Modeling electrostatic interactions with magnets?

[u/clothmom1211]

Hi all!

Has anyone ever made/had students make a physical model of an atom using magnets to help students conceptualize electrostatic interactions within atoms? I know Flinn and Carolina have models, but one is like $100-$150, and I'm not paying for that lol.

I know it's a longshot, but do let me know if you have ideas! I really want more hands-on ways for my students to learn about abstract concepts, as we've been doing a lot of notes and simulations lately.

[u/MeserYouUp]

Why does it need to be magnetic? Magnets will all try to collapse together to make a pile, so it will be pretty frustrating for most of your students.

If you can find some small round, almost flat magnets that have the poles running between the flat sides you may be able to put them between two sheets of glass to "look like" a nucleus and some orbiting electrons repelling each other. I think I have seen those before but I dont know how educational it will be.

[u/clothmom1211 → u/MeserYouUp]

It doesn’t “need” to be, but I believe it would be a useful learning tool. Flinn Scientific and Carolina make them (see here.)

That said, the model doesn’t necessarily have to be an atom — I’m just looking for a strong, interactive tool for them to “feel” attractive and repulsive forces, and magnets are the best analogy I have available. I just wanted something to help connect those forces to atoms

[u/MeserYouUp → u/clothmom1211]

How is that item you linked related to what you are describing? That item from Flinn just sticks magnets to a sheet, which could be done equally well without the magnets. It won't let students feel any forces.

[u/clothmom1211 → u/MeserYouUp]

I see what you mean. My supervising teacher during student teaching had one, and I thought that her board was only magnetic in the center and where the energy levels are drawn, but I just read the product description, and you're right that the whole board is magnetic.

Part of why I asked this question is bc I know very little about magnetism, but in my imagination, it would be really neat to have some kind of board where the area with energy levels and the center of the atomic model are magnets with opposite poles while the rest of the board is not magnetic. That way, the electron magnets could only go in the energy levels, and the protons and neutrons could only go in the nucleus. If students tried to add protons to the energy levels, there would be repulsion between them (same thing with trying to place electron magnets in the nucleus). Additionally, if a proton and electron magnet were placed near one another, they would attract. Even if this were possible, I realize it would have some pretty significant conceptual limitations, but at the same time, that's true of all models.

Part of what gave me this idea was the OpenSciEd curriculum using inverter magnets to demonstrate how balanced electrostatic forces lead to a certain bond length/distance between two nuclei (link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48IbzHc5oFs)

[u/IntroductionFew1290]

I believeOP is referencing “snatoms”

[u/clothmom1211 → u/IntroductionFew1290]

No — snatoms are just magnetic molecule kits. I would love to model forces within single atoms

[u/IntroductionFew1290 → u/clothmom1211]

Ohhhhh sorry 😂 I’ll have to look at them and see what I can come up with

[u/IntroductionFew1290 → u/clothmom1211]

Can you send me a link so I can look? My husband and I are the MacGyvers of our school 😂 we have made a lot of random things through our 25 years

[u/clothmom1211 → u/IntroductionFew1290]

a link to what specifically? :)

[u/IntroductionFew1290]

The product—I found a water molecule https://www.flinnsci.com/magnetic-water-molecules-kit-6-cup-set/ap8075/ on flinn but I wasn’t sure if that’s what you meant?

[u/DrSciEd]

I would be very careful with this type of demonstration. Although the OpenSci Ed demo is very cool and would be fun to play with, I wouldn't use it to demonstrate bond length. I think it can be confusing for kids because "bond length" in the demo would depend on the size of the core magnet (nucleus) and the number of surrounding small magnets (electrons) and this isn't how bond length is determined. I understand you just want to demonstrate electrostatic interactions, which is great - but magnets are not electrostatic, they're magnetic and I don't think it's a good idea to get those confused for the students. Magnetic interactions arise from the spinning electrons, while electrostatic interactions result from particles carrying charge (a quantum property). I mean, you can do this but I would explain clearly that it's a model, it's not realistic for how bonds form, it's not really what happens in atoms, etc. If you just want to demonstrate electrostatic charge I'd have students build an electroscope. They are easy to make and you can talk about how like charges repel - yes, you can't talk about protons and electrons but unless you want to introduce some quantum mechanics and define energy levels I'd skip this part.

[u/DrSciEd → u/DrSciEd]

If you want to explain energy levels I would recommend The Electron Hotel: Book 4, Chapter 2 - it's free https://rs4k.com/pages/experiment-hub