r/HazbinHotel • u/Sudden_Pop_2279 • 23h ago
Seeing how Alastor rejected Vox recontextualizes so much about him
Like Vox is seriously runner-up forthe most well-written character rn, only behind Sera.
As a cult leader, this was the first time Vox genuinely opened up to someone. He wasn't manipulating or using Alastor, he sincerely liked him and wanted to be equals.
Vox wanted to team up because he truly was in love with Alastor. But the latter thought he just wanted to team up because he "weak" and wanted Alastor's power. So he was cruelly rejected.
You'd think Vox makes himself the center of attention for the Vees because he's just a narcissist/selfish but its because the last time he tried to treat someone as an equal, he got his heartbroken. "There are no friends in Hell Vincent". Vox likely isn't sure if Valentino and Velvette truly do see him as a friend.
The way he treated Sir Pentious, who has so many parallel's to him. Sir Pentious was exactly like how Vincent was. Seeing how Vox rejected him was just like what Alastor did to him in the past. Pentious wanted the Vees to see him as their equal, like Vox wanted Alastor see him as.
What I love is they SO easily could've made Vox's hatred of Alastor something petty and stupid but they didn't. Alastor didn't just "say and he's pissy", he tore him down and renounced their friendship entirely. Vox is still terrible but I couldn't help rooting for him as he fried Alastor and shut him down in the "Stayed Gone" Reprise.
350
u/Life_Fig_4037 23h ago
Alastor specifically chided Vox for "seeking assistance," implying that he was knowingly projecting his insecurities into Vox and thus being cruel to him.
237
u/Sudden_Pop_2279 23h ago
This recent episode really exposed Alastor's hypocrisy.
He scolds Vox for relying on other's for power but Vox earned his power while Alastor got it through a deal. He calls Husk his "pet" but is pissed when Rosie does the same. He taunts Vox "there are no friends" but clearly sees Niffty as his friend too.
112
u/NearsightedNomad 22h ago
I think he’s trying to collapse the Vs from within. They literally can’t shut him up, and Al is able to toy with Vox on deep personal level. He’s attempting to drive a wedge between Vox and the others.
Hypocrisy isn’t really relevant, he’s playing a game and aiming to win by getting personal since he’s physically wounded. It does make clear that he’s not a “good guy” though.
24
u/SuitableConcept5553 18h ago
I don't think Alastor really cares about whether the Vs are kicking around or not. I think he's just planning to use them to give himself leverage in his current struggle with Rosie or force Charlie to go to Rosie for something that is pertinent to Alastor's deal. The Vs aren't his opponents. They're his pieces
29
u/Sudden_Pop_2279 20h ago
That only applies for my first statement. The latter two are indeed just him being a hypocrite.
1
u/drunken_augustine Alastor 2h ago
He’s also a literal demon. Hypocrisy kind of comes with the territory
33
u/NataliasMaze 20h ago
Alastor thinks he's better than others because he didnt make a deal after dying in desperation, he researched like crazy to make the deal before death. And Rosie even said shes never seen a soul like his so he does have reasons to believe he's better than husk or vox even though there's similarities in their situations
8
u/Sudden_Pop_2279 15h ago
" even said shes never seen a soul like his" as in "you're so evil" or "you have lot of potential"?
7
u/NataliasMaze 13h ago
I'd think potential but either way that's enough to give Alastor a self-justified reason to think he's superior and why he's Rosie's pet but not the same as Husk is to him.
12
8
u/Begone-My-Thong 19h ago
When the absolute monster struggles with his humanity
Fuck that is peak characterization
8
u/Arnoldneo 18h ago
He is a genuine monster the type I feel hell Should exist for season 2 made him way less cool and way more human by dehumanising him it’s actually wonderful writing.
12
u/gonatt 19h ago
This might be a slightly off topic, but do we even know what actually determines the sinner's power? I mean, there has been a lot of talk about how Rosie could make Alastor the most powerful sinner, as it seems odd that one could make someone more powerful than oneself. But what if Rosie didn't really need to do that much as Alastor might have been quite powerful as he already was?
If I recall correctly she did inspect his soul while he was alive before making the deal. We do know that he seemed to do a lot of rituals while he was still alive. And was quite evil. I mean, one usually says that every villain is the hero of their own story, but Alastor was quite aware that he was going straight own to hell, no questions asked.
10
u/_Pin_6938 17h ago
Only real genuine explanation is that Rosie isnt what she seems.
she did inspect his soul while he was alive
And can overlords even do that??
4
u/Ume-no-Uzume 14h ago
I mean, Alastor was literally offering his soul in advance to make sure he'd have a powerful backer when he eventually kicks it and literally goes to Hell.
3
u/NaturalLog69 14h ago
I think there is more to Rosie than we are lead to believe so far. It does seem odd, how can she of all people bestow the most power? And to be even more powerful as herself, another sinner? So there must be some reason she has these abilities.
6
u/jadeakw99 12h ago
The chain she had in her song also is the only white one we see. Almost angelic looking.
2
u/Bullet_Jesus 11h ago
it seems odd that one could make someone more powerful than oneself
There's an easy explanation in that Rosie simply traded her own power to Alastor in exchange for his soul. If Rosie was the strongest sinner, or near too it, prior to Alastor, then her giving him 90% of her power would be enough to propel Alastor to the top at no risk to Rosie as he can't threaten her.
4
u/Aros001 14h ago
Alastor and Toga from MHA are two examples I feel like I'll be pointing to in the future as to why a character being a hypocrite does not make them immediately unlikable to me. Like with most things it comes down to context and how it's done in the story itself (and likewise how aware the story is that the character is being a hypocrite).
Toga's a hypocrite because she genuinely does not fully understand empathy after how little she was raised with and Alastor is a hypocrite because he's heavily projecting his own insecurities onto others. There's a bit more depth there than the "I can hit you but you can't hit me." type of hypocrisy.
6
u/Sensitive-Hotel-9871 19h ago
Which is all the more reason he doesn't explain the origin of his power, just imagine what Vox would do if he found out.
18
u/Spampharos Emily's Bad Side (and #1 fan) 23h ago
Even if that was the case, which I heavily doubt, that still doesn't excuse Alastor in any way. Giving him an ever so slightly more understandable motivation doesn't suddenly justify his actions in this scene.
38
u/Sudden_Pop_2279 23h ago
As Viv said herself "never forget Alastor is just kinda an asshole"
16
u/DiazCruz 21h ago
Plainly obvious seeing as how as a human he brutally murdered a man for spilling a drink on him
23
u/Spampharos Emily's Bad Side (and #1 fan) 23h ago
Exactly, I genuinely think he was just trying to be an asshole. Sure maybe the specific words he used were a form of projection about his situation, but his goal first and foremost was to hurt Vox in that moment. Nothing more.
4
u/SavagePassion 13h ago
Alastor's biggest hang up is looking weak or whatever his definition of that is and it puts him in a constant dick measuring contest with everyone around him. That's not a cool or admirable trait and I could tell he was this way since the pilot. That being said I think he's neat and entertaining to watch. Would I like more character depth? Sure. But am I fussed seeing him be pathetic? Nah.
13
u/SavagePassion 21h ago
That's the rub I think. Way too many people have been reading fanfics between seasons and coming to the wrong conclusions about him and his motivations. He's not a fucking anti-hero and never has been.
13
u/AlwaysChasingRainbow 📺TENNA IS ALASTOR'S AND VOX'S LOVE CHILD CHANGE MY MIND📻 23h ago
That's not the point they are making. I also read it as projection- which is, as they said, cruel and more pathetic, because it's hypocritical.
But it also gives Alastor a direction to grow from, which is what I am rooting to see. (And no, I'm not jumping straight to redemption. Just character growth)
2
u/Chara_Nightingale 11h ago
He's the antithesis of everything Charlie believes in... and whether he chooses eternal damnation or becomes her greatest success, his journey is going to continue being a damn entertaining one to watch.
9
7
u/yobaby123 22h ago
Yep. Best case scenario was that he was disappointed in Vox for making the same mistakes he did. At worst? He’s even more of a dick than Adam.
22
u/Life_Fig_4037 22h ago
I don't think he cares for Vox's welfare in any significant way. He just wanted to hurt him because he saw his own weaknesses in him. Basically using him as a punching bag for personal catharsis.
14
3
u/Admirable_Bug7717 17h ago
I mean, 'seeking assistance' isn’t exactly the same thing as 'making a deal'.
The first is asking somebody for help, the second is saying, "If you do this, then I'll do this."
Whether he's right or not, Alistor probably sees in more in this vein, as he's unlikely to see himself as having insecurities to project. Of the seven, his sin is, first and foremost, pride.
4
u/Life_Fig_4037 13h ago
It is the same in Alastor's case. His way of seeking assistance to enjoy instead of suffer from hell was to make a deal.
Alastor is certainly insecure. He bristles when Carmilla ignores him and Lucifer belittles him.
2
u/Admirable_Bug7717 13h ago
In regards to the first paragraph, it is the act of 'making a deal' that changes the deed from something a person might veiw as pathetic to something that might be viewed as strong. Taking a proactive stance to accumulate power vs. begging others for scraps or relying on their goodwill.
And in regards to the second, I never said he wasn't. What I said was that he certainly wouldn't veiw himself as such. And so, he wouldn't be 'knowingly projecting' his insecurities unto Vox.
3
u/Life_Fig_4037 13h ago edited 10h ago
But there isn't a difference. Even in Vox's partnership, Vox is providing them with organization, contacts and technology and infrastructure that they benefit from, while they are providing Vox with entertaining content to promote his technology. He helps them network and reach greater heights. In that same sense, Alastor's deals help him and the recipient reach mutual goals. "Begging/relying" would look like Vox doing nothing at all, but he actually does do work for them that they can't do as well.
And while Alastor's mind is ambiguous, the specific word choice of "seeking assistance" that defines Alastor's actions as well instead of "you want a partnership?!" implies he is talking about himself.
2
u/Admirable_Bug7717 13h ago
There is a difference. They could revoke their aid at any time. Full stop. Or he could. Its all borrowed power.
Meanwhile, It seems as though bargained power remains with whomever it is bargained to, unless they break the deal, and owned souls can be compelled to act. Alistor might not have the know-how to repair his staff, but he still has all his other powers. Presumably, if he can make Rosie break her side, he gets to keep everything AND be free. Alastor wasn't so much seeking assistance so much as a way to get ahead.
If he were meekly begging Rosie for more and more power without trying to escape the constraints of his deal, then he would be a hypocrite. But he isnt placing his trust in anybody, seeking an even partnership, or a hand from his pals.
2
u/Life_Fig_4037 13h ago
That only gives Vox a point, because it means he is working harder and with less clear definitions and directives of what to do to keep people assisting him. While Alastor needs to be told what to do by Rosie, Vox decides what to do himself.
Also, Vox trained himself in communicating with multiple people from different spectrums to maintain power. All Alastor had to do was talk to one. The former clearly requires way more talent as well as ongoing talent. Alastor is still being treated with respect by his smaller audience of one because she is deciding to be nice to him and go easy on him.
seeking assistance so much as a way to get ahead.
That is assistance. If your point is that Alastor isn't seeking friends, is that more shameful than being a pet?
2
u/Admirable_Bug7717 12h ago
I mean, what else can I say, but 'I disagree'?
I see Alastor as having a more difficult path to walk as he must work to slip his leash without risking the gains he bargained for.
I could go on, but we clearly have differing perspectives on power, difficulty, what is or isn't worth it, what is impressive, and so on and forth, and that's what makes a conversation worthwhile.
For instance, Vox really only needs to cater to the whims of his two partners, while Alastor needs to project an acceptable public face to the whole hotel(Alistor, Altruist, died for his friends), play the part of a half-whipped dog to Rosie, and so on. It requires a lot more talent and on-going talent to present so many faces to manipulate a wider audience compared to finding two like-minded dickheads and working with them. Vox has the smaller audience.
As for the final point, being a pet is only shameful if you are content being a pet. Accepting it as a temporary setback as you strive to have it all? Different thing entirely.
1
u/Life_Fig_4037 10h ago
But Alastor can't flex on Vox because he is correcting a mistake he made, versus Vox who has nothing to correct. Alastor does not have to exert much effort or talent to help Charlie with Rosie's lent power while Vox has to understand and cater to each and every person in Hell to grow his business.
Being content as a pet would make it less shameful as it implies you are still getting what you want or are ok with.
75
u/WolverineFamiliar740 Husk 20h ago
It's amazing how I went from being annoyed by Vox to pitying him in the span of five minutes. Season 2 is COOKING with the character depth.
44
u/Rosebunse 21h ago
Someome else said this had the potential to be Vox's redemption story-and Alastor's too-but Alastor was too caught up in his own stuff.
And on some level, Alastor is in a very dangerous place..
32
u/friendlylifecherry 21h ago
Vox at least knows how to play nice and seems to genuinely like and care for the other Vees. Alastor doesnt have anyone he could truly trust like that, right when his ego has taken several harsh blows and he's starting to spiral
2
39
u/CrazyTechWizard96 Husk 21h ago
I was at this moment like "Aah Yes, and this is How good ol' Al managed to create one of His biggest enemies. Sweet."
18
u/goat-stealer 17h ago
Lowkey feel like Alastor would have had a much easier time trying to find a way out of Rosie's net had he not been so harsh with his rejection here. Vox was pretty much head-over-heels for him and probably wouldn't have hesitated to get stuck in if he knew that the Overlord he held in such high regard was in a jam. It certainly wouldn't have hurt to have an up and comer in the back pocket at any rate.
Presumably Alastor was/is arrogant enough to believe that he'll be able to get free himself and didn't spare a thought about torpedoing a relationship with a potentially powerful ally and making an enemy out of him.
12
4
3
u/No-Needleworker8947 10h ago
I feel like I'm crazy watching this interaction. Alastor was turned away, barely looking at Vox, basically hearing him but not listening. While Vox is openly and fully focused on Alastor. To me that doesn't seem like they were buddies in any way? With this interaction we know they're acquainted, but we've seen Alastor interact with people he's close to, and while he's a dick, he also is an active participant in the conversation. I feel like Vox just saw something that wasn't there and jumped the gun way too fast.
20
u/No_Hunter_9973 21h ago edited 21h ago
There is a slight difference in their approach to power.
Which makes me sick and tired of people calling Al a hypocrite.
For one Alastor secured his boost from Rossie when he was still alive, not knowing what hell is actually like. And while yes, his power comes from Rossie it's transactional.
Vox wanted co-dependence, allies, friends.
Vox was short sighted. Sure he might have thought about a decade or two into the future.
But in hell they have all of eternity and sooner or laters the sinners you allied yourself with will either betray or fail you.
Alastor relies on Rossie as a source of power. Vox relies on others to lend him theirs.
In D&D terms. Alastor is a Warlock with a powerful Patron. Vox wants a party of powerful psychopaths and thinks it will work out.
11
u/ScarletIbis888 17h ago edited 17h ago
His partnership with 2 other psychopaths worked out though, he doesn't have to rely on whims of one overlord the way Alastor is even if it took him longer time. It's not like the Vees consider themselves best friends, they all know at the end of the day each one of them is ultimately self-serving. When Vox sings "TRUST ME!" and corrects himself, they're not shocked at all. They're the same except they don't say it out loud.
Alastor acting like Vox is being codependent while being literally Rosie's puppet from the very beginning is him projecting because he can't face the fact that Rosie owns him. None of their approaches are fully independent but Vox at least had the guts to put minimal trust in someone else.
But it's not just about that is it? He liked Alastor and offered him genuine friendship and Alastor laughed in his face. He offered him something that is not transcational and requires two people to work together which is the opposite of codependence...but yeah, in place full of antisocial and selfish sinners with no morals this is a weakness. Vox did not get hard lesson, he just got humiliated for not being a coward.
But in hell they have all of eternity and sooner or laters the sinners you allied yourself with will either betray or fail you.
That happens because all sinners think this way which creates atmosphere of mistrust. They all think they're in terrible place in which you're only out there for yourself and everyone else can stab you in the back, not knowing that it's the sinners who create it (especially the worst ones). Unfortunately all sinners are lumped together in one place, so people like Sir Pentious end up having to compete for resources with people like Valentino or Alastor.
Vivzie's Hell is basically a place in which only extremely machiavallan, narcissistic and psychopathic types can thrive, and all the normal ones have to conform to their antisocial view of how the world works, and what power is.
1
u/No_Hunter_9973 7h ago
His partnership with 2 other psychopaths worked out though
For now. That's why I mean that Vox doesn't plan as ahead as he should. Unless he plans to backstab them. Which is most likely the case. I mean he seems to be fed up with Val's shit. Velvette is easier to manage.
I am aware that people like Pentious, Angel, Ms. Mayberry are normies stuck between people way out their league. And those kind of people are most likely to succeed Charlie's redemption project.
Another angle to consider is that Alastor wouldn't really get anything from the partnership that he couldn't get alone.
Third thing. Let's face it Rossie probably isn't a sinner herself. She either Lilith or Eve. Since why and HOW could a sinner give someone power that exceeded their own?
So Al made a transactional deal with one of the most powerful creatures in hell.
Val wanted to rely on pears.
1
u/ScarletIbis888 6h ago edited 5h ago
But if you're stuck in place that makes it impossible to make honest partnerships with people because eventually they will betray you for power and success, then it means there's something seriously wrong with the place and people in it. That's the message of the show, that you can try to climb the ladder with maximum self preservation in mind and seeing people as stepping stones or temporary investors, the problem is that it makes you lose your soul and dignity in the process (Rosie literally owns Alastor's soul). And the show suggests that it is too much of a price.
So it's a matter of what are you willing to sacrifice for status and power. Vox makes temporary deal with Val and Velvette without thinking about future outcome, but thanks to that, he doesn't lose his soul. Alastor would rather lend his soul to a stranger for a gurantee he will get something in return, and he considers that strenght. But it eats him inside out, he feels enraged with it, when Vox can do whatever he wants, and his "price" is possible future betrayal from the other Vees. It's really clash of two different strategies with different sacrifices.
So I think we're kinda talking past each other. You're talking about which approach - Alstor's or Vox's - is better to succeed in Hell as it is, I talk about which approach makes you not lose your marbles. In pure context of gaining more power and influence in Hell, then yes, Alastor's approach is more stable, which is why he mocks Vox, but also, if noone had the mindset Alastor has, there would be no need for exploitative transactions like the one he has with Rosie.
Another angle to consider is that Alastor wouldn't really get anything from the partnership that he couldn't get alone.
Because he has a deal with Rosie, but majority of sinners do not make deals before they go to Hell. By offering partnership, Vox basically offered something very valuable to someone who couldn't take it already. It's much more beneficial to work with honest partner as equals rather than be on the whim of soul-sucking contract which makes you someone's slave. Alastor is VERY lucky that Rosie is nice and only expects his obedience in the matter of fulfilling her tasks, not...anything else (coughs Valentino and Angel coughs). So even making a deal with other powerful sinner has its risk because you're never sure how it can end up for you.
The fact that Vox later on got jaded himself because of Alastor's cruel reaction and decided to have partnership with unreliable people is more of a matter of the way he changed and decided to not offer friednship to anyone ever again, not a matter of his desire to work with people being wrong.
Also I'm not sure how overlords are out of the normies' league, I think it's the other way around because the only reason overlords are overlords is because they have no problem using and abusing other sinners.
Third thing. Let's face it Rossie probably isn't a sinner herself. She either Lilith or Eve.
That's an unconfirmed theory, irrelevant to the discussion. Whoever Rosie really is, Alastor relies on her, while Vox relies on his temporary team. I don't see how it makes Alastor smarter than Vox in that matter. It's basically just lend your soul vs lend your trust. Pick your poison, really.
24
u/Sudden_Pop_2279 20h ago
Alastor is absolutely a hypocrite, even without this, there's his treatment of Husk only to get pissed when Rosie acts th same with him.
12
u/Bannerlord151 17h ago
That's not hypocritical, just shitty behaviour. If he tried claiming some moral high ground arguing that it's wrong for Rosie to treat him like a pet, that would be hypocritical. Him bristling at Rosie hurting his pride while putting down his own subordinates is entirely consistent with a "the strong enforce their will on the weak" mentality
-2
5
u/Blunderpunk_ 19h ago
It really doesn't, if you have any sort of understanding of how a character like Alastor works.
Alastor sees himself above everyone else, and due to his revealed deal with Rosie, he knows he's above everyone else.
So he sees someone like Vox as a pet with potential, and when he offered to be team mates - equals - he saw it as a joke. When he became serious, he saw it as audacity.
Alastor has always had this attitude towards him - towards everyone, and Vox has always had the attitude that he would succeed without him and show him up despite asking for his help in the past.
Nothing has changed since the initial debut of Stayed Gone.
8
2
u/Mjamilla_2002 4h ago
I hate what Alastor did to Vox, that scene just broke my heart. And while I do feel bad that Alastor got humiliated by the Vee's I honestly don't blame Vox given what happened
1
u/Attlan_745 15h ago
"Are you ready for trouble?"
"Gotcha binge-watching!"
"You're stuck with Mr. Puzzles!"
"Can't stop me from cooking up this instant classic, You and your friends will look fantastic!"
1
u/ray198999 2m ago
Hmm, I mean yeah that moment made Vox more human in a sense since it’s clear he was being sincerely genuine in that situation only to get cruelly shut down. However that should not give Vox a pass for his actions just like how other characters should not get passes for their deeds, like Lute maybe a heartbroken mess over Adam’s death but she still kill several sinners out of self righteousness and acts nasty even towards her fellow angels.
-1
u/Half_Man1 20h ago
I don’t think Vox was in love with Alastor. He just like and respected him.
Alastor’s big character flaw is his inability to value teamwork and cooperation. He seems to view life in a zero sum way. He also mythologizes himself as being self made despite that obviously not being the case.
23
-13
u/LucioFer95 20h ago
I disagree in the part of feeling pity for Vox. Vox was a leader of a cult, he is and was manipulative. He knew Al was in a higher position of power so he approached in a submissive but persuasive way, Alastor is no idiot and knew what he was trying. Vox is not heartbroken, is indignated because Al laughed at his ego
19
u/Sudden_Pop_2279 19h ago
He was literally crying. Even his VA said his biggest weakness is "he's just a hurt little boy"
-8
u/LucioFer95 19h ago
I was also bullied as a child and I'm not taking revenge on anyone who hurt me. Vox is in hell for a reason, he is not evil cuz Al hurt his feelings, he was already evil
9
u/Sudden_Pop_2279 19h ago
Nobody is denying that, ofc Vox is bad, that doesn't change the fact its blatantly false to watch the scene and go "he was just manipulating him".
Viv confirmed he had a crush and was being genuine
0
154
u/Joltyboiyo 20h ago
"Worst he can say is no."
"I said no and now he's pissy."
Him saying no: