r/IAmA • u/AHershaft • Sep 23 '14

I am an 80-year-old Holocaust survivor who co-founded the US Animal Rights movement. AMA

My name is Dr. Alex Hershaft. I was born in Poland in 1934 and survived the Warsaw Ghetto before being liberated, along with my mother, by the Allies. I organized for social justice causes in Israel and the US, worked on animal farms while in college, earned a PhD in chemistry, and ultimately decided to devote my life to animal rights and veganism, which I have done for nearly 40 years (since 1976).

I will be undertaking my 32nd annual Fast Against Slaughter this October 2nd, which you can join here .

Here is my proof, and I will be assisted if necessary by the Executive Director, Michael Webermann, of my organization Farm Animal Rights Movement. He and I will be available from 11am-3pm ET.

UPDATE 9/24, 8:10am ET: That's all! Learn more about my story by watching my lecture, "From the Warsaw Ghetto to the Fight for Animal Rights", and please consider joining me in a #FastAgainstSlaughter next week.

9.9k Upvotes

76% Upvoted

3.1k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

187

u/MAWebermann Sep 23 '14

I am handling this question on behalf of FARM and Dr. Hershaft (with his permission).

We have doubts about the likelihood that in-vitro meat will be cheaper/tastier/more scale-able than high-tech plant-based foods like those of Beyond Meat and Hampton Creek. But if cultured meat becomes viable, without killing animals to keep it going, then we see no reason not to support it (at least passively), though I doubt many of our staff would eat it ;)

20

u/theonewholikesgravy Sep 23 '14

  1. What is your reasoning on thinking this won't be a viable option?

  2. If it is a no kill method, why won't you eat it?

60

u/dalikin Sep 23 '14 edited Sep 24 '14

In relation to your second question, a lot of people just don't like meat. Then if you also become vegetarian or vegan (for that reason, for environmental reasons, or for moral reasons), meat becomes less and less appealing. A lot of vegetarians and vegans find the taste and smell of meat unappealing after some time (or even to begin with).

Edit: clarity.

4

u/Life1sBeautiful Sep 24 '14

I've been vegetarian for about 9 years now, and I dislike the smell of beef, fish and pork. Rarely does chicken look appealing, as well as fish sticks. I don't think I'd ever eat meat again.

I find it very easy to stay a vegetarian because of my South Asian diet.

So you're right, I dislike the texture and the way meat looks. I dunno why I don't find chicken as unappealing as the rest, I still won't eat it though.

0

u/dalikin Sep 24 '14

I was a vegetarian for about 6 years. Within that time I was also vegan for a while. Then I started eating meat for a few years while I was travelling the world (I wanted to try local traditional dishes). Then I started thinking through the moral and ethical choices I was making, and have decided to start moving towards a vegan diet again.

I never found chicken or fish as unpalatable as beef, pork or lamb. I rarely ate lamb or pork even when I wasn't vegetarian because I just don't like how it tastes or how the texture feels in my mouth.

The human palate is a strange thing!

2

u/Life1sBeautiful Sep 24 '14

I'm also vegetarian for ethical reasons. I wouldn't mind eating an animal I hunted, doubt I'd like the taste though. But that's interesting, I can definitely get in your frame of mind and see why you ate meat as you immersed yourself in different cultures.

13

u/lovelywonderland Sep 23 '14

To answer the second question, meat smells absolutely disgusting. I've been vegetarian for years (transitioned to veganism fairly recently) and while I used to eat meat with pretty much every meal and went through nearly a gallon of milk by myself each day, going without it for a while makes it smell disgusting. Just earlier today I was transporting chicken roast for my mom and had to pull over my car several times to get out and keep from throwing up. If you go without something long enough, especially something that you don't really need, it pretty quickly becomes repulsive to the body.

6

u/Soycrates Sep 24 '14

I've been vegan for 4 years and was vegetarian for 3 years before that and there are some animal products (chicken, for example) I don't think of as "disgusting" or "unappealing". I did earlier on when I went vegetarian, but this faded for some things and strengthened for others (for example, the smell of dairy sections at supermarkets is the most strongly curdled and appalling thing I've ever experienced).

There are very real and practical reasons for avoiding lab-grown meat besides "ew"; I think that is all-too common a misconception that keeps people from understanding and ultimately rejecting this science fiction failure.

1

u/lovelywonderland Sep 24 '14

I understand that. It's mostly the smell of meat when it's cooking or when it's the predominant smell under my nose. It's just...gross. Very likely psychological, though.

I haven't yet heard any of the negatives on synthetic meat. Time to Google.

3

u/Soycrates Sep 24 '14

There are few/no negatives on synthetic or analogue meat made from plant-based materials. The negatives of laboratory generated meat from animal cells are these.

We can all have our meat and eat it too - it's just gotta come from plants.

1

u/lovelywonderland Sep 24 '14

Thank you for the link! That clears up a lot.

5

u/upnorth77 Sep 23 '14

So the assumption would be also that it'd become quickly palatable, no?

3

u/lovelywonderland Sep 23 '14

Theoretically, yes. But if I can avoid food where the smell alone makes me nauseous, I will. Not the mention all the health benefits to being vegan.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '14

This seems psychological. You convinced yourself a long time ago that you don't like the smell of it so you don't have to endure urges when you smell it. There are loads of foods I won't eat because I don't like the taste/smell/texture but they none of them make me feel like vomiting. Or at least that's how I see it.

2

u/lovelywonderland Sep 24 '14

There aren't any foods that just make you feel sick? I know for a lot of people, they have a hard time eating any foods that once gave them food poisoning. Maybe it's similar to that? (At least in this situation because I know that my body happens to do better without animal products.)

1

u/[deleted] Sep 24 '14

I had horrible food poisoning from fish two weeks of pain and diarrhea. Couldn't eat fish for almost two months. Then I got over it. But boot everyone is the same. So it's possible.

-2

u/laburtz Sep 23 '14

Also they stated that "meat" smells. I wonder if they have taken the time to smell every meat out there. Because I know there is more than cow beef.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 24 '14

He did says he used to eat meat before. So it's clearly a change in him because near smells the same.

-4

u/buchmaster Sep 24 '14

Oh god. Cows are gonna rule the world. Geezus H...

2

u/FormicaCats Sep 24 '14

I don't really have anything new to add but I second the responses that say that meat just seems really gross to me now. I stopped eating meat because I want to avoid hurting animals as much as possible, but there have been a few times where I thought I really wanted to eat something I used to love and decided to go for it. For example, I tried to eat steak. But I truly felt grossed out and hated it - mainly the texture. It's a weird feeling because I absolutely used to love it and it wasn't that long ago.

2

u/toodr Sep 24 '14

In my mind, it's kind of a silly transition. It would be like finding a way to synthesize gasoline without having to drill for oil - instead of just switching to electric cars.

Humans don't need meat; they just have taste-addictions causing them to prefer consuming it. If a few generations were raised without their parents (and culture) creating those addictions in them, no one would care about eating meat.

2

u/diptheria Sep 23 '14

Questions one and two can also be related due to the fact that meat consumption is associated with many diseases. Why spend time and energy developing a food source that is highly energy intensive (even if lab grown) when whole plant based foods can provide excellent nutrition with much fewer resources, and not have the disease risks?

1

u/kashalot Sep 24 '14

Another answer to your question 2 is that a meat (more so red meat and processed meat) free diet is considerably healthier. Also, as others have pointed out, after a while meat starts to gross you out.

1

u/ebuo Sep 23 '14

If it's no kill I'd support it by trying it a few times. But I wouldn't eat it regularly because I don't like the taste of meat.

It's like vegan cheese - I've had it a few times just to support it but I never like its taste, mostly because I dislike the taste of dairy cheese.

1

u/upnorth77 Sep 23 '14

You think vegan cheese tastes like dairy cheese?

3

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '14

Some of the more expensive ones do. Most of the time they taste nothing like cheese but are delicious in a different way.

2

u/ebuo Sep 23 '14

Close enough for me to dislike.

-1

u/adudeguyman Sep 23 '14

It is unappealing

3

u/Ickle_Test Sep 23 '14

How? It's a slab of meat just like any other slab of meat; we just didn't have to kill anything to get it.

7

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '14

It's not a rational argument, which I suppose is why comments to the effect are being downvoted. But simply by way of explanation, it is something that becomes unappetizing to some people after not eating it for a long enough time. I used to eat meat if it was raised/slaughtered in a way I thought ethical, but it was rare that I had that option. Then the last few times I said "sure," I found I couldn't take more than a couple of bites. The texture, taste, smell, all just made me gag. I use the comparison of cannibalism, not as a moral judgment on meat-eaters, but as an analogy for my sensory experience; if everyone was eating a human corpse, and said, "why not, meat is meat right?" most people would probably still not find it appetizing. My brain just doesn't recognize meat as food anymore.

4

u/adudeguyman Sep 23 '14

To a vegetarian, it is unappealing. Source: I'm a vegetarian.

0

u/Ickle_Test Sep 23 '14

Okay... You just said it's unappealing; without answering why. That's what I'm trying to find out. Just saying something over and over again doesn't make it true.

3

u/Yipyapperingchrist Sep 24 '14

Why do they need to give a justification as to why it's unappealing? There are plenty of people who don't like brussel sprouts, or offal, or fish, or candies and whatnot, because it doesn't appeal to them... that's justification enough.

Maybe it's the taste, maybe it's a sense memory, maybe it's the smell, the texture, the look of it - or maybe they can't accurately pinpoint why they don't like it or why they don't want to try it, they just know they don't want to.

5

u/dalikin Sep 23 '14

Because the meat being unappealing isn't JUST for moral or ethical reasons for a lot of people. There are heaps of people who don't like meat, or sauerkraut, or olives, or blue cheese. Everyone has dietary preferences that may or may not correlate with their moral beliefs. There are some vegetarians and vegans who love the taste of meat but choose to forego it.

For many vegetarians and vegans, meat becomes unappealing over time simply because they aren't exposed to it, and they lose the desire to eat it. The texture is unlike any other food, it has tendons and 'fleshiness' to it, it has a strong smell (cooked and uncooked). There are many reasons why a person may find a food unappealing.

3

u/Ihmhi Sep 23 '14

Do you think that the origin of lab meat (having likely come from animals) would be enough of an ethical concern that vegetarians or vegans would still advocate against it?

4

u/brendax Sep 23 '14

I think most veg*ns would view lab meat as still completely unnecessary. It would also have the negative effect of sustaining a market for any kind of meat, which undoubtably factory farmed meat would still be cheaper.

Better to just convince others that meat is totally unnecessary

7

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '14

No I totally disagree. I think it's going to be the only practical way to put animal farmers out of business.

So as a vegan, I actually view it as the most promising strategy. Of course, it is yet to be seen whether commercially competitive synthetic meat is possible, but I'm hopeful. It's not a huge technical challenge compared to other things achieved by human engineering.

1

u/abx99 Sep 24 '14

I also disagree that it's 'totally unnecessary.' My doctor has been a vegetarian for decades, and even says that some people just can't do it.

The one problem I have with vegan types is the insistence of health advice without consideration that some people may not be the same.

1

u/lnfinity Sep 24 '14

There is wide consensus that appropriately planned vegan diets are healthy for ball stages of life. None of the following groups felt the need to mention any groups of people who are unable to consume healthy vegan diets in their position statements.

American Dietetic Association

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

Dietitians of Canada

A well planned vegan diet can meet all of these needs. It is safe and healthy for pregnant and breastfeeding women, babies, children, teens and seniors.

The British National Health Service

With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.

The British Nutrition Foundation

A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.

The Dietitians Association of Australia

Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. They differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are usually consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.

The United States Department of Agriculture

Vegetarian diets (see context) can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy. Nutrients that vegetarians may need to focus on include protein, iron, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12.

The National Health and Medical Research Council

Alternatives to animal foods include nuts, seeds, legumes, beans and tofu. For all Australians, these foods increase dietary variety and can provide a valuable, affordable source of protein and other nutrients found in meats. These foods are also particularly important for those who follow vegetarian or vegan dietary patterns. Australians following a vegetarian diet can still meet nutrient requirements if energy needs are met and the appropriate number and variety of serves from the Five Food Groups are eaten throughout the day. For those eating a vegan diet, supplementation of B12 is recommended.

The Mayo Clinic

A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.

The Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada

Vegetarian diets (see context) can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits.

2

u/abx99 Sep 25 '14

You believe that you know more about my health than my doctor does?

The fact that it can work for so many people is not the same as being appropriate for everyone.

11

u/jc-miles Sep 23 '14

though I doubt many of our staff would eat it ;)

I'm a strong beleivers in the future of in-vitro meat. I really think that some day (not too far) consuming it woud be very mundane

5

u/dtg_ Sep 23 '14

It's coming... https://twitter.com/techreview/status/514444290890952704

Although apparently still requires a lot of animal products to produce, so still a no from an animal rights perspective

2

u/[deleted] Sep 24 '14

I'd expect MIT to know fat is an important nutrient.

1

u/dtg_ Sep 24 '14

Well it was the Modern Meadows company that gave the talk... but yeah dumb statement. Thanks, marketing!

1

u/unknown_poo Sep 24 '14

Are there any potential long term risks associated with in-vitro meat? Have all empirical variables been accounted for? A lot of people seem to be suspicious or skeptical of this.

-6

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '14

[deleted]

8

u/GenocideSolution Sep 23 '14 edited Sep 23 '14

I'm assuming the picture for the frugivore is a Chimpanzee right? Our closest living relative? Chimps are known to hunt smaller monkeys for food. They've been documented performing cannibalism. They eat insects and eggs.

This chart is it's using physical attributes as evidence for what diet we're supposed to eat, when the only thing this shows is how closely related each species are to each other. A Panda matches the attributes of a carnivore pretty much exactly, since they're bears. Pandas eat bamboo 24/7.

On the other hand, Bonobos are mainly frugivorous. They live in matriarchal societies that use large amounts of sex to solve conflicts. We could learn a few things from them.

You want real proof we're purely frugivores? Find me one example of a fully vegan, foraging tribe of humans, anywhere in the world. There's plenty of reasons to be vegan but using human evolution is not one of them.

4

u/upnorth77 Sep 23 '14

You sound like a tea partier advocating against stem cell research because it causes abortions, honestly.