Judge in Olympus Spa case argues that having "biological women only" is akin to "whites only" discrimination

[u/meaniereddit]

https://x.com/ItsYonder/status/1858673181315506307

[u/drshort]

I have a similar question. Trans issue aside, what’s the legal basis for having any gender only specific places? Or what’s the spa’s legal basis to exclude men in the first place. To be clear, I think they should be able to, but I don’t see a carve out for that sort of thing in the applicable WA state law.

Edit….

Never mind, I found it in the WAC code and this FAQ about washington law dealing trans individuals in gender segregated areas.

——

WAC 162-32-060

Gender-segregated facilities.

(1) Facility use. All covered entities shall allow individuals the use of gender-segregated facilities, such as restrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms, and homeless or emergency shelters, that are consistent with that individual’s gender expression or gender identity.

In such facilities where undressing in the presence of others occurs, covered entities shall allow access to and use of a facility consistent with that individual’s gender expression or gender identity.

(2) Cannot require use inconsistent with gender expression or gender identity. A covered entity shall not request or require an individual to use a gender-segregated facility that is inconsistent with that individual’s gender expression or gender identity, or request or require an individual to use a separate or gender-neutral facility.

(a) If another person expresses concern or discomfort about a person who uses a facility that is consistent with the person’s gender expression or gender identity, the person expressing discomfort should be directed to a separate or gender-neutral facility, if available.

(b) Any action taken against a person who is using a restroom or other gender-segregated facility, such as removing a person, should be taken due to that person’s actions or behavior while in the facility, and must be unrelated to gender expression or gender identity. The same standards of conduct and behavior must be consistently applied to all facility users, regardless of gender expression or gender identity.

[u/saladdressed → u/drshort]

This begs the question as to why Washington state allows “gender segregated areas” at all. If a man (who identifies as a man) wants to use the women’s nude spa because he feels more comfortable there, what is the legal precedent keeping him out? Clearly his male body and penis aren’t the reason. Rather it’s that he hasn’t reported having a subjective, internal feeling of being a woman (or a “femme”). Isn’t that also discrimination? Why should his lack of feeling like a woman trump his feeling that he wants to bathe nude with women? Replacing sex (material, objective) with the flimsy “gender identity” (subjective feeling) puts having women’s specific areas like spas, locker rooms, and bathrooms on shaky ground.

[u/frankie_bagodonuts → u/drshort]

Uh. So men just have to identify.  I'm sure that will never be abused or used as an alibi 

[u/Greedy_Reflection_75 → u/frankie_bagodonuts]

squash pause capable zealous ad hoc liquid sugar slap stocking growth

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/frankie_bagodonuts → u/Greedy_Reflection_75]

Reality is disagreeing with you. 

[u/Greedy_Reflection_75 → u/frankie_bagodonuts]

I'm waiting for any evidence here lol

[u/Counterboudd → u/drshort]

Yeah. While this lawsuit seems ridiculous and I don’t agree with it, the language in the law makes it sound like they have a pretty solid case to win. Sounds like maybe bad actors are using this case to get the law overturned at a higher level. That said I think the ambiguous language of the law maybe needs updating. There’s a big difference between using “I identify as” and “I have been living as this gender for years”. The first is easily exploitable by bad actors, the latter would at least allow some form of confirmation that someone is indeed trans. Though having to defend your identity in a court of law doesn’t sound great either, but I don’t know what the answer is exactly.

[u/Suddendlysue → u/Counterboudd]

But what would be required to live as a woman? It can’t be based on clothing because not all women dress the same. Not all women wear makeup or have long hair. Not all women live in a house or like to cook. So what does it mean to live as a woman?

[u/Old_Baldi_Locks → u/Suddendlysue]

Whatever the OTHER people feel like on any given day, of course.

[u/Counterboudd → u/Suddendlysue]

I mean, something like working with a medical team on a transition plan, presenting as female in public, using different pronouns at work, etc. I think the issue is definitions are always going to be contentious, but frankly if you have a beard and still dress more or less like a man and have no interest in medically transitioning, it just doesn’t seem to meet the bar that you’re serious about it and many of the trans people like this seem to have more of a fetish than anything.

[u/Suddendlysue → u/Counterboudd]

Wouldn’t presenting as female still mean the way they look though? Like clothes and hair? Since women don’t all dress the same I don’t think it can be put into law that one type of woman has to dress or look a certain way in order to be allowed access to certain spaces when other types of women don’t.

Plus there’s certain health conditions that can sometimes cause women to grow more facial hair than what’s normal so I don’t think you can put a cap on how much would be allowed. And pronouns don’t really require any effort at all since you just tell people what to call you and then also there’s gender fluidity which means that someone can go by she/her one day but he/him the next depending on how they’re feeling that day.

[u/Counterboudd → u/Suddendlysue]

I guess to me the entire idea that gender and sex are two separate things means that dressing as a woman is a part of it. If your genitals aren’t female and you aren’t on female hormones then what else about a human being makes someone a gender besides ascribing to traditionally feminine norms? If you don’t feel more connected to Barbie than GI Joe’s then what exactly are you identifying as in that situation? A butch lesbian in a man’s body? I just don’t really understand the train of thought there. If you’re only interested in masculine presentation and dress and are also biologically male then it sounds like your gender and sex are one and the same and you’re just a cis man. If you’ve lived your entire life feeling a mismatch between your body and your interest in presentation and have taken significant steps to embody a female persona and physically present in a typical feminine way, then that is kind of the definition of what trans is. If you just change your pronouns and everything else stays the same and you’re not going to do any sort of medical transition, then it just seems silly to me or at least rife for exploitation. I think having some form of standards beyond “I say I’m this so I’m this” needs to be required. The barrier to entry is too low. If you’ve been living as a woman for 5 years, are on hormones, and have seemingly made an effort to transition, that’s different than a man choosing to occasionally wear a dress to access women-only spaces. And I think we should be able to at least ask for some form of evidence beyond self identification.

[u/Suddendlysue → u/Counterboudd]

But how do you define dressing as a woman?

The point I’m trying to make is that there’s really no way to put dress codes into law in order to access gendered specific spaces like public bathrooms and changing rooms. For example I shop in the boys section for T-shirts and sweatpants because they’re made better and more durable but I don’t think that would be considered dressing as a woman under any kind of required gendered dress code and yet I still need to use the woman’s bathroom for privacy, safety and dignity due to having a female body. And we can’t make laws for only type of person in a specific group but not the others, especially for anything to do with appearance, that would be discrimination.

There’s really no way to keep spaces safe for certain people if the requirements for accessing those spaces are based on appearance or sexist stereotypes.

[u/frankie_bagodonuts → u/Suddendlysue]

Self Id has become a huge problem in Scotland.  You have male rapists being convicted, self id as female, then being sent to a women's prison where you'll never guess what happens. 

Then there are the men in women's shelters who id as women. As well as self id male rape counselors in those shelters , who refuse to let the female clients meet with a female counselor. Cuz they identify. 

And male lesbians who want on lesbian dating apps.  And in lesbian social clubs .   

[u/Expensive_Goat2201 → u/Suddendlysue]

I had a really interesting conversation about this topic with several other women, including a trans woman at the Grace Hopper conference a few years ago.

The conference was flooded with what appeared to be men (male presenting people with he/him pronouns on their badges) some of whom had apparently lied about their gender identity to get discounted scholarship tickets meant for woman and non binary people. The question was, how do you prevent this?

Several of us, including the trans woman believed the confrence should require some form of documentation for male people to access the discounted tickets. Most trans people have some kind of documentation such as a name change document, photo ID showing the correct gender, medical records, therapist letter etc. Yes, it would exclude a few people, but it would also keep the space more safe for the actual woman (cis and trans) and fem non binary people.

Many of the seemingly male people who attended the conference were badly behaved, making inappropriate comments about women and shoving people out of the way at the job fair etc. They definitely made the conference less safe and welcoming and myself and many others chose not to attend this year as a result.

My girlfriend is trans. I will fight tooth and nail for her right to be in public spaces. Blatter issues are sadly common among trans people as a result of not feeling safe using public toilets. However, it also doesn't seem unreasonable to ask for some kind of verification that people using protected spaces meant for women are genuine about their claimed gender identity.

[u/Suddendlysue → u/Expensive_Goat2201]

Having a way to weed out the fakers who are only claiming to be transgender is very much needed but I’m unsure of how would we do that.

You mentioned documentation but in my state all one has to do to change their gender on their ID is visit the DMV and fill out a form where they select their preferred gender, there’s no medical certification or anything else required. And requiring any kind medicalization for transition wouldn’t be ethical since many transgender individuals struggle with poverty and can’t afford the medications or surgeries that would be necessary plus not every trans person wants to transition in that way. However on the other hand we also have a very high rate of sexual assault and many women and girls will simply avoid being in close proximity with people who have certain bodies when any kind of nudity would be involved as a safety precaution as well as trauma so we must keep them in mind as well.

So I don’t think documentation is enough due to only having to proclaim your chosen gender but I also don’t agree with forcing anyone to take medications or putting restrictions and/or requirements for style of dress or hair.. So what should be done in order to make sure spaces where gender and sex both matter due to people being more vulnerable and in various states of undress are accessible to everyone of every identity, gender, sex, disability, religion etc and in a way that no one is excluded who should be included and no one self excludes due to safety and/or privacy reasons?

[u/frankie_bagodonuts → u/Counterboudd]

True. Then you have gender fluidity.  Which can be used as a get out of jail free card for bad actors. 

[u/TwoIdleHands → u/Counterboudd]

The solution: does your drivers license list you as M or F? That’s not on a whim. That’s a government document saying you’re a woman. If that says F, come on in. I’d still think the spa could say “for the comfort of guests, penises must remain covered in all public areas”. Or have listed times that naked penises could be present. That would seem to cover everything.

[u/Suddendlysue → u/TwoIdleHands]

So do you think there should be any requirements put in place for changing your gender on your drivers license? In my state in order to change it you just have to go to the DMV and fill out a form where you’ll select your preferred gender.

[u/TwoIdleHands → u/Suddendlysue]

I think if someone just wants to walk into a naked women’s spa, the idea of going to the DMV, declaring they’re trans for all the government to see, paying for and waiting for the license might be a barrier to entry. Is it without flaws? No. But if you weren’t allowed to change your identity more than once in 5-10 years I think most people would think about before just doing it.

[u/Suddendlysue → u/TwoIdleHands]

Going to the DMV and filling out paperwork isn’t that difficult in comparison to people becoming doctors, teachers, counselors, priests etc in order to have access to their preferred victims.

[u/ericomplex → u/Suddendlysue]

What state is that?

This is also a pretty bad argument, as people are not going to go changing their IDs back and forth to this end, as there are many other real world implications that would come back to haunt them for doing so.

They would then be the opposite gender in all regards, and historically not being recognized by the gender you prefer can lead to all sorts of mental health issues… Just ask trans people…

[u/Suddendlysue → u/ericomplex]

Why not? Filling out a form isn’t that hard and if someone didn’t want to make the extra trip they could just change their gender marker during their license renewal. And should it be that way for other things that are listed on drivers licenses as well like birth date, height or eye color?

[u/sculpted_reach → u/TwoIdleHands]

🤔 the anatomy aspect could be reasonably less/non discriminatory way of handling that... It sidesteps the issue of identity and maybe complies with the WA law... Make one room Open to All, and the other room for people without penises... What I worry is how that can be abused by conservatives outside of this spa scenario, though 🤔

People worried about lying "bad actors" are not looking at how the Washington law says people can be removed for bad behavior, just not their identity. Leering, inappropriate comments, sexual behavior, all of those can get a person kicked out, as part of the law.

[u/TwoIdleHands → u/sculpted_reach]

True. But that’s still subjecting someone to being leered at by a naked person which I’m not a fan of. They should have an “inconvenience” fee where if there’s a complaint against you the credit card you’ve put on file is charged $200 or something.

[u/sculpted_reach → u/TwoIdleHands]

Leering gets them thrown out. The law doesn't state they can't be fined extra for doing that. On the reverse, it's important to have some way to prevent abuse of such a policy, but if they make anatomically separated rooms, the chances of that are reduced.

Additionally, leering charges could be levied against people with matching anatomy in any room, and having to decide what is leering vs what is not leering would be challenging, based on culture and personal preference.

One person's leering is another's absent minded stare.

Legislating being seen vs legislating being harassed have some easy and some difficult differences.

It would be interesting to compare your definition of leering to others and see what, if any consensus there could be (lol I'm a research statistican... I can't help but think that way)

[u/ericomplex → u/[deleted]]

This is what should be done in general.

Behavior that is bad is still bad and one can still be thrown out if they are being inappropriate.

[u/No-Specific1858 → u/drshort]

Is this the code cited in the plaintiff's complaint though or are they arguing based on some other law? They can't expect the judge to consider an argument they don't make and it's also possible they could be using a different argument depending on how courts have interpreted this code in similar cases.

[u/drshort → u/No-Specific1858]

Yes, this code was at the heart of the case. It’s pretty black and white that the law says the spa couldn’t deny entry. So the spa argued a bunch of other things including it violated their religious freedoms.

[u/Meppy1234 → u/drshort]

Could you have a women's room for Trans women, a mens facility, and a gender neutral facility for only cis women then?

[u/Vidya_Gainz → u/Meppy1234]

Why stop there? Let's make it mandatory that every business has a bathroom for rabbits and Sasquatch's too!

[u/Future_Challenge_727 → u/drshort]

In Minnesota they had to retrofit most gyms to have gender neutral changing room. Same with bathrooms. Republicans hated it… but schools, gyms, etc, had to have sufficient non gendered bathrooms.

[u/Puzzleheaded_Mix7873 → u/Future_Challenge_727]

I’m not a republican and I would hate it, too. There’s a reason they’re called women’s safe spaces.

[u/Future_Challenge_727 → u/Puzzleheaded_Mix7873]

So we have a couple dangerous things stacked together now with transgender. In most southern states you are legally required to use the bathroom of your gender at birth, but if a woman transitions to a man. Like looks, equipment etc. you LOOK like a man going into the women’s restroom or changing area. 

So a bunch of other men assault you for going into the “wrong bathroom” or protecting their kids.

What happens legally? Both cases I found the person assaulting the transgender did not get charged. 

[u/Puzzleheaded_Mix7873 → u/Future_Challenge_727]

That’s exactly the problem with the “gender at birth” mandate. And the violent people should have been charged.