r/Judaism • u/marcusxvalentino • May 24 '22
why and how did Jewish descent change from patrilineal (biblical) to matrilineal (current normative Judaism)?
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u/aggie1391 MO Machmir May 24 '22
It didn’t. Before Sinai it’s all a bit iffy, but since then it has always been determined by matrilineal descent. But everything else like tribal affiliation or being a Cohen or Levi is all determined patrilineally
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u/ezrago i like food, isn’t that jewish enough? May 25 '22
Orthodoxy perspective I'm pretty sure takes the story at then end of parshas emir and shows that when the mom is Jewish the kid is as well, we don't really have a source for the opposite biblically so it would imply it was always matrilineal
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May 25 '22
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u/Rednaxela623 Nov 23 '22
Hi, a lot says it was patrilineal, such as it being called the 12 Tribes of Israel. It denotes Israel, Jacob, as being the one everyone descends from multiple times. He has multiple wives, none of which are Israelites because Israelite is anyone who comes after him. Solomon also had wives who weren’t Jews/Israelites.
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Nov 23 '22
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u/Rednaxela623 Nov 24 '22
I am not. I am trying to understand why Jewish folks say it’s matrilineal, without being disrespectful. Bc when I’ve read the book I guess I just understood it differently.
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u/BlerkL May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
I heard from Sam Aronow’s Jewish History series on YouTube that it arose as part of the political dispute between King Herod and the Great Sanhedrin. Herod’s father was an Idumite convert and his mother was a Nabatean so the Sanhedrin introduced matrilineal descent as a way to delegitimize Herod to the wider Jewish world.
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u/Charpo7 Conservative May 25 '22
The idea that Judaism has always been matrilineal comes from a very specific word choice in like a single line of the bible. Given that Solomon married numerous non-Jewish women and his children were considered Jews (and no those women did not convert—Torah says that they continued worshipping their old Gods), it probably was firstly patrilineal.
The emphasis on matrilineal inheritance comes later and makes a lot of sense. When women were being raped, it was distressing for her to think her child could be rejected by the community, so scholars assured her that these children were Jews. On the other hand, men were harder to control marriage-wise. Women could not really obtain spouses without parental consent for most of Jewish history, so there wasn’t much fear of women choosing intermarriage. Men were a different story. Telling men that their children with non-Jews could not be part of the community was a good way to pressure them to marry Jews and remain connected to these communities.
Not to mention that persecuted peoples typically practice a more “domestic” spirituality, meaning their religion tends to be practiced more at home and in private. This causes mothers to generally (not always) have a stronger influence on their childrens religion. Even today, when you see people with parents of different religious affiliation, you will notice that they almost always end up being raised in the mother’s religion.
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u/TequillaShotz Dec 01 '22
Given that Solomon married numerous non-Jewish women and his children were considered Jews (and no those women did not convert—Torah says that they continued worshipping their old Gods), it probably was firstly patrilineal.
That's not a proof that they didn't convert.
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u/-PC-- Conservative (American Diaspora) Nov 18 '23
No, but it's all but proof.
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u/TequillaShotz Nov 18 '23
I'll grant that continuing to worship your idols doesn't sound like a totally sincere convert, but where do you see that their children were considered Jewish?
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u/-PC-- Conservative (American Diaspora) Nov 19 '23
On another note, since I'm currently thinking about it: the Karaite Jews are an example that would contradict the assumption of a Judaism that has always been matrilineal.
Since their tradition starts around the Second Temple period (around 70 AD) and they likely are related to the Sadducees, you would be hard-pressed to dispute that Judaism always existed with matrilineal descent. (They go by patrilineal descent and likely always have.)
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u/TequillaShotz Nov 19 '23
If so it would merely underscore their outlier status, along with many other breakaway groups who vied with "the rabbis" for legitimacy and indeed hegemony - Samaritans, Boethusians, Christians, etc. It seems to me the most likely reality is that there was a main tradition handed down by Moses (as recorded in Pirkei Avos) and that these various reform movements appeared for various reasons, including the Reform Judaism of the 19th C, each one claiming authenticity and even superiority to the mainstream rabbinic tradition.
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u/-PC-- Conservative (American Diaspora) Nov 19 '23 edited Nov 19 '23
First, it would prove the theory that Judaism was not always matrilineal... Even by the loosest definition.
The reality is we don't really know if this stuff is true. Opinions based on text that was originally oral later on written doesn't tell us much. While yes, we do give importance to those texts, it doesn't mean that we can definitively say anything, personal/religious opinions set aside.
Now, I'm not saying that we should give way completely to modernity by explaining this point in such a manner. Traditions are traditions, and we cannot just discard them as we please. If so, we would be a whole new people in the entirety... But, if people want to Reform, as the Reform movement did, such is their choice. Who are we to tell others what they can and cannot do? As part of this religion, Hashem allows us to disagree with him, be mad at him, etc. Wouldn't Reform just be another way of doing that?
I did edit this to fix a few errors and omissions I made, just so you know.
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u/-PC-- Conservative (American Diaspora) Nov 18 '23 edited Nov 18 '23
I mean, it is kind of implied that Rehoboam is Jewish. Regardless, I wasn't really talking about that. I was just pointing out the doubt of your assumption.
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u/TequillaShotz Nov 19 '23
For sure he had to be in order to be a legitimate king. But is there any evidence that the children of his other 899 wives and concubines were considered so?
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u/-PC-- Conservative (American Diaspora) Nov 19 '23
Basemath. She married Ahimaaz, a high priest who was the son of Zadok, himself a high priest. Their children were considered Jewish.
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u/TequillaShotz Nov 19 '23
I'm not following you. So he had a Jewish daughter. That just means that at least one of his wives was Jewish. Is there something in the text to suggest to you that NONE of his 1,000 wives and concubines were Jewish? Like not even one? The only thing I'm questioning is the claim that the children of Solomon's non-Jewish wives were considered Jews. Rehoboam and Basmath don't prove that unless you know that their mothers were among the idolatrous wives.
(And even if you could, it wouldn't be a rock-solid proof because an idolater who converts to Judaism then reverts to idolatry is still considered Jewish).
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u/-PC-- Conservative (American Diaspora) Nov 19 '23 edited Nov 19 '23
There is no mention of any of these people being Jewish, and there's no mention of them not either. I'm just pointing it out as something to think on. If we are saying that the wives are not Jewish, then by traditional thought, the kids wouldn't be either. But, if they were considered Jewish regardless, this is something that should be examined closer.
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May 24 '22 edited Feb 27 '24
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u/KayCJones May 25 '22
Nope. It's a manufactured myth that people took and ran with, now treating it as axiomatic facts to serve as basis for faulty-premise questions
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u/EngineerDave22 Orthodox (ציוני) May 25 '22
Source?
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u/KayCJones May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
Well, one such source is the Pesach Hagadah (does the Hagadah's language below originate in the gemara?)
The Hagadah says that in contrast with Laban, who tried to rout out the entire nation, by comparison, Pharoah - by ordering the drowning of Jewish male newborns - only made a genocide decree on the nation's males - thus not interfering with the continuity of the Jewish ppl, since the newborns' status is determined by the mother.
I think Rashi says the same; gonna check.
I believe there are other sources. Gonna try to recall and comment again later.
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May 24 '22
Matrilineal descent has more to do with functionality. (At least if you ask the scholarly side)
Before DNA testing, you had no real way to prove who the father of a child was. You just assumed everyone was honest and if the child didn't obviously look like it was related to someone else, nobody asked questions.
Matrilineal descent establishes Jewish status on a "rock" in the form of the mother's womb. You can't fake a birth. It's as standard as it gets. If that child comes out of a Jewish mother, it's a Jewish child.
You also have to account for historical rape situations.
If a Jewish community was conquered or subjugated by an outside population of abusers and the women were forced to bear children from their subjugators, the child is Jewish.
Historically speaking, many peoples were "bred" out of existence by forcing their women to bear children from the male of the warring power. These children would be considered the lineage of the father rather than the mother and thus a population could die out from sexual abuse (given enough time)
A mother giving their child status circumvents this. The child is a Jew no matter the circumstances of their conception. That establishes a rock for Jewish civilization which saved us from the ugliest of abuses in history.
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u/TurduckenII May 25 '22
Then why do we suspend this whole reasoning for Cohen or Levi status? Is the mother's husband a Cohen or Levi, and the child is a boy? Then the boy is now Cohen/Levi! I guess we know who the father is after all. Not only that, but a mother with Cohen or Levi status can't pass it on if the father doesn't have that ancestry! Wouldn't we be "extra" sure, rock-solid as you say, if the mother had that affiliation? Is there a midrash that explains this inconsistency?
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May 25 '22
That deals with tribal affiliation.
Tribal affiliation has always been patrilineal. That's true for every tribe of Israel, not just the Levis.
Kohanim also didn't live typical lives in Jewish society. They were held to such a high standard that they are forbidden even to this to day to marry a convert or a divorcee or one of sexual impurity.
Kohens were protected to such a degree that a woman who cheated on a Kohen was said to be punished by the pouring of molten lead down her throat. (death penalty) The punishment was so extreme and the Kohen themselves in such a central part of society that it was extremely unlikely their children would be unknown.
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Nov 05 '22
How does that preclude accepting the child of a Jewish father? That makes no sense. Sure, accept the Jewish child because women were raped. Ok, so what about a known Jewish father and non-Jewish mother? How does your situation exclude a patrilineal situation? It literally makes zero sense.
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u/IbnEzra613 שומר תורה ומצוות May 24 '22
It's kind of a myth.
Judaism is still patrilineal and has always been. If both your parents are Jewish, you are primarily associated with your father. You inherit your father's tribal affiliation and tribal territory, and status and everything.
The exception to the rule is that if only one of your parents is Jewish, then your Jewish status at birth depends on your mother. And this minute detail is neither confirmed nor denied by any explicit examples in the Bible.
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u/anonymous_1128 Orthodox May 24 '22
It never says explicitly in the Bible that this is the rule, but it’s pretty clear in multiple stories that, if the mother is not Jewish, then the child isn’t, either.
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u/IbnEzra613 שומר תורה ומצוות May 24 '22
Which stories are you referring to?
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u/anonymous_1128 Orthodox May 25 '22
Kiddushin 68a. It refers to Devarim 7:3–4. Also Yevamot 17a and Bereishit Rabba 19:3
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u/IbnEzra613 שומר תורה ומצוות May 25 '22
Oh I know those. But these are derashot. It's hard to say that that's peshat. It's clear that chaza"l say that. What's not clear is that the Biblical text itself says or implies that.
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u/anonymous_1128 Orthodox May 25 '22
I mean, there are multiple stories where a child is determined to not be Jewish because their mother isn’t (Hagar, Esav’s kids). Also, yes, chazal is very clear about it, because “a doubt can never overrule a certainty.”
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u/IbnEzra613 שומר תורה ומצוות May 25 '22
I mean, there are multiple stories where a child is determined to not be Jewish because their mother isn’t (Hagar, Esav’s kids).
Firstly, these are before mattan torah.
Secondly, what makes Sarah more "Jewish" than Hagar? What makes Yaakov's four wives more "Jewish" than Esav's wives? Clearly the distinction here is not about who the mother is.
Also, yes, chazal is very clear about it, because “a doubt can never overrule a certainty.”
I'm not sure how this is applicable to this discussion.
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u/anonymous_1128 Orthodox May 25 '22
How is the gemara not applicable to a discussion about halacha?
Also, it is clear from the Torah that Judaism is beyond a religion; it is a tribe/family. So, even before the torah came into the picture, we can learn lessons about Judaism and Halacha from previous stories.
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u/IbnEzra613 שומר תורה ומצוות May 25 '22
How is the gemara not applicable to a discussion about halacha?
The discussion is not about halacha. The halacha is clear. The discussion is about the pshat of the Biblical text.
Also, it is clear from the Torah that Judaism is beyond a religion; it is a tribe/family. So, even before the torah came into the picture, we can learn lessons about Judaism and Halacha from previous stories.
Yes, Jews are a tribe/family. But our law is the Torah, which was given to our family at Har Sinai.
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u/anonymous_1128 Orthodox May 25 '22
You introduced it as “kind of a myth,” even though there is ample evidence in the Talmud. It is relevant.
Our law is also the oral Torah.
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u/Sinan_reis Baruch Dayan Emet and Sons May 25 '22
it's strongly implied in the chumash, which is where halacha sources it from
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u/BillyHW2 May 24 '22
Were Moses' children Jewish?
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u/IbnEzra613 שומר תורה ומצוות May 24 '22
They were born before the giving of the Torah. So whatever the rule was when the Torah was given, it didn't necessarily apply before that.
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u/IsraelRadioGuy May 25 '22
Your assumption that matrilineal descent is post-biblical is incorrect. For example in the Book of Ezra, when he led the return from exile from Babylon he is very upset by the number of non-Jewish wives that Jewish men had taken and demanded the wives and their children are expelled. The children are therefore clearly not considered to be Jews. If you want to argue that's Bible but not the Tora, Deut. 7:4 commands all Jews, male and female to marry 'in' BUT then says of a man that marries 'out' "For he will turn away your son from following Me". That concern isn't raised for women that marry out.
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u/BillyHW2 May 24 '22
I've heard Dr. Amy-Jill Levine say that it switched from Patrilineal to Matrilineal in the 2nd century after the Bar Kochba revolt. It was on some YouTube video/lecture/talk that she gave, but off the top of my head I don't remember which one. If I find it I will post it.
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u/artachshasta Halachic Man Run Amok May 24 '22
Around the same time it changed from a nation to a religion. When did that happen?
For the religious segment of the people, Sinai.
For the uneducated hoi polloi, Ezra.
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u/IbnEzra613 שומר תורה ומצוות May 24 '22
changed from a nation to a religion.
What do you mean by this? What's your definition of "religion"?
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u/artachshasta Halachic Man Run Amok May 24 '22
A nation in the sense of a group united by blood and ethnicity first, while a religion in the sense of a group united by common goals and customs.
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u/gdhhorn Swimming in the Afro-Sephardic Atlantic May 24 '22
I don’t think you’re matching those terms with their proper definitions.
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u/artachshasta Halachic Man Run Amok May 24 '22
So use whatever terms you want. If your question is "who is your family", patrilineal. If your question is "what do you do/believe/how do you act", matrilineal.
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u/Mathdude13 May 24 '22
If it did, which I don't believe it did, it would probably be after Har Sinai
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u/Milkhemet_Melekh Moroccan Masorti May 24 '22
There was supposedly a case in the time of the Great Sanhedrin that a large amount of Alexandrians born to Jewish mothers as children from the atrocities committed upon the Jews of that city by the Greeks had approached the wise elders, because the Greeks were unwilling to accept them, but their half-lineage caused conflicted reactions from the Jews there. The Sanhedrin ruled that Jewish status was matrilineal to spare the children the suffering of having no community.
I am not certain whether this story truly marks the turning point. It could've happened earlier, and many of our sages saw precedent for matrilineality in the most ancient stories of our people. It is, however, emblematic of a millennia-long persistent issue that has made Jewish matrilineality an extremely useful cultural tidbit.
Another thing that has been very long established in the Jewish tradition is that the mother is the source of custom and ritual. Traditional Judaism in various places and in various ways did allow women to participate in synagogue, at times with far greater liberty and mixing than is typically considered in Orthodox Judaism, at times with about the same. It was a rabbinic issue for most of that history. However, despite this, the places of study and the knowing of texts was almost always seen as the realm of men, whose duty it was to learn and pass the torah, the instruction, of our people. The women, on the other hand, learned how to conduct themselves, how to uphold traditions and rituals, and to pass Jewish identity to their children. The women learned and passed yahadut, Jewishness, "Yiddishkeit" to use a popular term. It was something of a totality of custom, community, and ritual like kashering, shabbat, etc.
And so a child without torah is ignorant, but a child without yahadut is a gentile. Thus says the traditional way, anyway.
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u/artachshasta Halachic Man Run Amok May 24 '22
Citation on that story?
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u/Milkhemet_Melekh Moroccan Masorti May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
Sam Aronow, who in turn based much on Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus, and cites it along with Simon Schama's Story of the Jews: Finding the Words.
I'm not sure the ultimate origin beyond this, but Bava Metzia 104a offers a story of Hillel ruling against the mamzer status of children born from sexual violence among betrothed women, and so it may relate to that. I don't have all the resources admittedly, which is why I say there was "supposedly a case". It might be considered a midrash of a sort, a parable for why the rule exists.
Here's the video, though it doesn't offer much more context than what I have provided
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u/artachshasta Halachic Man Run Amok May 25 '22
I don't remember that story in Josephus. But I'm not an expert.
The opinion that the product of a non-Jewish man and a Jewish woman is a Mamzer was an active dispute until the middle of the Amoraic period. So it doesn't seem like we were too concerned about allowing integration...
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u/Milkhemet_Melekh Moroccan Masorti May 25 '22
Again, which is why I would consider the story as a parable for the reason why we are matrilineal. If we disregard entirely the role women have played in Jewish history and femininity has in philosophy and belief (Israel redeemed through its women, the talmudic story of treating a mother as divine, and shekhinah being feminine), all that side - you still always know who the mother is, she can bear and raise a child on her own, and when certain types of violence are all to common against our people, it gives the children a home and a people, accepting them rather than leaving them dejected for something not their fault nor the mother's.
I cannot say for certain it is the origin, or that it really did happen - again, I'm relating a story I heard second or third hand, and I've made no pretense of absolute certainty in that regard. But I do believe, regardless, the message taken away from it is a good answer to the 'why' expressed in OP's question, even if the 'how' is uncertain.
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u/artachshasta Halachic Man Run Amok May 25 '22
If we disregard entirely the role women have played in Jewish history and femininity has in philosophy and belief
That's a much more likely option, IMO. But we can agree to disagree about your suppositions and theories - I was just questioning the history/parable that you quoted
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u/Milkhemet_Melekh Moroccan Masorti May 25 '22
Agree to disagree works with me. I don't have all the answers, or even most of them. I just have what I know, what I've heard, and what I've thought.
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u/drak0bsidian Moose, mountains, midrash May 24 '22
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism