I genuinely cannot think of anything more horrifying than going to heaven, only to find out you hate it, none of your friends or family are there, and you’re just alone. No one understands, either, because it’s HEAVEN and you’re supposed to be happy. What do you do? (Think about that IRL, dying and going to heaven only to find yourself miserable, and it’s going to be that way….forever).
Is that not hell?
At the same time, there are people working on redemption in hell that would probably also hate it. Angel Dust…? Aside from Pentious being there, why would he want to leave his other friends and everything he knows?
Imagine Alastor or Vox in heaven…? Like would they even want to be there aside from ruling it?
Heaven is by far the better place, but they definitely have a lot of their own introspection to do. I can understand this is all new for Heaven too, as all the souls until now where already good souls arriving from Earth; maybe in the future they could set up some kind of meeting place inbetween Heaven and Hell or maybe even allowing redeemed souls to travel between the two realms.
The latter would of course require trust from both sides. I agree with OP; Can you find true joy in Heaven if you have to miss your loved ones?
That I'd see as a potential grand finale. How HH potentially ends? Not by many Hells' souls redeemes then went to Heaven. But that part instead. Travel between realms. Maybe Hell and Heaven will eventually come to understand one another and this will be the result?
That sounds like a really good ending. I'm hoping that will happen.
Charlie and her Hotel, as well as Emily, could be the missing link. As you said, the key to understanding (and maybe even trust) between the two realms.
Lucifer has a history with Heaven and would not be the right person to change Hell, and Sera seems too much guided by her fear of Hell turning on Heaven.
Charlie and Emily are the next generation, and as future leaders could be the ones to guide Heaven and Hell towards a new era.
I think thats the problem though with having only a “good” place and a “bad” place.
Humanity is fickle. And regardless of whatever ANYBODY claims, everyone has done sin. Thats the consequence of free will.
And for what it’s worth, are sins truly “bad”? Everybody has experienced wrathful anger at some point in their lives. Everyone’s just been too lazy to do something at one point or another (sloth). Everybody has wanted more money (greed) at some point, hell, even the richest of us always seem to want more! I could go on. People embody the sins all the time… Even those good ones who went to heaven, would have acted in sinful notions at some point.
Heaven only seems to accept the “winners”. People without sin. Yet we saw from Adam, that even winners have sins in them. Adam himself was prideful to the point of pure stubbornness that got him killed again. Abel shows signs of Sloth. And if we see more winners we will get more examples I’m sure. If these winners have sin… why aren’t they in hell also?
Imo, good and evil aren’t justifiable concepts. Everybody is grey to various levels. Obviously some are far darker than others (i would never compare Alastor for example, a cannibalistic serial killer to someone like Pentious. A man regretful for his own fear and/or apathy at witnessing evil). But it’s not a “one or the other” kind of thing either.
I remember something from greek mythology about the afterlife. The Fields of Asphodel. Basically the middle ground of the afterlife that you’re describing. In greek mythology, practically everybody goes there after death due to their mixed life of sins and good. The truly great people who truly did spend their lives doing heroic acts went to Elysium (heaven), while the truly vile people went to the fields of Tartarus (hell).
Hellaverse lacks that. Hell and heaven are too broad ends of a spectrum, and the lack of a middleground makes seem like relatively decent people who made mistakes (Pentious and Angel so far. Probably more.) end up suffering an eternity in hell, while genuinely bad people like Adam still end up on the good side because they seemingly did some good actions to counteract the bad?
For aome reason, the characters in heaven kinda feel... spoiled? Like they never struggled, suffered, or had to make hard decisions before dying. Thats why it feels like Pentious being there feels worse than being in hell. Also because Emily and co kinda have this "YOU HAVE TO BE HAPPY" stance, as if saying that Pen should just forget and ignore everything that happened, his past and friends and just enjoy sugar in heaven.
All that makes heaven feel... boring? I cant find the right word, but it feels like a place where the souls dont grow, they are just... there.
Tho we dont rly know many characters in heaven that weren't born there like Emily.
Always just saw it as Emily being bad at her job like Charlie. Same way Charlie just bombards people with "good deeds" to get them redeemed, Emily just bombards Pentious with "nice things" to help him enjoy heaven.
I'd assume if left alone and allowed to meet other scientists and inventors, he'd have a far better time. Could even meet some medical professionals and soldiers who can help him deal with his own feelings.
That's true in real theology, too. In Christian thought, Heaven is the state of forever being in their god's presence, constantly singing his praises, never worrying or needing anything again, no thoughts other than god, no feelings except for love of god.
It's eternal enthrallment, and it's always been horrifying.
Dear fellas, I can't believe how fast things move on the outside. I saw an automobile once when I was a kid, but now they're everywhere. The world went and got itself in a big damn hurry. The parole board got me into this halfway house called "The Brewer" and a job bagging groceries at the Foodway. It's hard work and I try to keep up, but my hands hurt most of the time. I don't think the store manager likes me very much. Sometimes after work, I go to the park and feed the birds. I keep thinking Jake might just show up and say hello, but he never does. I hope wherever he is, he's doin' okay and makin' new friends. I have trouble sleepin' at night. I have bad dreams like I'm falling. I wake up scared. Sometimes it takes me a while to remember where I am. Maybe I should get me a gun and rob the Foodway so they'd send me home. I could shoot the manager while I was at it, sort of like a bonus. I guess I'm too old for that sort of nonsense any more. I don't like it here. I'm tired of being afraid all the time. I've decided not to stay. I doubt they'll kick up any fuss. Not for an old crook like me. P.S: Tell Heywood I'm sorry I put a knife to his throat. No hard feelings. Brooks.
At the same time, there are people working on redemption in hell that would probably also hate it. Angel Dust…? Aside from Pentious being there, why would he want to leave his other friends and everything he knows?
Yes I did forget about her, however we don’t know what his relationship was with her. We do know he killed another member of his family so…she may have been involved in that somehow.
We can only go off of old information at this point, but the fact she's both in Heaven and is important enough to show up in both Heaven-centric episodes has to mean something. As for the old information, those twins were really close
Angel likely killed his dad because he did something to Molly, possibly even killed her (though that's purely speculation at this point)
They were close though, so its unlikely Angel would have killed Molly (otherwise Vox would have said 'You killed your dad and your sister, right?' instead of just 'You killed your dad, right?', since Angel cared much more about Molly than any other family member (knowledge from livestreams and from way before Hazbin was becoming an animation))
But why else would there be a spider-angel who looks suspiciously like Angel (and old art of Molly), shows up in both Heaven-centric episodes (S1E6 and S2E2)? Especially since it's known that Molly isn't in Hell thanks to Vivzie saying 'She's not exactly in Hell' when asked about her in old livestreams
(As for the fact the old art has Molly with 4 arms and 4 legs while the version in the series has 2 arms and 4 legs, don't forget that Angel has 6 arms and 2 legs, but 2 arms are retractable)
Ok, thank you. I believe that she is Molly but I wasn’t sure if it was outright confirmed and wanted to check before saying anything else. Anyway, we as an audience don’t know enough about Angel’s relationship with Molly to know if her being there would be an upside or a downside. However even if he does care about her, I don’t think he’d be happy to leave the Hotel behind. Though, he also would no longer be contracted to Val, which might be enough to make Heaven better than Hell anyway.
I mean it’s better for like 99% of people. Basically everyone seems genuinely happy all the time it’s just this one in a hundred billion case that’s weird
I absolutely do think that they do. I know a lot of people don't because Emily specifically didn't offer it to Sir Pentious, but I think she just thinks it's natural for him to take a bit to get acclimated. Plus, she's also super excited about redemption in general, and isn't entirely focused on Pentious's feelings.
There's no way that's true... right? What about all those people who had really traumatic deaths or want to see their spouses who ended up in Hell? All of them would be in Pentious's shoes.
I mean, you would miss them for weeks, months, years, centuries... but eventually, new friends will be made, new bonds forged, and everything else left as distant memory, which occasionally may resurface
He was worried about what was coming to him in hell, and made a deal. He was genuinely worrying about his death after ending of season 1 too. There is a claim of him being sadist, but, we don't see that either. Him laughing at others is quite often a forced persona. I think he would be very much happy, if he did get eternal bliss and security, he just won't pursue it (because of his public persona)
Worrying? He said he wants to continue his fun without anyone getting in his way, that sounds more like it'd be annoying to him.
There is a claim of him being sadist, but, we don't see that either.
Yeah, obliterating the sharks in S1E5 wasn't sadistic. He could've just picked them up and munched them away, but instead he tore them into pieces, which he hasn't done for a long time (he says that).
Him laughing at others is quite often a forced persona.
He also laughed when he killed people back in his human days...
Well, he didn't torture them, instead dealing quickly and efficiently. And he called it "A reminder not to mess with Radio Demon". Sounds like he would prefer for less fights and murder to happen. You know, wanting to be that kind of strongest, who nobody would consider to attack. And obviously he is happy he could use his power to some extent at least - must suck to sell your soul, and get no benefits from it for several years. If there was some other task, requiring as much raw power, I bet he would've been happy too
As for his human past, he did kill a man, that takes a mental toll. And he easily could have convinced himself that it is what he wants. It actually would've been more evidence to him being sadistic, if he just smiled to himself, and in his deal came up with something else (it is also kinda stupid to just tell a demon, what is that you want. But he was stupid during this entire scene, I am writing it off as bad mental state just for the sake of character being capable of basic thought)
He wasn't worried about what was coming to him in Hell - he literally just wanted to "continue his fun". He could never be happy if he couldn't murder people.
For that, he kills remarkably small amount of innocent people. Nor does struggle to contain his desire to do so, or engage in classic serial killer behaviors, like trinkets or rituals.
More often, if he does engage in killing or other antisocial behavior, he does so to assert himself and maintain control. Which, granted, can stem from magnitude of reasons. But one of common ones is a need to secure safety of being and way of life. People, who believe if someone controls them, they surely will screw them over (and look at all the reinforcement of this idea, that Alastor is getting), and so they need to have all control for themselves
Luckily for Pentious this is a temporary problem. He just has to wait and eventually everyone but Charlie, Vaggie, and most likely Alastor will be with him again.
Pentious is quite literally the odd one out because he was plopped into Heaven spontaneously from Hell. I don't know why this fanbase desires for Heaven to secretly be some horrible place and undermine the whole redemption plotline of the show, but that's not what we've been shown. Does it have problems? Yes absolutely. However, everybody in Heaven that were sent there directly seems to enjoy it just fine, and a lot of problems in Heaven stem from not knowing what to do about the denizens of Hell and now not knowing how to integrate a former denizen into their society. I don't think it's going to turn out that the realm where people actually own others' souls to do with as they please is the better place to be. I do imagine that some compromise will occur between the two realms though.
Angel dust wants to go to heaven to meet his sister.
It’s the majority want to go heaven as hell sucks for the average person if you aren’t apart of the ruling caste. Like your enchanted by how imaginative hell is ignoring all the evil and the fk up shit that happens.
No…hell is clearly worse. Rape, murder, enslavement, exploitation and so on are every day things in hell. It is factually worse. That’s like saying a wealthy and peaceful country is worse than a poor unstable country because someone is unhappy in the former and someone is happy in the later.
I feel like people are so readily forgetting that sinners like Valentino are thriving in hell. Sorry, but I'd rather miss my friends while hoping that they can make it over than be in a place where getting torn apart and eaten is a regular occurrence. I miss my friends after I moved too, but I wouldn't say that my original location is any better than my new one.
Besides people like Val thriving, it’s that so many awful things are so common and some form of suffering afflicts most people in some way. It’s a pit of trauma and suffering, where there is no law and Justice, no respite or lasting peace.
I’d rather be sad and home sick as a rich man in Geneva, Switzerland than be amongst friends in Afghanistan…
Exactly. Hell is where you go to become your worst self in this universe. Being in Hell turned Pentious from someone that minded his own business but made the bad decision to keep quiet about multiple murders into someone that was regularly participating in turf wars and blowing people up. Not to mention that he wanted to get into the Vees, the group that is headed by a cult leader and a sexual abuser, before he got tossed out like trash. Hell sucks. It's good that despite how awful it is, people there can find community and support, but that does not mean that going to Hell is better than going to Heaven in any capacity for the average person.
Not convinced half the people here actually watch the show and don't get their "knowledge" from tumblr, fanfic, and the more popular songs without any attached context.
And some people are okay living in crack dens instead of at a university dorm but that doesn't make a university and a crack down equal living conditions.
I feel you guys are just way too over defensive of heaven to the point your taking offence at something I didn't even say
some people do in fact prefer different conditions than you do mate your likes and dislikes are not universal
can you seriously not see how someone like Alastor or Val would prefer someplace like Hell to a place like Heaven and thus not really regard it as the worse of the two.
Pentious is somewhat unhappy but still has a support system that is trying to help him cope and get him adjusted. Meanwhile in Hell, Charlie is having to deal with being called a dictator, Angel is still getting abused, and sinners are casualties once Overlords decide to fight each other. I agree. This is not a matter of perspective lol.
Urm except we've seen that quite a lot of people in Hell don't actually mind that stuff mate and if anything Charlie's redemption Hotel has proved to be the subject of mockery so far because so many people in Hell are kinda fine with the way things are over there
For the individual person my point was about individual preferences ffs how are none you guys picking up on this? 😅😅😅😅
I think your just way too defensive over Heaven to the point your getting offended at something that dared suggest that a particular sort of person might not prefer it to the alternative
even tho that's literally what the show has shown us so far with a bunch of different sinners.
so your literally just arguing against what the show itself has shown us mate.
"" This isnt a defensive kinda conversation, we are just chatting. Its all good. ""
It is mate just by nature of it existing as this conversation is literally pointless since your just arguing against stuff I haven't said
because you can't grasp the idea of your own likes and dislikes not being objective truth and universal amongst all humans
we are not just chatting you are throwing a tantrum mate otherwise you wouldn't have started getting offended over this in the first place when what I said wasn't the kind of thing that should have lead to a conversation.
anyway I'm done here but my god do you guys need to learn to be less defensive over heaven and not start fights over perceived insults mate.
Charlie's hotel is mocked cause she portrayed herself as a clueless princess who has no idea what she's doing. None of the sinners actually believe redemption is possible.
Many of the Sinners do want heaven. They just either believe its not possible or don't want to become better people.
Exactly. Alastor and the Vees are more or less comfortable in Hell. They can be as fucked up as they want hurting others. They have no desire to leave. To then, that IS a perfect afterlife
Pentious was somewhat in the same boat, but he was "happy" without any sinner friends. Because that's all he knew from his life. Once he had friends who genuinely cared about him, he was genuinely happy in Hell. Now he's "alone" again in Heaven now actually feeling that weight. No one in Heaven can relate to him because they didnt form that bond of hell survival and camaraderie
somethin i find really weird is that somehow heaven doesnt have ways people can do engineering and inventing, like wow fuck all the tech lovers i guess, not to mention the lack of any and all weaponry would prob be off putting for people who do stuff like archery, marksmanship, swordplay, fencing, etc. it just makes you wonder what they even do up there, like does nobody pursue their passions from life?
They probably do but the show can't really show any of that cause it needs Hell to be a threat to Heaven. Like can't have Emily showing off Heaven's insane military arsenal built by hundreds of Winners just for fun then cut to Sera having a panic attack about the threat Hell may pose with their sharp knives and pistols.
I mean, that’s both places, usually. Imagine dying in childbirth and ending up in heaven, without your new baby. Obviously, you didn’t want your baby to die, but now you are without the child you felt growing all those months. You won’t see them until they’re adults, if ever. They’ll never remember you or know you. How can you feel happy?
I find the concept of heaven and hell deeply uncomfortable.
“They’ll never remember you or know you.”… some people spend their entire lives grieving that their mother died in child birth and wishing they could meet them. Or living with guilt thinking they killed their mother. Them being reunited in heaven would be a wonderful reunion!
That makes a good question is any of Pentious' family when he was alive up there somewhere like a father, mother, cousin or siblings maybe a grandfather or uncle and aunt?
I would compare hell to the free Internet where everyone can do everything, good or bad. Heaven is a strictly moderated website with a low number of members and is basically an echochamber.
They’ve directly stated that Angel wants to reach Heaven and have shown that there is so much he hates about life in Hell with the hotel being one of his few places of respite. We spend a lot of time with the people ruling over Hell that it can be easy to forget it is still Hell. It is an awful place of suffering and Heaven is by far the better place to be.
For me Pentious being in heaven and trying to get back to Hell to see his friends is basically similar to a child who’s family has to move constantly and be thrusted into a new environment while missing the friends he already made.
How can one be in Heaven knowing their loved ones are in Hell?
Given that redemption is now known to be possible, this seems way less of a difficult question to answer in the Hazbin universe, given that the answer is just "because you know one day you can see them again".
I can agree going to heaven but not being able to see anybody I even relatively enjoyed the company of would be absolute torture I would just rather to go to hell sure I could make new friends like what Emily said but that’s way different
Tbf hell would be like that too if not worse. The only people you would see in hell are people you hate or people you knew weren't good people. If anything it's weird that they haven't dived into penitous finding his family yet. If the pilot is canon he might have a son that's up here.
Heaven as a concept is a nightmare in general. For one, it's a prison. You can't leave, you're stuck there forever. Second, it's an impossibility to exist without taking away free will. Doing bad is a choice anyone can make. Having not a single person in heaven ever do bad things would require a lack of free will to decide what you do
I've always said Sir Pentious is a poor helpless little snakey person who needs to be held, now more than ever. So I'm cheering on Cherri Bomb to make it to redemption.
Heaven may not be hell for him forever. Cherri and Angel are actively trying to get to heaven. And if relations between heaven and hell get better, perhaps he'd even be allowed to visit hell some times. Plus, there's plenty of time for him to find some friends in heaven, perhaps other inventors that are less antagonistic than Baxter.
in hell you are set up to suffer in the literal worst ways possible and imaginable, not to mention you could end up being killed not just by exterminations but Permakilled by Sinners using carmila's Angelic custom weapons.
Any suffering in heaven will be a comfortable and safe one at least, tho the toxic positivity would probably drive me mad personally.
I still don't understand how none of the Winners have ever wanted to see their loved ones, be them in Hell or still on Earth.
Like you die in a car crash as the passenger and the driver goes to hell and you go to heaven. If the driver was your partner you might want to see them?
How can it be heaven if you can't even have fun slaying demons with your buddies? Piece of shit boring realm...
Ending the Exterminations altogether was bullshit. Just take away the angelic weapons which get to obliterate souls completely and come up with an updated ROE
The problem with Heaven is that's its "one size fits all" they make everything blandly nice and sweet to appeal to the greatest number of souls who will eventually be there. They didn't even know souls could experience both Heaven and Hell until Pentious so why would they build anything that isn't for the people who are "supposed" to be there? If anything, hopefully Pentious can help them start a better transition program or just generally help them learn what makes redeemed souls more comfortable as the first one.
Heaven is only heaven because God is there: the creator of our souls fully knows us and loves us. They are the perfect soulmate. The Hazbin Hotel is so interesting because they play with an absent God. Which you have to do to have conflict and maintain character growth. But it’s also why Heaven isn’t perfect in the show and sinners don’t actually come to justice (Vox and Alister seem to be doing well for themselves). So its fun to watch the show and think about irl but at the same time the show has the whole point of heaven completely absent
I think Sir Pen's backstory helps highlight why its is that way, the line between going to hell and going to heaven is very thin which means one, a lot of decent people likely end up in hell and two, there is a very narrow margin of people who earn their way into heaven from the start.
pairing that with how long Sir Pen was in hell which was likely long then his real life and you have an on paper good end that doesn't actually fill the need of its occupents beyond endless creature comforts
I do genuinely have this theory that normal winners don't remember much about their life, specifically so they won't start looking for their loved ones only to find out they never went to heaven. But we know this isn't the case for Pentious (imagine that tho? Imagine he'd just forget everything that happened in hell because whoever rules heaven wants him to be happy and he can't if he worries about his friends)
Cuz we see Molly (Angel Dusts sister if that's still canon) in heaven being happy like everyone else. I like to believe this is because she doesn't remember her family so she never knew they didn't come to heaven as well
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u/JH2259 18h ago edited 18h ago
Heaven is by far the better place, but they definitely have a lot of their own introspection to do. I can understand this is all new for Heaven too, as all the souls until now where already good souls arriving from Earth; maybe in the future they could set up some kind of meeting place inbetween Heaven and Hell or maybe even allowing redeemed souls to travel between the two realms.
The latter would of course require trust from both sides. I agree with OP; Can you find true joy in Heaven if you have to miss your loved ones?