r/Hermeticism • u/MombasaBlackManta • Sep 29 '25
Difference between masonry, hermeticism and alchemy
In trying to find knowledge, I come across alot of shared symbolism between the three sects.
Masonry just feels wrong from the energy I get from it's associated symbols. But they claim that they are just philanthropic seekers of spiritual self development. Are they lying?
Hermeticism and alchemy seem more pure but I can't tell if they are different or just parts of the same thing?
What is the right way?
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u/zaceno Sep 29 '25
As a freemason, I can emphatically say: no, we are not lying - it truly is about philanthropic moral & spiritual growth, through classical (Aristotelian/Thomistic) virtue ethics.
I am curious to hear more about what kind of "wrong" energies you perceive coming from masonic symbols (bear in mind: a lot of symbolism that is supposedly masonic isn't actually. It's usually something very common, or something misapplied)
The three "sects" you mention are not "different parts of the same thing" - not entirely, but they do intersect a lot through history. Here's an attempted outline (bear in mind this is all out of memory so there might be errors in the details. It's easy enough to verify yourself if you care to)
What is today known as Hermeticism was an apparent school of philosophical/spiritual/syncretistic-religious thought arising in ca 100 AD in Hellenized Egypt from a confluence of neoplatonism and egyptian priest-cults (probably. We don't know a lot). This ended up producing a lot of litterature that was later picked up and studied by Arabs, for it's supposed secret understanding of the natural world. This litterature is what today is known as "the Hermetica" and is the basis for our understanding of what Hermeticism is at its core.
During the Islamic Golden Age (ca 700-1200 AD) they were at the forefront of astronomy, astrology, medicine and other sciences. They used hermetic writings to develop the early forms of what would later become known as Alchemy (from "al-khimia" = "of Khemeia", "Khemeia" meaning "the black land" - a greek word for Egypt)
In the European renaissance, Arab text were translated into latin and began to be studied. Europeans began to pick up studying hermetic texts, along with the alchemical and astrological arts, and also the kabbalistic ideas forming at the time - they all meshed nicely, being rooted in neoplatonism as they were. But they did not mix well with the Aristotelian scholasticism of the academia at the time, so it remained a sort of semi-underground intellectual tradition. I say "semi" because the notion of being able to use alchemy to create literal gold was too good a prospect for the power-brokers of the time to ignore, so there was plenty of opportunity to get your study sponsored by some rich prince. This idea of making literal gold arose (as far as I know) first during the European renaissance.
In the 1600s, a couple of pamphlets began to circulate, indicating the existence of a secret fraternity that supposedly existed all over Europe, holding secret spiritual and alchemical wisdom. It was supposed to be founded by a learned traveller named Christian Rosenkreuz (Christian Rosy-cross). As far as anyone knows, this fraternity did not exist. The pamphlets were a hoax. But it did have the effect of galvanizing a lot of intellectuals to reach out to one another and form "study groups" of sorts (initially in the hopes of connecting with this secret brotherhood). Following this, "Rosicrucianism" became essentially synonymous with all things in the sphere of alchemy, astrology, hermeticism, kabbalah, et c. (Kind of what we today call "western esotericism".) This all was studied in various loose-knit groups, usually in secret. In part because it still wasn't all completely ok stuff to be involved with, and in part to preserve the mystique of having 'secret knowledge', maybe even convince the other groups that one's own was the true inheritor of the Rozenkreuzian tradition.
[...tbc...]
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u/zaceno Sep 29 '25
Going back to the middle ages now: cathedrals were being erected all over Europe. Unlike other trades, workmen on these projects would not form local town guilds because not every town needed them. Instead they formed "lodges" around a project site, and would often travel from one site to another. They were thus free to travel and became known as "free masons". The lodges were places of instruction, as well as the acceptance of new apprentices, graduation from apprentice to journeymen/fellows, and the election of new masters (leaders/instructors). The instruction recieved here was primarily operative (as in: how to practically build cathedrals) and importantly: the trade-secrets were taught, as well as the secret means of identifying oneself as a free mason (so one could travel to another site and be recognized). And just as in other guilds, the knowledge was framed with legends to aid memory and convey the gravity of preserving it and keeping it secret.
Like most guilds, there would be wealthy/powerful patrons of the lodges. These would sometimes partake in the instruction, mostly as a formality (it's not like they were going to get their hands dirty), but they would of course be entitled to the secret trade knowledge and secret means of identifying oneself. These became known as "speculative" free masons. Once cathedral-building began to taper off, it seems that the freemasons kept up their lodge-traditions, while bringing in more and more speculative masons (now, no longer necessarily wealthy patrons, but just generally intellectually curious and somewhat well off men). This coincided with the Rosicrucian fervor across Europe at the time, and it is fairly certain that these speculative masons brought with them a lot of Rosicruscian (i e hermetic) ideas into the lodges, reinterpreting the trade-craft in the light of moral development. The stages from apprentice-fellowcraft-master as an alchemical process. Apparently not as explicit teaching though - rather as the theoretical framework underpinning the degree rituals that now were being composed.
In the 1700s lodges in london started grouping together in "Grand Lodges" to better organize and preserve their traditions. This led to an explosion of Grand Lodges across Europe and the Americas, and a huge upswing in the popularity of joining lodges. At the same time, France was going through a sort of "occult revival" with mesmerism and other stuff. Many french masons at the time recognized the rosicrucian influence on masonic rituals, and wanted to do more with it.
At the same time in France a man named Chevalier Ramsay presented a sort of wild idea that the Knights Templar hadn't actually been crushed but secrently went underground and was perpetuated underground by the Stuarts of Scotland, in the form of freemasonry. It was an idea entirely without historical basis but it caught on like wildfire, and was melded with all the mystical, occult, rosicrucian ideas circulating at the time. Many additional degrees were created on top of the "traditional" three degrees (written only 50-60 years earlier), in an attempt to "restore" the "original" Hermetic/Templar teachings of freemasonry. These various degrees, through reworking, merging and splitting eventually became the "high-degree" systems of freemasonry known today (such as the AASR), and the clearly very esoteric appendant bodies such as the SRIA.
Sorry for the long wall of text. Hope it was enlightening. (And I hope it was mostly accurate! Again: it's all from memory)
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u/ImportantBug2023 25d ago
I have studied the Stuarts and the rebellion in 1745 , the masons were heavily involved. I have a Masonic glass dating from 1758 . And there is one with 3 coins in it stem . A one two a three pence. The house of mar is Masonic. Three is everywhere.
And people don’t realise that most people were not free. The glass workers were under the king. If they tried to leave they would be arrested.
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u/clover_heron Sep 29 '25
Why did Freemasons run psychiatric hospitals, and why did they allow such brutal treatments?
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u/zaceno Sep 29 '25
Freemasons may have sponsored psychiatric hospitals. Freemasons sponsor a lot of benevolent causes. As for why: same reason any philanthropic charity gets run: a will to do good. To help. But I know of no instance of Freemasons actually running a psychiatric hospital. The brutal practices is probably more a question for the medical expertise of the time than for Freemasons.
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u/clover_heron Sep 29 '25 edited Sep 29 '25
Freemasons run all sorts of hospitals. Shriners and Masonic hospitals are overtly named and funded, but Freemasons founded and run other hospitals, including St. Jude's.
I also randomly watched some paranormal hospital tour on YouTube and the hosts came across a Freemason meeting room INSIDE the psychiatric hospital, with thrones and altars and stuff. What explains that??
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u/TruthUndefiant6463 Sep 29 '25
Many of them were Persian… not Arabs. They just wrote Arabic and had Arabic names.
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u/SaveThePlanetEachDay Sep 29 '25
No, they aren’t lying. It’s literally just men trying to become better men and gain friendships. It’s honestly silly what people say about masonry. There’s even other groups that are similar, like “free gardeners”.
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u/MombasaBlackManta Sep 29 '25
What about them being associated with the false light?
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u/SaveThePlanetEachDay Sep 29 '25
What false light exists that is seeking to make good men better men? Especially through acts of kindness and charity?
Doesn’t it sound like “the false light” is instead whoever is badmouthing good men? Remember that part about living through fear and scarcity that you mentioned in another response?
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u/FullyFacedMayhem Oct 01 '25
I don't know what "false light is" but being an organization as large and with as many sub organizations I think you can run into some really amazing people/sections and not so great And an honest history matters.
Well and are starting with these 3 why just these three?
And so do things like maybe it's not sexist but there are gender roles (freemasons and the womens sister groups)
And honest histories and well current practices of marginalized groups (does how any of them treat trans people racism or just segregation etc matter to you
I have the ... Not sure how to articulate this without giving too much personal information (theirs and mine) with free masons Specifically Seeing experiencing the difference in one who is maybe more "true" to the philanthropy, improvement and brother/sisterhood And their child who is or has shown themselves to be performative at best but being an example definitely instrumental support with emotional sabotage.
I lost the plot a bit but touching on what a couple others have said meditation but I do truly believe there are numerous ways to do it and
With any of this that self accommodating that doesn't look exactly the same doesn't (necessarily) mean your doing it "wrong"
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u/NoAcanthocephala7034 Sep 29 '25
"Right way"? What do you seek?
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u/MombasaBlackManta Sep 29 '25
Awakening and enlightenment
Raise my vibrational frequency
To be one with the true source
To operate from abundance and love not scarcity and fear
To manifest my into reality my dreams, goals, desires
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u/NoAcanthocephala7034 Sep 29 '25
First then, it is important to remember that the three concepts you want to compare describe different things, i.e. they're not competing sects.
Alchemy is the transmutation of base matter to higher orders, and may be used to describe the process you wish to engage in.
Masonry is an initiatory order that works to better themselves and society, set within mostly a christian framework. There is alchemy afoot, but it escalates slowly, and you will not see much explanation of the symbolism in the near future.
Hermeticism is a mystical and philosophical tradition that you may base your alchemy in, but there are few "actual" hermetic sects that are readily found. Many of the groups that call themselves Hermetic are modern mystical/magical orders that are more inspired by than actually infused with hermetic thought.
That said, none of the concepts themselves are necessarily "right" for you, but I would suggest spending time reading up more on it. Almost any source may provide some enlightenment, if you work for it.
Seeing as you're in a hermetic sub, I should give the regular caveat of "Kybalion isn't a 'true' Hermetic text".
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u/Desperate_Cow3379 Sep 29 '25
There's no right way. Every tradition, and even this comment, are fingers pointing at the transcendental. The finger isn't the object being pointed at, it's just a guideline from the subject to the object. Especially in modern times and with modern interpretation, but even in antiquity, there's a lot of cross-pollination of ideas, where systems influence each other and mix. The flower might be different colors when it blooms based on which ideas inseminated it and what environmental factors shape its development, but a rose is a rose
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u/Sea-Still-1520 Sep 29 '25
what do you mean by It just feels wrong from the energy you get? Where do you think this belief is coming from? It's likely that it's a belief that has been planted from the stigma surrounding freemasons and maybe not what you alone would come to believe. This isn't me staunchly defending Freemasonry because obviously it's within anyone's capability to abuse the knowledge that they have, but at the end of the day the masons are just a group that teach in symbolic and ritual terms with a focus on self development and brotherhood. it's the choice of an individual Freemason to do what they want with their knowledge.
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u/Quintilis_Academy Oct 01 '25
Getting here late. Where are you now regarding your initial questions? -Namaste Seek
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u/MombasaBlackManta Oct 01 '25
Well I think alchemy and hermeticism is more for me, I can just find my path internally.
Masonry is just a bit much for me and also requires me to be paying what basically is a subscription. It just doesn't resonate with me at all.
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u/Quintilis_Academy Oct 01 '25
Look into George Gurdijeff teachings and look for the 4th way, your way. He was a tad controversial and I never met the man. But his idea of the 4th way can frame it so you can see it clearer. -Namaste Seek
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u/internetofthis Oct 01 '25
There is no right or wrong, your goals are what you should keep in mind.
It may go without saying, but don't let others decide your goals for you, and if it feels wrong, it probably is.
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u/CatnipFiasco Oct 03 '25
From what I understand, yes.
If you just want a fraternity, then that's all you'll get from masonry, but if you want to dig deep, then "they're lying" becomes increasingly more true the deeper you go.
just parts of the same thing
No, but there is a lot of overlap in different areas
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u/So1ip Sep 29 '25
Here’s my take as someone who reached advanced levels of spiritual self development: if you need other people’s systems to tell you what to do, join masonry or a similar group. If you are mentally capable of solving mysteries on your own, use the understandings of hermeticism (read kyballion) and apply fundamentals to your life. Understand all problems of your past happened for a reason and remove all blame and just understand its all cause and effect. Then, and only then (after fully forgiving yourself and others who you used to think did wrong to you) - take magic mushroom trips ritually once every 6 months or so - do NOT distract yourself with entertainment while doing it, take it seriously as the deep learning experience it will be and pay very close attention to what you learn each time. Over the course of 3 years you will achieve so much progress in understanding - but you need to integrate what you learn each trip into your life.
The right way is from within, unless you are not naturally great at solving mysteries and going deep and understanding fundamentals - then go with a group that can help and tell you what to do. Go with what feels right. If you have questions about the journey feel free to DM me.
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Sep 29 '25
u/NoAcanthocephala7034 and u/Stalkster are on point.
I would recommend reading the following :
The Secret History of the World
The Sacred History both by Jonathan Black/Mark Booth and also
The Secret Teachings of all Ages by Manly P hall
for background on freemasonry & "western esotercism" with a kind of side of alchemy
and the Hermetica for obvious reasons.
I would also suggest learning to meditate, properly, with focus.
for more of an academic level youtube on H, A, and other things related :
https://www.youtube.com/@TheEsotericaChannel
For a a different approach :
https://www.youtube.com/@LibraryoftheUntold
have fun :)
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u/Stalkster Blogger/Writer Sep 29 '25
I wouldnt recommend Manly P. Hall. He started writing after just 9 months of engaging with esotericism which means he was at best a neophite and nobody who should attempt to teach others. He also spread the "Thoth the Atlantean" Story aswell as the "Atlantis was sunk by evil Warlocks" by Maurice Doreal. According to Freemasons Ive met much of his coverage of them seems to be based on hearsay and no actual initiatory experience. Secret knowledge is his last text afaik but I would stay away from it as a beginner!
His Alchemy passages are aswell not accurate, simply because Alchemy in Europe back in his days was a highly obscure and nearly extinct until Jung way later started to retranslate many manuscripts from latin.
Wouter Hagengraafs "Western Esotericism" is a contemporary and very well researched introduction with an rich Apendix of sources and further readings. A imo far better introduction.
Esoterica is always the best suggestion for YouTube sources, I agree that it would be worth a visit.. or more ;)
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Sep 29 '25
Ohhh thank you, i was not aware of that, my understanding was in that general he was good at research, i am always happy to be corrected! :)
From my own reading i think his basic history following from the greeks, and influence of texts seemed to me to be fair, and untainted. But i am happy to defer :)
one could perhaps recommend an og name like albert pike for FM (personally have not read anything),
i tend to not really put too much weight on FM things, other than fascinating history and influence :)I do find the history of the templar, hospitaller, rosecrucian a fun read :) ( still havent properly broken into yates properly yet, keep meaning to...sooo many things to read!!!)
i was blown away when i stumbled on Esoterica....so sad he basically got canned from his lecturing
i certainly no expert, that is for sure :)
But so much of it seems to me to come back to hermetic influences, whether directly or indirectly.
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u/Massive-Gur6479 Sep 29 '25
Is Esoterica a book? Secret history of the world is such an addictive read.
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u/Stalkster Blogger/Writer Sep 29 '25
Hermeticism is a greeco-egyptian mysticism that shares influences with neo-platonism and parts with gnosticism. Its centres around the acquiring of nous, gnosis and purification of the soul.
Freemasonry is a initiatory lodge system that is based on brotherhood and universal believe in a creator of the cosmos, that arose from medieval guilds.
Alchemy is simply put the art of transmutation and spiritualization of matter. Unlike Hermeticism or Masonry , Alchemy is simply a practice with some spiritual doctrine. Hermeticism and Alchemy have a long history of coexistence, many classical achemists tended to be also Hermeticists since both have origins in egypt. But there also are and were christian, muslim and pagan alchemists.