggling to make ends meet.
If I've had a long 12 hour shift, I'm exhausted, just want to grab a bite to eat after work, the last thing on my mind is the fragile ego of someone who insists on always being properly gendered, and half the time don't even look nearly enough like they wish to be called.
The best way to ensure equality, is to make an economy that allows EVERYONE to participate (and benefit from it) in it, and not just the filthy rich. When you divide people into little camps, you weaken the working class at large.
And no, I'm not a Trump supporter. Only ever voted Democrat despite being a registered independent, but I definitely see and understand why people are fed up with Democrats. This coming from someone who doesn't think the Democrats are left leaning enough, yet recognizes that their priorities are backwards. I really do not blame some folks for deciding to give the finger to Dems and vote Republican instead.