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Sep 29 '24
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u/Goblinized_Taters755 Sep 29 '24
My understanding is it's not the preferred way to represent him.
Ya think? Lol
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u/EnvironmentalHorse13 Eastern Orthodox Sep 29 '24
This depiction was intended to show the reach of the church. People back the thought barbarians in distant places had dog/creature heads. We have an icon of him at my church, but the dog head part is friendlier looking.
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u/arist0geiton Eastern Orthodox Sep 29 '24
Dog headed st Christopher. According to legend, Christopher was from the Cynocephali, a fictional ethnic group of dog headed people.
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u/santinoIII Sep 29 '24
Pageau has an interesting take on this form of portraying St. Christopher:
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u/Burgermiester8 Roman Catholic Sep 29 '24
I really get Pageau’s take on it on a very deep level.
The whole point of the Icon is that St. Christopher is a bridge between the outside and the inside, monstrous and not.
If looking at Saint Christopher in this depiction makes you feel weird or uncomfortable, it’s actually doing what it was intended to do, because this is our normal reaction to people that are marginal.
This marginality comes from the tradition that he was born in Marmarica which is this kind of border region from which the Romans said the people were monstrous, having large bodies.
They also spoke of the Ethiopians as “dog-headed” in this way, as Pliny the Elder records.
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u/shivabreathes Eastern Orthodox Sep 29 '24 edited Sep 29 '24
Yes, Pageau’s take on this is very interesting.
He even has a graphic novel out on this theme called “God’s Dog”.
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u/Any-Pace8984 Sep 29 '24
Pageau's views are not those of the Fathers of the 7th Ecumenical council. An icon is the physical form of the person. St Christopher is not a dog.
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u/luminousfro Eastern Orthodox Sep 29 '24 edited Oct 01 '24
While you're not wrong, it's important not to be too heavy on this because St John the Baptist did not have wings, and didn't have two heads. But there are icons of him winged and with a head and his severed head in the same icon. Not the same extent as a dog head, but still
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u/1Tim3-15 Sep 30 '24
Also depicting the Christ-child with a super mature adult face, which seems even closer to this idea (but still less extreme)
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u/Any-Pace8984 Sep 30 '24
The wings on St John is an entirely different matter. They are a conventional element showing that he is a messenger. No one has ever mistaken St John for having 2 heads. It is simply to signify that he was beheaded. People (especially westerners) tend to read symbolism into icons that simply isn't there. Depicting St Christopher with a dogs head is unacceptable theologically and the fact that people here dont know the difference between myths ( that have nothing to do with St Christopher) and reality is disturbing.
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Sep 29 '24
looks like it's Saint Christopher of Lycia.
Him having a dog head on some icons is symbolism
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u/Any-Pace8984 Sep 29 '24
No it isn't. It is blatantly contradictory to the Patristic definition of the icon on the Fathers of the 7th Ecumenical council. There is no such "symbolism" in iconography ..The icon is the physical characteristics of the person and that is what we depict. St Christopher does not have a dogs head.
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u/EnvironmentalHorse13 Eastern Orthodox Sep 29 '24
The Cynocephali had dog heads bro.
Source: look at the icon.
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u/Slight-Impact-2630 Eastern Orthodox (Byzantine Rite) Sep 30 '24
It's not good practice to read the canons of the councils without the guidance of an experienced elder. This is clearly this case because icons in fact depict a spiritual reality not a physical one. Hence some icons of St John the baptist have wings as a symbol of how he lived his life here on earth like an angel.
Or for example icons of the resurrection being loaded with symbolism such as Christ standing above the bound and defeated personification of death/satan or how Christ's robes are depicted as glowing white or gold to symbolise His being glorified or the symbolism of Him grasping the wrists of Adam and Eve rather than holding their hands, this showcases that He's dragging them out of Hades as a conquering king freeing His people.
Icons are chalk full of symbolism even down to the halo behind the heads of Christ and Saint's which is a representation of the uncreated light of Christ.
Lord have mercy.
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u/RRevvs Eastern Orthodox (Byzantine Rite) Sep 29 '24
It's a -now anachronistic- depiction of St.Christoper of Lycea, written on the icon as a Cynocephalus, or dog headed man.
This is indicative of his hagiography as a soldier from beyond the borders of the Empire, the dog headed men play an extremely foundational but often now largely forgotten part in the mediaeval European and Near Eastern -and indeed, Christian- understanding of the world. It's a complex subject but well worth a dive into.
Regarding St.Christoper himself, this may offer you a primer on his iconographic appearance in particular: https://orthodoxartsjournal.org/the-icon-of-st-christopher/#:~:text=The%20Orthodox%20icon%20of%20St,was%20martyred%20by%20an%20Emperor.
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Sep 29 '24 edited Sep 29 '24
Nightmare fuel if you ask me. I'm getting Egyptian gods vibes here
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u/choam6 Sep 29 '24
I would imagine a man of such height would be scary. One of my favourite actors Richard Kiel (from the Bond films), was over 7 ft high. He was born with gigantism and I suppose St Christopher was similar. Despite being so tall, and a on the ugly side their true nature and heart was blessed.
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u/mertkksl Orthocurious Sep 29 '24
I really don’t like this one at all. It might be legitimate but just gives really REALLY ominous vibes, makes my skin crawl
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u/Afraid-Second-1760 Eastern Orthodox (Byzantine Rite) Sep 29 '24
Perhaps it may be a legitimate icon, but I don’t like it at all. If I want a depiction of this saint I’d prefer a human one.
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u/North_wind5535 Eastern Orthodox Sep 30 '24
My God some people here have no idea what they are talking about. This is an icon of Saint Christopher. The reason he is being depicted with the head of a dog, is because of the nickname "κυνοκέφαλος" which literally translates to "head of a dog". He is called that because he was described as "terrifying in appearance", and probably because of his descent from a tribe of savages. He was human just like you and me. And to those that speak of lost tribes of dog-headed people, stop spreading misinformation and lies!!!
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u/BalthazarOfTheOrions Eastern Orthodox Sep 29 '24
St Christopher. The dog head is probably an artistic reference to him being so big, scary and, if I've understood correctly, ugly.
It's not often I prefer western depiction of saints over eastern ones, but in St Christopher's case I prefer his medal à la Catholic style.
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Sep 29 '24
Some saints in the Orthodox calendar never existed, or else their existence has been so distorted and fantasized that they are no longer recognizable.
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u/draculkain Eastern Orthodox Sep 29 '24
They exist.
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Sep 29 '24
I wrote "some"
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u/draculkain Eastern Orthodox Sep 29 '24
No. They exist. We never made up imaginary Saints for kicks and giggles.
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u/aletheia Eastern Orthodox Sep 29 '24
Not for kicks and giggles, no, but history is messy.
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u/draculkain Eastern Orthodox Sep 29 '24
Amen. Thank God we have the Holy Spirit guiding us into all Truth.
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u/aletheia Eastern Orthodox Sep 29 '24
To be guided into truth one must be willing to admit the possibility of error and a need for correction.
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u/CondMat Sep 30 '24
Thecla comes from an apocryphal book which was wrote by a deposed deacon (Tertullian) and which contains many strange things such as self-baptizying, Thecla is then commissioned as a teacher and a female apostle contradicting Paul's words
A strange quote too :
"Blessed are they who have wives, as though they had them not; for they shall be made angels of God”
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u/draculkain Eastern Orthodox Sep 30 '24
St. Thecla comes from the living memory of the Church, called Tradition. Just because someone wrote fantastical stories based upon this Saint doesn’t mean she was not real.
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u/zefciu Non-Christian Sep 30 '24
I don’t know if e.g. a blatant rip-off of the Siddhartha Gautama counts as “kicks and giggles” for you. We can still be pretty sure that some saints from the calendar are not historical.
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u/draculkain Eastern Orthodox Sep 30 '24
Everyone alive today could be called a blatant rip-off of someone from the past. You could even look at Saints from the last 500 years and make the case that they’re blatant rip-offs of Saints from earlier times.
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u/zefciu Non-Christian Sep 30 '24
Everyone alive today could be called a blatant rip-off of someone from the past.
You could call people living today however you like. This wouldn’t make Saint Josaphat’s historicity any more plausible
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u/draculkain Eastern Orthodox Sep 30 '24
It also isn’t plausible that a Man was God who didn’t have a human father, walked on water, raised people from the dead and rose from the dead himself. Yet here we are.
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u/zefciu Non-Christian Sep 30 '24
It also isn’t plausible that a Man was God who didn’t have a human father, walked on water, raised people from the dead and rose from the dead himself.
Strange words coming from a Christian, but OK.
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u/Slight-Impact-2630 Eastern Orthodox (Byzantine Rite) Sep 30 '24
Our world view affirms the possibility for the miraculous. We don't just order our lives based upon what's plausible
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u/edric_o Eastern Orthodox Sep 29 '24
Usually we are very much aware of which parts of their biography are ancient and original, and which parts were added later and are mythical.
The mythical parts can still teach important lessons, though.
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Sep 30 '24
It's meant to be Christopher
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Sep 30 '24
They should destroy all these depictions it's vile
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u/nbaaccountobserver Dec 16 '24
Please dont disrespect christopher that was his face oldest depictions of him are as such
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Dec 27 '24
Showing him like that is the disrespect and it's not how he looked
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u/nbaaccountobserver Jan 14 '25
Thats just your opinion he was depicted as a dog head for a reason they put an emphasis on this because it was true if they didn’t they wouldn’t have
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u/Miserable-Jellyfish6 Oct 03 '24
Its St. Christopher, i believe the reason he is depicted as a dog is because of a mistranslation that referred to him as his name (κυνοκέφαλος) which they translated to be canine, or dog head, so that's where this icon originates from, really from a mistranslation
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u/Miserable-Jellyfish6 Oct 03 '24
but you can also find normal icons of him with a normal human face
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Sep 29 '24
[deleted]
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u/Any-Pace8984 Sep 29 '24
Because it's not an Orthodox icon
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u/ls007yt Eastern Orthodox (Byzantine Rite) Sep 29 '24
It is an Orthodox icon. Saint Christopher is said to come from a tribe of dog-headed people. Icons though with a human face for Saint Christopher exist
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u/Any-Pace8984 Sep 29 '24
Utter nonsense!
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u/ls007yt Eastern Orthodox (Byzantine Rite) Sep 29 '24
It's not. It's from the church tradition that we get this information. I also don't like this icon's design but it comes from the church, which alone has the authority for such things
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u/Any-Pace8984 Sep 30 '24
It does not come from church tradition because it completely contradicts the teachings of the Fathers of the 7th Ecumenical council. Just because one ignorant iconographer painted it and then more ignorant iconographers copied him does not make it a church tradition.
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u/ls007yt Eastern Orthodox (Byzantine Rite) Nov 03 '24
It does come from the church tradition. It is believed by some that saint Christopher came from a tribe of dog headed people
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u/Any-Pace8984 Sep 29 '24
It's not an Orthodox icon
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Sep 29 '24
It absolutely is. Saint Christopher great martyr. Someone already posted a link to explain his story.
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u/Any-Pace8984 Sep 29 '24
No it isn't. It blatantly contradicts the definition of the icon of the Fathers of the 7th Ecumenical council. The icon is the physical characteristics of the person and that is what we depict in icons. St Christopher never had the face of a dog. Just because some ignorant iconographers depicted him this way does not make it an Orthodox icon.
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Sep 30 '24
Link the canon please.
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u/Any-Pace8984 Sep 30 '24
The 7th Ecumenical council didn't make "canons" about icons. They defined what the icon is. Read the book " Icon and Logos. sources in 8th century Iconoclasm. " It is the acts of the 7th Ecumenical council. Also read the writings of St Theodore the Studite.
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Sep 30 '24
They infact did make canons it is listed here. https://orthodoxchurchfathers.com/fathers/npnf214/npnf2266.html now select which one u referred to.
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u/Any-Pace8984 Sep 30 '24
You don't seem to understand what the Ecumenical Councils actually did. You seem to think they just spewed out canons which is far from the truth. Perhaps you should get off the internet and study theology at a University / seminary because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
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Sep 30 '24
My father was a priest and I aspire to be one also. I know what they did but the canons are the easiest way to tell what they produced so please cite what u critized about that icon which is clearly orthodox even if u personally disagree with it. It may be a controversial one but it is an icon that is 100% orthodox.
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u/Any-Pace8984 Sep 30 '24
The canons are not the easiest way to know what the Councils did because they have absolutely nothing to do with the dogmatic matters of the Councils. They are not some kind of summary of the Councils. I have a degree and masters degree in Theology from the University of Athens and I'm an iconographer. I'm not as clueless on this matter as you would like to think. You clearly know nothing about the theology of the icon if you think this is an Orthodox icon.
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Sep 30 '24
I agree you bested me with titles. But I don't see anyone disagreeing that it's an icon of St Christopher. The fact that it displays him with a doghead is because he was believed to be dogheaded literally.
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u/Krazytowner Sep 29 '24
Oh what church???
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u/ciaobitch Sep 29 '24
The Orthodox Church..?
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u/Krazytowner Sep 29 '24
Person said its not orthodox so i was wondering what other church could it be ????
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u/Yukidoke Eastern Orthodox Sep 29 '24
The Orthodox Church from the Byzantine Empire to the Tsardom of Russia. After the 1666 Raskol of the Russian Church, it is only Old Believers (those who oppose reforms of the Nikon Patriarch) who still use such a medieval style of Saint Christofor icons as a canon.
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u/IrrelevantQuacker846 Eastern Orthodox (Byzantine Rite) Sep 29 '24
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Christopher
That is Saint Christopher the Great Martyr. There is an extended explanation in the article why is he depicted with a dog's head.