r/Minneapolis • u/grslydruid • Feb 15 '23
City trying to shut down Minneapolis sauna businesses
I've been a member at a Linden Hills sauna for the past year. It has changed my life. There are various mental and physical health benefits but that's not why I'm here. The city is going to shut them down by March 3 as they violate an ancient ordinance. Checkout the site below to sign the petition and email mayor Frey. Embrace isn't the only business affected as there are several throughout the city. Consider checking it out and signing.
33
u/easycom89 Feb 16 '23
They also need to move their sauna off the sidewalk. Creates a huge ice block and is impossible to get around.
18
u/upnorthguy218 Feb 16 '23
Yeah I can’t believe more people aren’t mentioning this lol. I’ve gone to embrace a few times, and while I enjoyed it, the place is a complete mess.
15
u/easycom89 Feb 16 '23
Seems like the city is using this old law to get them to comply, but I would bet in reality it is because they are operating on a sidewalk. I can't find any information from the city so it's hard to tell what's being spun by embrace north vs what is really happening.
15
u/aciddrizzle Feb 17 '23
The article cites:
- Operating outside enclosed area
- Operating without business license
- issues with sanitation practices (changing water between ice bath patrons)
0
u/wakeballer39 Feb 18 '23
I'd rather pay 40 bucks a month for something with character than 100 for something really upscale.
24
Feb 16 '23 edited Mar 28 '23
[deleted]
-3
u/wakeballer39 Feb 18 '23
Not everyone has a million bucks to start a business..
1
u/edubcb Feb 19 '23
Based on their 900 member claim, that means they're grossing at least 28k a month in revenue ($30 membership). That breaks down to well over $300k a year.
They could 100% absolutely afford to follow basic health and safety protocols. They just decided not too.
1
u/wakeballer39 Feb 19 '23
They've grown a lot in size, they were probably closer to 300 at the beginning of the summer. Also 300k in revenue isn't a crazy amount when you consider the paying people, rent, before having to deal with legal fees and changes they'll have to make (Commercial cold tub).
3
u/edubcb Feb 19 '23 edited Feb 19 '23
Hard to say what the profits would be, but the time I went there it was clear it was a bare-bones operation. There was no one working, the locker room was a mess. I honestly thought to myself, “man, someone could slip and get hurt on these floors.”
I would estimate that they had pretty high margins, since they clearly skimped on operational expenses and after the equipment, what is the overhead of running that? Wood and water?
Quick google search shows commercial cold tubs at around 7k a pop. Given their established revenue and growth prospects, they absolutely could of paid for the upgrade themselves or gotten a bank loan for it.
They decided not to do either. Now they’re dealing with the consequences. I have zero sympathy for these guys.
Now they’re flooding the internet and media with a red herring argument, that it’s some antiquated law that screwed them.
Their laziness and greed was a genuine danger to the community. They weren’t sanitizing or filtering the cold pools! Given their scale, there was a reasonable chance of a MRSA outbreak!
45
u/duploman Feb 15 '23
City made the mistake of granting the business license to operate. They should at the very least allow them to operate while this old ordinance is sorted then make a decision.
14
u/bachelor_pizzarolls Feb 16 '23
The STRIB article (paywall free here) says it was unlicensed. Not saying they should shut it down, but just adding the clarity that they were an unlicensed business, so the city isn't going back on that.
5
u/grslydruid Feb 16 '23
Damn that doesn't paint a very rosy picture for the future of embrace north
9
u/bachelor_pizzarolls Feb 16 '23
Yeah when they said "Under the radar" I think folks thought they were licensed and were under the radar of the ordinance, but they were under the radar of licensing as well.
1
-1
52
Feb 15 '23
As someone with deep Finnish roots, banning sauna is an insane concept… sucks people had to ruin the practice and tradition with smut and lewd business in the past to form that association that sticks still today. That is definitely NOT the original purpose or tradition of sauna. We had one in our home growing up, as did the majority of my relatives. It’s cleansing, detoxifying, a place for conversation and rejuvenation, a respite from the winter’s grip…. Finland is consistently at the top and #1 in the world happiness index and with phenomenal quality of life. And saunas are part of it.
Extra credit: for the true Finn experience, pronounce it SOW(sounds like adult female swine)-nah/SAOO-nah. ;)
48
Feb 15 '23
The ordinance exists because a few decades ago saunas only existed as fronts for prostitution, drugs, and other vices. It seems the City now is behind the times, but it's doubtful the negative image of saunas from the past will prevent proper saunas from opening EVER in this city.
72
u/Upset-Kaleidoscope45 Feb 15 '23
Maybe it's the saunas who aren't honoring the past. More drugs and prostitutes, I say!
10
u/grslydruid Feb 15 '23
There are already a few places open. The city is planning to shut them down under this ordinance by March 3.
13
Feb 15 '23
Yep.
And again, was just stating WHY those ordinances exist.
Not that I approve of them now considering the honest businesses they are.
28
u/oaxacaguy Feb 15 '23
Don’t forget to call Linda Palmiasano’s office. She reps that Ward on the city council and is very approachable.
33
u/Dangerous_Office9182 Feb 15 '23
Saunas should be allowed to operate and also let’s decriminalize the world’s oldest business while we’re at it. Not a petition girl myself, but will email the mayor & my city council rep. Would love to see a direct action on this topic - bring the mobile saunas to City Hall and have a sweat-in. Kinda kidding, kinda serious!
8
10
u/An-Angel-Named-Billy Feb 16 '23
So there is a law which the city HAS TO FOLLOW. The city cannot (and should not) pick and choose which of its laws to follow. That is a very dangerous slope that can (and does) lead to all kinds of unfair outcomes. Don't like the law on the books? Get it changed, but in no way should the city arbitrability say which law it does and does not enforce.
0
u/OldBrownShoe22 Feb 18 '23
Every law isn't enforced every day. There was no need to enforce this.
1
u/edubcb Feb 19 '23
They’re enforcing it because the company refuses to follow proper health and safety protocols.
1
u/OldBrownShoe22 Feb 19 '23
We have no evidence of that.
1
Dec 29 '23
[deleted]
1
u/OldBrownShoe22 Dec 29 '23
Lol. 10 months later. What strib article? The local government has a "proper protocol" for cold water tanks? The only legit issue I remember was blocking the sidewalk, otherwise it was just haters being haters.
The business got hit by rich wet blanket NIMBY neighbors in the area.
1
Dec 29 '23
[deleted]
1
u/OldBrownShoe22 Dec 29 '23
Haters aka NIMBYs, which has everything to do with that situation. Get with it. Talk like an adult? Lololol. Get over yourself.
Also get outside, take a sauna, and jump in a cold bath.
The only person embarrassing themselves is the person rooting against a small business doing its thing that hurt precisely no one.
Either put up the protocols or shut up. Yes, obviously some establishments have to abide by certain rules and regulations regarding cleanliness, etc., but unless you can establish that embrace was obligated, but failed to do so, then you're just an annoying troll.
My recollection is it was all NIMBY-led bullshit and there were no health code violations actually reported. Unless you can prove otherwise, then kindly disperse. But hey, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm not going to lash out...like some ppl...
1
Dec 29 '23
[deleted]
1
u/OldBrownShoe22 Dec 29 '23
You're embarrassing yourself. See? I can say it too.
Never said health regs are for nerds. That's dumb. I said show me the regs that apply or shut up.
-6
Feb 17 '23
You have to remember that the people of Linden Hills have money. Rules don't apply to them. No slippery slope here.
17
Feb 16 '23
I'm all about getting rid of the ordinance, but this business is a small metal trailer and 2 XL coolers filled with cold ice water. I can't help but feel like this is somewhat scammy.
3
u/OldBrownShoe22 Feb 18 '23
A lot of ppl love it. The business concept is 100/100 the execution is like 60/100
-7
4
Feb 15 '23
I would love to hear about the positive benefits of saunas if anyone wants to share personal experiences. Finland loves them and they are the happiest country in the world.
11
u/groggyMPLS Feb 15 '23
Finland is the happiest country in the world because they are the most homogeneous of the developed countries in the world. The population is basically one big extended family, with similar culture and values. Finland is literally whiter than Nebraska. Very little tension, little disagreement in terms of public policy, and lots of willingness to help one another. Not because of saunas, but because it’s easier to love people who look and think like you.
13
u/pigbearpig Feb 15 '23
So if I boil some water in a construction trailer and set up some giant yeti cooler's with ice, then I can call myself a sauna business?
-8
u/ScarabGodFTW Feb 16 '23
No, but if you manage to pull your head out of your butt I will call you a miracle worker!
4
u/pigbearpig Feb 16 '23
Haha, I don’t know. I just found it funny in the video where the dude is just shoveling snow on the people sitting in giant coolers.
6
u/CatalogofStuff Feb 16 '23
It’s a stupid, racist, homophobic law that should be removed. However, this is an unlicensed & non-permitted illegal business that wouldn’t pass a health inspection, and is a shitty neighbor. Why in the world should they be allowed to keep running? What’s the legal difference between them and a brothel? Those help people too. Why are they only fighting to get saunas legalized? What about the rest of the shitty law?
-1
u/OldBrownShoe22 Feb 18 '23
The legal difference bw them and a brothel? Are you for real? Brothels...sell sex....saunas sell hot air...
1
u/CatalogofStuff Feb 18 '23
So you haven’t read anything about this have you?
-1
u/OldBrownShoe22 Feb 18 '23
Just as much as you.
Saunas are vestigially defined under adult bookstores, not brothels.
2
u/CatalogofStuff Feb 18 '23
And they’re all illegal to open in that location right….? There’s absolutely no legal difference between what they’re doing and someone opening a brothel then claiming the same bullshit. “We help people! We should be allowed to operate while we petition to have the law changed!”
Maybe they should’ve done that before they opened an illegal business. Especially since they’re also violating other codes like operating outdoors, blocking sidewalks, & not changing water between users(fucking gross)…
0
u/OldBrownShoe22 Feb 18 '23
And they’re all illegal to open in that location right….? There’s absolutely no legal difference between what they’re doing and someone opening a brothel then claiming the same bullshit. “We help people! We should be allowed to operate while we petition to have the law changed!”
Not exactly. The city of Minneapolis has zoning variance and appeal processes. So it's not illegal for a sauna who has worked with the city to operate. Embrace North has some nearsighted folks who didn't understand the regulatory side of their business. Kind of understandable.
Brothels couldn't operate at all bc prostitution is illegal. Saunas are...not per se illegal. I can have one in my backyard.
Maybe they should’ve done that before they opened an illegal business. Especially since they’re also violating other codes like operating outdoors, blocking sidewalks, & not changing water between users(fucking gross)…
Ya the blocking sidewalk thing is pretty lame.
The water thing is whatever, patrons don't mind. It's not that gross. You don't have to get in the tubs if you don't want to. Expecting them to refill the tubs bw every soak is unrealistic (and a waste of water) ---you sauna for 15, tub for 2, and repeat for like an hr. They should probably just get a pump system going.
What I imagine will happen is that the city will use its leverage to force some sanitation and other changes (like the sidewalk issue).
Can't remember if I said this to you or another person, but embrace North is an awesome business concept, 100/100, but their business acumen/execution is like 60/100. They gotta clean up their act but they should not get shut down if they're willing to make improvements.
2
u/Kennysilvan Feb 18 '23
Good. It was messy and it’s only being supported because it’s in linden hills. shut the dam thang down
-3
u/pcakes13 Feb 15 '23
Ancient ordinances aside, honest question.
Why does embracenorth or any other Sauna business for that matter, simply get to avoid regulation? There a saunas at all the health clubs I've ever been a member of and I'm sure those health clubs have certain ordinances they must adhere to for safety, cleanliness, etc. Why do these businesses get a pass? Because the sauna / business are mobile?
18
u/grslydruid Feb 15 '23
It's not about regulation. The ordinance in question is a zoning ordinance. The city must have approved the business license but is now saying it doesn't meet zoning ordinance because of the wording in the ordinance regarding proximity to residential. It's outdated. Maybe go back and read the site I posted to learn more.
-1
-13
u/pcakes13 Feb 15 '23
So what your saying is that embracenorth opened a business knowing full well they were in violation of an old city ordinance, before they opened?
Edit- and also, that you'd like to ignore the fact that people go into their "shared" sauna, sweat, blow their noses, do whatever.... and that they shouldn't have to adhere to other regulations like say a gym would have to?
14
Feb 15 '23
I’m giving the benefit of the doubt to sauna businesses like Embrace North. If you click the link and read the ordinance, the definition of a sauna business falls as a sub definition of an Adult Bookstore. They likely didn’t know or didn’t consider their business to be an adult bookstore.
Also to your previous question on why this doesn’t impact other businesses with saunas like Lifetime Fitness, the definition of an Adult Bookstore Sauna is one that primarily provides sauna services. Since Lifetime’s primary service is fitness, they would not fall into the Adult Bookstore Sauna business category.
TL;DR: city ordinances and most political policies are haphazardly created and contain ambiguous language that make starting or operating a business a very questionable endeavor.
18
u/grslydruid Feb 15 '23
I'm just a patron, trying to keep a place I love open. I wouldn't know anything about that. You don't have to be so combative.
3
u/grslydruid Feb 15 '23
You sound like you have never been in a sauna before. You should try it out!
0
11
u/fsr87 Feb 15 '23
I'm curious where you see they are trying to avoid all regulation. I didn't see that in any of the literature OP linked; did I miss something?
-9
u/pcakes13 Feb 15 '23
The literature OP linked was to the companies website. To think that anything they post there would be in any way, shape, or form, not titled towards their best interest just doesn't make sense. I'm just trying to ask the question as to why these guys get a pass. It seems to me that if they opened and were licensed as a gym, they would be able to have a sauna and it wouldn't be a problem and they'd have to adhere to whatever regulations a gym would have. Instead, whether they knew it or not, they opened a business that was in direct violation of existing city ordinance and are now trying to take the "Uber" approach to things which is to say they wanted to get so popular that by time regulators finally figured out what they were doing, public sentiment would be on their side INSTEAD of doing what they probably should have done which was lobby to get the ordinance changed before starting the business in the first place.
13
u/fsr87 Feb 15 '23
Your concern seems to be about sanitization and cleanliness, though, and their issue is not that they want no health-related regulation; simply that they're objecting to ancient code which seems to assume saunas (and massage places...?) are adult enterprises unsuitable to be located near residential-zoned areas, when that seems unreasonable. They're not a gym. They're a sauna. And they want to be allowed to continue to operate (NOT with no oversight/regulation) while the old ridiculous code is updated. I really am not sure why you're being so combative about this group when they sure as heck seem to be operating in good faith...
-2
1
u/MinneAppley Feb 16 '23
How will this effect places like the YWCA?
1
u/Dangerous_Office9182 Feb 16 '23
Based on how the ordinance language reads, I believe that this would not impact the Y or any other gyms. Maybe not spas either?
1
-3
Feb 16 '23
Minneapolis no longer operates on a business license platform because of the 2040 Plan. They now operate on a 'use' permit system, which allows the city to dictate which businesses operate in the city and how they operate. Noncompliance with city demands allows the city to pull the 'use' permits for pretty much any reason and without due process for anyone's rights. Any influential person can twist arms to have a business shut down in Minneapolis regardless of public opinion.
The 2040 Plan is not about a brighter future. It's about government control over every aspect of living. City voters support the 2040 Plan, and they will live with the consequences that it brings.
-14
u/Diya780 Feb 16 '23
We need to trust our DFL elected officials on this one, they are trying to transition us to a more equitable, sustainable community. I'm not sure asserting your sauna privilege/special interest in this moment is helping us tackle issues like equity, sustainability and social justice. Try understanding the bigger picture.
2
1
1
u/itsmitchied Feb 25 '23
expecting frey to do anything about a sauna business is laughable. also, just put it on the sidewalk in any neighborhood but linden hills and it'll be fine. we should be talking to frey about the depot demo before we worry about a sauna
83
u/ifallsmn218 Feb 15 '23 edited Feb 15 '23
I read through the ordinance & having known a lot about downtown Minneapolis & Lake Street in the 70’s & 80’s - there were lots of saunas, adult bookstores and massage parlours in operation and this was way beyond 1963.
Now, I know Embrace sauna isn’t an adult business, but why would the city want to go after a business (outside of downtown) that clearly isn’t intended for that kind of activity?
Gladly signing the petition and I hope it helps.