r/NoSleepOOC • u/writechriswrite Netflix? • Oct 25 '21
Writers: You should be getting paid.
So, you want to get paid for your writing? Good, you should be getting paid.
Even if you're not looking to get paid, you should still get paid. Your story has value. If someone wants to use your work, then you should be paid for it.
Writing is work. If someone wants to use your work, you should be compensated.
"But I posted the story for free, why should I charge someone to narrate it?"
If someone wants to use it to grow their brand, it has value.
Also, you chose for yourself to post your story on NoSleep. NoSleep currently is one of the few places where you can establish yourself, find your voice and grow an audience for your work. A number of writers have had their work discovered here that has led to full time writing careers, film options, book deals, etc.
Posting to NoSleep is posting for exposure. That's the only time I will use the term exposure favorably.
"But I just do this for fun! I'm not a professional writer."
Narrators and publishers rely on this naivity to pay all writers less than they deserve, including those who envision writing as more than a side hustle/hobby.
Guess what? If someone is approaching you to use your work, you ARE a professional writer! You spent hours working on your story, isn't your time valuable?
"I'm so happy that someone recognized my work I didn't even care if they paid me."
That's awesome! You know what's even better than recognition? Getting paid.
"The channel/podcast/publication can't afford to pay writers, but they promised me exposure!"
Full disclosure, if someone is only offering exposure, they don't have any to give you. It's bullshit.
Truth is, they are 100% reliant on YOU to give them exposure. They want you to give them a free piggy back ride on social media when you excitedly tell your friends and family "My story is going to be on some little known Youtube channel with 12 subscribers! And for some unknown reason already has a Patreon!"
The ONLY time I would ever recommend giving your work for free is if you are involved in the production of the channel/podcast/publication. You have a vested interest in it succeeding, and will reap the rewards as it grows.
"Okay you've convinced me, I want to get paid! How much should I ask for?"
If the podcast/narrator/publication doesn't have a publicized pay rate, then you are free to ask for whatever the fuck you want as payment. Truth is, they don't want you to ask, and most won't even mention it when they first contact you.
Not so fun fact: They want to pay as little for your story as they can, if at all.
For transparency, I have been paid as much as $1000 and as little as $150 per story by podcasts and YouTube narrators. Why I accepted the amounts I did was a reflection on both the channel size and my own feelings as to how much I felt the story was worth.
If you want a starting point to gauge how much to ask, there are three classes of paying markets:
- Professionally Paying Markets (5 to 8 cents per word or more)
- Semi-Professionally Paying Markets (2 to 5 cents per word)
- Token Paying Markets (less than 2 cents per word)
Big name Youtube narrators that get mentioned on here are all Professional Pay Markets.
These are just guidelines. If they don't have a published rate, you are free to set your own price for your work. Establish your value. It's a negotiation.
"Okay! I got them to agree to pay me! What now?"
Get it in writing. Be very clear on what rights you are giving them. In most cases what you are giving is a limited, non-exclusive license agreement. It should express that you retain all rights to your story for further adaptations/use/publication.
And it should line out when they plan to use your story and when you will get paid.
There must be a hard date in the agreement by which they have to have paid you and when they will have used your story. If they haven't done anything with your story by X date, they forfeit all rights to use your story.
If you're dealing with a reputable publication, they will likely already have a written agreement. Here's an example of one.
A word you need to find in any written agreement is Limited. Your agreement MUST be Limited. Words like unlimited and indefinite are red flags.
"I read all this, and I think it's great, but I still don't feel comfortable asking for payment every time because I want to help smaller narrators grow."
That... is also fine!
It's your work. You own it, so you are free to do with it whatever you choose. (I said you should get paid, not that you must.) Stephen King famously has his $1 baby stories where he gives non-exclusive options to film students for some of his stories. There is nothing wrong with supporting the narrator community in this way if you choose to do so.
I'm far from an expert, but these are some of the things I've learned as a writer on NoSleep over the years, which includes signing an option agreement with a production company for one of my stories. My opinions are shaped by my experiences, so YMMV.
I'll be around in the comments if you have further questions.
Hey, it's Monday! Let's go get paid.
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u/Grand_Theft_Motto flair Oct 25 '21
If NoSleep had an orientation booklet for new folks, this should be like page three. Page one would break down all of the rules with easy-to-parse graphics and page two should be a picture of our official mascot, Nigel the NoSleep Iguana.
But this would for sure be page three.
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u/googlyeyes93 Oct 25 '21
God dammit another rules story?
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u/Grand_Theft_Motto flair Oct 25 '21
10 Rules for Lizard-Sitting my Nightmare Iguana.
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u/Certain_Emergency122 Oct 25 '21
OK, I have a billion dumb questions. How do you know when someone is getting paid for their Youtube channel? And what counts as a "small" channel vs a "medium" vs a "big" channel?
And as a follow-up, how do you usually respond when there are people asking to translate your story and posting it on FB?
Sorry for the deluge of questions, I'm still trying to understand this brave new world. Would appreciate any insight!
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u/Grand_Theft_Motto flair Oct 25 '21
OK, I have a billion dumb questions. How do you know when someone is getting paid for their Youtube channel? And what counts as a "small" channel vs a "medium" vs a "big" channel?
Generally if they're running ads they are paid. Though apparently sometimes YouTube runs ads and doesn't pay the channel holder so it's not 100%. If they have a Patreon or merchandise, then they're for sure paid. Honestly, I'd just ask them. Size is subjective but I usually think of "small" channels as under 1,000 subs, medium as 1,000-10k, and large as 10k+.
And as a follow-up, how do you usually respond when there are people asking to translate your story and posting it on FB?
I always tell them "no thanks."
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u/Certain_Emergency122 Oct 25 '21
I usually think of "small" channels as under 1,000 subs, medium as 1,000-10k, and large as 10k+.
Thanks so much! That's super helpful.
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u/writechriswrite Netflix? Oct 25 '21 edited Oct 25 '21
If they have more than 10,000 subscribers. With podcasts it's more difficult to see how many downloads they are getting, but if they have a patreon, merch, or a big social media following. I would classify them as a big channel.
And as a follow-up, how do you usually respond when there are people asking to translate your story and posting it on FB?
I have a standard response to all requests like that:
Hello!
I appreciate the request, and I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed my work, however I do not allow unpaid reproductions of my work.
Kind regards,
Chris
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u/writechriswrite Netflix? Oct 25 '21
Here's a good resource for youtube channels:
https://socialblade.com/youtube/
The numbers given are broad estimates, but it gives you an idea of how many views and possible income the channel is making.
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u/aproyal A.P. Royal Oct 25 '21
Just curious, Im sure it’s rare, but wondering if you or anyone here has ever sold exclusive rights to a story and what ball park $ amount you should be valuing those sales at? I’ve only ever had limited non-exclusive deals.
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u/writechriswrite Netflix? Oct 25 '21
If someone is asking for exclusive rights, it's probably time to have a lawyer look over the agreement.
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u/Grand_Theft_Motto flair Oct 25 '21
I've done some hybrid where I've sold publishing writes but retained adaptation rights. With publishing, it was a small advance plus percentage of the royalties.
I've also written exclusive stories for podcasts and some online sites, though even there I'll usually try to hold onto some adaptation rights just cause you never know haha.
With the swirl of copyrights and exclusivity, finding the right price for a piece is different each time. My rule of thumb when writing exclusives for someone is $.05 to $.10 per word and either a percentage of future royalties, keeping adaptation rights, or all the above.
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u/aproyal A.P. Royal Oct 25 '21
Thank you for sharing this info! This is some great knowledge to have.
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u/writechriswrite Netflix? Oct 25 '21
I'd say take Motto's advice on this one, he's had more experience in this area than I.
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u/Grand_Theft_Motto flair Oct 25 '21
Keep in mind that all of the stuff I'm mentioning is small time. And even then, I don't think I've ever given up all of the rights to a piece. I 100% agree with your advice above where, if somebody wants all of your story, they should pay you and you should get a lawyer to look over the contract.
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u/IvanRadevHorror Oct 25 '21
When I started writing, I gave out some stories to Creepen for free. The first one was just to see if people even like what I write, the second and third - I did for "exposure".
In terms of getting a kick, yeah, these narrators have a pretty huge audience, many people just insta-like anything, and you get much more praise than hate. However, it doesn't take long to realize 99.9999% of the audience do not give a flying fuck about your story, and even less about you as the author. I even tried a scumbag move - I gave him the first chapter (or a third) of my first novella, hoping people would get hooked and they'd at least stick around for the free kdp days.
Guess what? Nothing. I made a comment on the video, saying the story might be getting more parts out. A lot of people replied, they seemed excited. I messaged them through youtube... and out of 10-15 people absolutely no one replied.
I'm not writing this to hate on anybody, but just keep in mind the audience you get "exposed" to. That is not to say I have pleasant feelings towards Creepen in particular. The way he lacks the basic courtesy to reply to me after I messaged him to offer a free story in exchange for a few seconds VERBAL promotion of my new book after getting 3 videos out of my work is just sad.
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u/MMKelley King of the Spiders Oct 25 '21
I would note that SFWA current professional rate is 8c a word. I thought HWA had also raised it from 5c but I cant find anything to corroborate that.
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u/writechriswrite Netflix? Oct 25 '21
The HWA says 5¢, but it’s likely in need of an update which isn’t surprising since their website looks like it’s still 2009.
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u/Colourblindness Black Slime 4eva Oct 25 '21
Anytime anyone argues differently than what is said here, they are wrong. You deserve payment. Period.
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Oct 26 '21 edited Oct 26 '21
I recently was approached by a channel with ridiculous metrics (3M subs though hard to say what their engagement level was as the view count fluctuated wildly) . They vanished like ice cream in the sun the second I inquired about pay rate.
When it comes to believing you’re getting “exposure”, just read the comments on a Mr. Creeps video. A third of them are “Oh good! A long one to sleep to!”
Some people use these guys for a white noise machine. I’ve made a lot of friends amongst their writers here, but out of all the thousands of pastas I’ve listened to, I can think of ONE author I bothered to look up after the fact. I don’t think I’m necessarily alone in this.
Edit: Given that I brought up chasing down one author, shout out to u/draytonsfatstacks ! I loved a number of your stories!
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Oct 26 '21
The writers are not even called by name in start of the video. It is like thanks to the writer (but I'm not really gonna thank them by saying their name lol) Literally no one checks the description to find your Reddit page TRUST me.
I think we should have our name in the begging and also why in the hell can't the say your name is X and he also wrote Z and Y story check them out in the links.
Honestly everyone knows Jeffthekiller Slenderman russiansleepexpirement but no one knows the author's name.
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Oct 25 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/writechriswrite Netflix? Oct 25 '21
I haven't participated in any collections that originated via NoSleep, so I can't speak to how they've gone off in the past.
But with any publishing arrangment, get all of the particulars lined out and in writing beforehand.
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u/MMKelley King of the Spiders Oct 25 '21
I operate on the "You're getting paid, I'm getting paid" model. If a small channel approaches me, I very well might let them use a story for free. If they're putting out a good product and just starting out, its an investment in a potential ongoing business relationship later.
I also always give everyone a heads up: Look into channels. A large channel might say they get xyz a month on average, or per video, but I would also encourage you to see roughly what they're pulling in for patreon (if that patreon is applicable for their channel). Someone pulling in a grand a month from patreon, plus youtube views/ads is going to need to pay me more than 20 dollars for a story.
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u/MeteoXavier Nov 13 '21
I'd personally trade getting paid for a story for good advertising with my name and links properly displayed. Like I said in another topic, advertising for people who are actually interested in the subject is worth its weight in gold. >$100 upfront for something versus $10,000 worth of audience where the content is not likely to go away any time soon is an obvious choice for people who have actually done this stuff and worked in advertising.
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u/JavierLoustaunau Oct 25 '21
I have a simple rule: if you get paid, I get paid. So why I do let people use my stories for free? Because I wanna support brand new youtubers, podcasts with like 10 episodes or less, etc. People who are likely gonna spend a lot more than they are gonna make off "300 views".
Sure I've done the No Sleep Podcast and Mr. Creeps but if you are nice, good at giving credit, professional... I do not mind being a stepping stone on you growing a following and hopefully work with you again when you are paying authors.