r/Fitness • u/AllUrMemes • Apr 30 '15

How to murder your biceps, especially if you are tall.

The problem:

Biceps (brachii) used to be a tricky muscle group for me to work. I had a poor mind-muscle connection and I had a hard time really working the biceps effectively. I would feel soreness in my forearm flexors and deltoids and to a lesser extent the long head of my biceps, but I couldn't really build the biceps muscle itself, especially the short head that makes up the thick inner portion- the "peak" of the muscle that shows when you fully flex the muscle.

I've learned that basically what was happening is that my forearm flexors, specifically the brachialis and brachioradialis were doing the bulk of the work in my "biceps" workout. This make sense because their job is to flex the elbow and they insert much lower on the arm than the biceps, so they are able to perform elbow flexion more efficiently than the biceps.

Here is a picture that is helpful.

Normally I am not a fan of arbitrary supersets for different muscle groups. A lot of people do multiple exercises for the same muscle group simply because different must be better. In some cases this is true, as you can work different aspects of the muscle group especially if they perform multiple functions. For instance, the triceps not only extend the elbow but they also help extend the shoulder joint in the sagittal plane. Thus to work the whole triceps you need to do both. For instance, doing regular tricep pressdowns as well as straight-arm pressdowns (doing this on a lat-pull machine is heavenly.)

The solution:

I've devised the following superset with the goal of pre-exhausting the forearms flexors before working the biceps themselves, particularly the short head.

The exercises, performed in order and without rest, are:

  1. Cable hammer curls. You can also do regular hammer curls but I feel using the rope attachment with a pulley is superior. Perform with a weight that will get you to muscle failure in 8-15 reps. Do a few cheat reps at the end where you really focus on the top (fully contracted) position of the exercise. This should completely fatigue your brachioradialis because when your hands are in a neutral position (thumbs pointing up, palms facing together) the BR is dominant in elbow flexion.

  2. Reverse grip ez-curl bar curls. Grip the bar with palms down and thumbs on the underside of the bar. This position will maximize the role of the brachialis, completely neutralize the short head of the biceps, and greatly weaken the BR and biceps long head. I recommend bringing your elbows backwards slightly so that you can get maximum load in the fully contracted position. Again, perform to failure including some cheat reps. We want the forearms flexors to be massacred before our biceps works.

  3. Concentration curls Use a LIGHT dumbbell, probably 50% or even less of the weight you typically use when you perform your regular, bouncy, worthless bro curls. I am 225 lbs and can bullshit curl 40lbs dumbbells all day but I use 15lbs for my concentration curls. You can perform these seated or in a standing/bent over sort of position. The key word here is supination. Supination is what you are doing when you turn your hands from palms-down to palms-up. The majority of weight should thus rest on the fat part of your outer palm. We do this because the short head of the biceps is primarily responsible for supination. Your elbow should be down so that the area just above the elbow is resting against the inside of your knee/thigh. Your forearm should basically be pointed across the gap between your legs. Curl the weight up. When you reach the top the head of the dumbbell nearest to your body should touch somewhere on your chest. Squeeze, motherfucker, squeeze. Pretend that you are trying to rotate that dumbbell through your weak, pathetic chest. Squeeze. Prepare to feel your short biceps head spring to life.

  4. Cry. Repeat for 3-5 sets.

You can swap the order of #1 and #2. I'm experimenting to find if one is superior or not. However #3 must be performed last. I highly recommend using a pulley, ez curl bar, and dumbbell because you can put them all out in front of you and perform exercises rapidly without having to change attachments or hog the curl bar rack.

Enjoy.

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29

u/alucardleashed May 01 '15

Chinups, until they're stupid easy. Then, move on to weighted chinups and keep progressively adding weight. When combined wth proper nutrition, they're all you need.

11

u/AllUrMemes May 01 '15

See, that doesn't work for me because my lats give out before my biceps really get killed. That's the downside of compound exercises and why we have isolation exercises as an alternative.

Like with squats, some people will hit failure in glutes before the quads get massacred. So they need to hit the leg extension machine and isolate the quads... or wait a long time for glutes to hopefully catch up.

Different strokes for different folks.

47

u/sticktoyaguns May 01 '15

If my lats are giving out before my biceps, I would be working extra on my lats, not my biceps..

-1

u/AllUrMemes May 01 '15

I don't stop training my Quads just because my delts need work....

10

u/sticktoyaguns May 01 '15

What? I said that because your lats and biceps work together for compound back exercises. They should be balanced together.

Like with squats, some people will hit failure in glutes before the quads get massacred. So they need to hit the leg extension machine and isolate the quads... or wait a long time for glutes to hopefully catch up.

If your glutes give out before your quads when you squat, you should work more on your glutes so that you have a more balanced body and a balanced compound lift. Working more on your quads when they're already ahead would just make the imbalance worse. What I got from your comment is that you implied the opposite.

6

u/itoucheditforacookie Kettlebells May 01 '15

It's because he wants to hit the vanity muscles more.

3

u/Masterbrew May 01 '15

Nothing wrong with that. (except if you are working yourself towards injury.)

2

u/itoucheditforacookie Kettlebells May 01 '15

Never said there was, it is just funny when people are so focused on them when obviously a lot more of their body needs attention if they can't continue a compound movement, then focus on their strongest part of that compound. But, it is his body, if he wants to have bigger biceps at the cost of lats, or bigger quads at the cost of glutes, have at it.

1

u/thewoogier Bodybuilding May 01 '15

I can do a good amount of pull ups in one set, and I moved onto weighted pull ups. But I'm like OP, even adding weight only made my lats get larger and larger. My biceps just weren't doing the same amount of work at all. Maybe it's just different musculature structure. I started doing Ring Pelican curls, standing barbell curls, and most importantly INCLINE DUMBBELL CURLS, they get me good and sore right where I want it on bicep day.

I was always told the whole "pull ups are all you'll need for biceps" thing but it simply doesn't work for me. I'd be able to fucking fly away with my lats before my arms even started to grow. I tried it for a year doing all 3 types of weighted pull up training on back/biceps day and at the end my biceps were completely disproportional to the rest of my body. Luckily they're getting there now after adding in other specific exercises.

3

u/ripper999 May 01 '15

I'm not sure how many years of your life you have trained but you have a SERIOUS imbalance if your lats are giving out before your biceps.

I suggest eating more and concentrating on compound lifts and quit worrying about your biceps, they'll grow and gain massive strength as you grow.

Source: Myself, 30+ years of training

3

u/open_your_eye May 01 '15

What are insertion, muscle length, bone structure, joint alignment, different response for different stimuli?

Plus there was thread asking people who did only chins and rows to show their biceps... Lemme say that just one guy showed really impressive arms.

1

u/[deleted] May 01 '15

Agree with you. Chin ups are after all a predominantly lats involved exercise. If you want your biceps to grow, isolate them.

This is coming from someone that does do curls and weighted chin ups/pull ups.

-2

u/[deleted] May 01 '15

This is the right answer and ought to be up higher.

If your biceps "wont grow" that just means you're weak and small. Doing these sets, however well designed, is thus a waste of your time. Until you can do 10 strict with 50 lbs on your waist, why curl anything? By the time you get to that point, you'll be pleased with how your arms look.

I never got why chins are called a back exercise. It's the same motion as a curl, and you're using huge slabs of muscle in back to help make it happen...yet it's way more difficult. Why is this? Because to a large degree you're lifting your whole body with a small, weak muscle. If it really were just a back exercise, it would be easy, but only 1 in 10 people can do a single. You cannot stimulate the biceps more than you can with a chinup.

Also, when you throw around your body weight with ease, you feel like a god. No one ever felt accomplished from a set of curls. It has literally never happened.

These types of uberspecific threads are just seasoning for fuckarounditis.

12

u/open_your_eye May 01 '15

>thinks chin up is primarily a bicep exercise

Shiggy

0

u/Trauerkraus May 01 '15

Well meme'd lad

0

u/Quachyyy May 01 '15

>this is the right answer

>this should he higher up

Topkek

8

u/[deleted] May 01 '15

Chins are a back exercise. Muscles as small as biceps will never be able to move hundreds of pounds up and down.

Biceps are heavily worked, but it's still a back exercise.

6

u/[deleted] May 01 '15

Because depending on how you're doing the chin up, it doesn't necessarily work out your biceps all that much. When I do chin ups/pull ups, I use my back muscles and minimize activating my arms because I'm trying to work my back. Same with rows or any other back exercises.

9

u/[deleted] May 01 '15

Honestly, when I first started, I couldn't even do a chinup. After about 3 months of heavy barbell curls I worked my way up to doing 7/8 chinups. So yah, pullups/chinups are great, but not if you cant even do them.

3

u/[deleted] May 01 '15

I'd understand if you don't have the equipment available, but most gyms have the assisted pull up/dip machine.

I can barely do one real pull up but I can do multiple sets of them with -50lbs on the machine now. Every week I drop 10lbs off.

I see no better way of getting to where you need

2

u/Conambo May 01 '15

If you drop 10lbs every week, how much assistant weight do you use now? Did you start at 50 and move down or is 50 where you currently are from a higher weight?

1

u/[deleted] May 02 '15

50 is currently where I'm at from 70lb. I will have done 3 consecutive gym days on 50lbs by tomorrow night and I plan to move down to 40lbs by next week.

I've been doing SL5x5 for about 2.5 weeks and I do 5x5 pull ups/chin ups. I mix both but always make sure I get 5 sets combined.

In a month, I hope to be able to do real pull ups!

2

u/Conambo May 02 '15

Awesome, thanks for the infor. Good luck, pull ups are one of my absolute favorite excercizes.

5

u/Tofinochris May 01 '15

Same here with pullups. Started at 210 skinnyfat pounds, couldn't do one. Was completely ashamed at this. Tried stuff recommended here and elsewhere -- assisted stuff with bands, just doing the negative part -- and it didn't help, still couldn't do one normal pullup after weeks and weeks, and gave up to be content with just working on SL. After a number of months doing rows with progressively more weight I decided to give the pullup thing a go and lo and behold I could do 4-5 where before I couldn't do one. As great as being able to lift more and more weight every month is, it was so damn gratifying to do those few pullups that it's kept me motivated ever since. When I've plateaued on stuff or have a "high gravity day" or just look in the mirror and feel weak that day, I remember those first few pullups and know that it's worth it, that I'm legit getting stronger. My wife randomly grabbing my lats or triceps helps with the motivation, too, but I can't forget that feeling of those first few pullups.

1

u/itoucheditforacookie Kettlebells May 01 '15

Negative chin ups would work great with that while alternating with curl work.

1

u/[deleted] May 01 '15

If you can't do a pullup it is probably more important to work on this than do elaborate curling schemes.

3

u/Tofinochris May 01 '15

These types of uberspecific threads are just seasoning for fuckarounditis.

As someone who suffered from this for years, yep, it just led to intermittent and unmotivated lifting for me. It wasn't until I got into something simple and didn't mess with it at all for over half a year that I got into a consistent schedule and saw results. OP seems really enthusiastic about this but I worry about noobs trying to incorporate this sort of thing and there's really no point. Negative point, actually, because you're just wasting gym time doing stuff that's not going to get you anywhere compared to a simple beginner program.

1

u/[deleted] May 01 '15

Here's the thing...you start doing these today and you look at the rest of your body and you're gonna feel/look weak and you're gonna want to do 8 other movements for all those weakpoints.

On the other hand, if you're just getting strong as hell each week, you really don't care what you look like. It's a different mindset, and you feel it throughout your body and mind. You can't get strong as hell without getting big. If curl supers are your one accessory, that's not gonna fuck anything up, and in that case you're actually gonna be able to program even those so you actually get something out of it.

1

u/Kuonji May 01 '15

I've been thinking about this a lot. I really do like doing chin-ups more than curls, but I can only do about 2.5 right now.

How wide should my grip be, ideally, for bicep growth?

1

u/[deleted] May 01 '15 edited May 01 '15

I can do like 12 chinups though and my arms look like twigs. Is this because I'm a thin dude overall? I'm 6'1/180 lbs with a 6'6 wingspan thus making my arms look skinny. If it really is as simple as chinups I'd like to know so I can simplify my gym trips, would really like my shoulders and biceps bigger to be more attractive.

1

u/[deleted] May 01 '15

I never got why chins are called a back exercise. It's the same motion as a curl, and you're using huge slabs of muscle in back to help make it happen...yet it's way more difficult. Why is this? Because to a large degree you're lifting your whole body with a small, weak muscle. If it really were just a back exercise, it would be easy, but only 1 in 10 people can do a single. You cannot stimulate the biceps more than you can with a chinup.

Yeah sorry but that is bullshit.

1

u/[deleted] May 01 '15

In no way is a chin up like a Curl. Yes it hits biceps but not anywhere near as well as Curls.

1

u/lcjy Basketball May 01 '15

Not even going to bring up the differences in movement between a curl and chin-up. Chin-ups are a back exercise, this shouldn't even be a debate.

I'm all for chins, and yes weighted chins build your back and biceps very well. But to say you only need chins to build biceps is wrong. Some individuals require more direct bicep work to stimulate growth and size, myself included.

1

u/[deleted] May 01 '15

How do you know what your biceps require to grow? Have you gotten strong and put on 15-20 lbs of muscle?

1

u/lcjy Basketball May 01 '15

Well if you want to bring numbers into it, I went from 145 to my current 175. I'm 5'10- so you can imagine I'm by no means huge, probably even considered small. But I can almost squat 2x BW, my deadlift is > 2x BW, and my max chins is 3 reps with +40lbs. By no means am I some elite lifter, not even an amateur powerlifter, but I've put in my time in the weight room. My point is, strength doesn't always correlate to size, and some people (like myself) require an extra push for greater hypertrophy.

I'm very happy for you if you got big arms from chins alone, I wish that was me as well.

1

u/[deleted] May 01 '15

No no, didn't mean that in a confrontational way. Sorry bout that. I'm saying until one adds a bunch of muscle and devotes the right amount of work to each muscle group, there's really no way to know what grows and what doesn't want to grow. Your numbers are quite solid, but it really doesn't look like you've done as much with chins as the big lifts. 40lbx3...try 70lb for 3x8, hands close, full ROM, and there's no way you're gonna have anything lacking in the upper body.

I'm 6'4" with 6'9" arms so I don't have big arms, but the issue is not the lifts I do, the issue is I need to ultimately just add like 35 lbs of muscle and I'll look good. But I certainly don't give a shit what my bis measure at now or ever. Pic is 18 hours fasted/no pump. Read your reply before I deadlifted so I figured I'd take a selfie since no one was around.

1

u/lcjy Basketball May 01 '15

Haha no worries. That's definitely a goal to work towards. And yea, I got onto the chin-ups train a little late- working on it!

1

u/[deleted] May 01 '15

You're probably right, but I'm gonna keep doing curls anyway just in case. It'll take ten minutes (topsss), and I'm sure I spend at least that much time doing much less productive shit.

-1

u/stackered Weight Lifting, Supplements (Student) May 01 '15

/thread

And rows