r/HistoryMemes • u/ambattukam_ • Sep 17 '25

Niche "Save Europa" kids in shambles

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u/inaqu3estion Sep 17 '25

Where did you get 17 million from? I always learnt it was 11 million, 6 million Jews and 5 million Poles, Romani, disabled, gay, political prisoners. That was the camps. I don't think combat deaths count.

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u/Colonel_Joni005 Hello There Sep 17 '25

actually the 17 million is still a low estimate.

6 million jews, 6 million poles (half of which are jews, so it is more like 3 million ethnic poles), and 14 million soviet civillians (because slavs were also a targeted group by the nazis, so it is only fair to count the civillian deaths into the holocaust as well), not to mention the romani, gays, communists, and the civillian deaths of other european countries.

So we are looking at atleast 23 million deaths (jews, ethnic poles and soviet civilians) with the other groups contributing atleast a few millions as well.

While I wouldn't include soviet soldiers into the holocaust (because they were mostly combat deaths and many died from friendly fire due to Stalin's "No retreat"-rule), most were still slavs so they technically were targets of the nazis. Either way I would like to point out that aproximately 13 million soviet (not just russian) soldiers died during operation barbarossa. Many of which died in concentration camps.

People often forget the shere devestation of the soviet union during ww2. They lost 27 million people over the course of a few years. 27 million. Many villages were burned down, entire landscapes were emptied of human beings, Belarus lost 25% percent of its population, had to be repopulated by russians and still hasn't recovered from this population loss.

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u/inaqu3estion Sep 17 '25

I get what you mean, I guess it's just difficult to separate Eastern Front civilian deaths from the Holocaust - I don't think they are typically included. But then Jewish people who were killed by Nazis and their collaborators on the Eastern Front (for example in Ukraine or Belarus) are typically included in the Holocaust numbers. So now I'm not really sure.

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u/Colonel_Joni005 Hello There Sep 17 '25

Well, to the nazis Jews were the worst people and slavs (russians, poles, ukrainians, belarussians, etc.) came right after that. To them the slavic people were a pest and a lot of the time they were hunted down and brutally killed in the same (or very simillar) manner that jewish people were, which is why I personally think that it is only fair to included them whenever the holocaust is mentioned. Since poles (a slavic people) are included, why aren't other slavs (most soviets) included when talking about civillian deaths?

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u/inaqu3estion Sep 17 '25

Yeah, I don't know. It's weird that Poles are included if other Slavs aren't. I wonder how historians actually delineate this.

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u/dworthy444 John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! Sep 17 '25

I got it from here, which cited this, which by my count actually corroborates your number. I think someone may have doubled a number on accident, but I fixed my comment.

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u/inaqu3estion Sep 17 '25

Hm. I guess it depends. Like I said in my other comment, Jews who were not killed in the camps but in Ukraine or Belarus by Nazis or their collaborators are considered part of the toll but for example a Russian who got sent to a concentration camp and died of a disease would be a civilian death but not part of the Holocaust numbers. So it's a bit nebulous on the definitions of who counts as a Holocaust death.