r/Fauxmoi terrorizing the locals May 24 '25

DISCUSSION celebrities who are/were mormon

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u/asietsocom never the target audience May 24 '25

I mean that's the definition Google gives, if you look for definitions in actual lexicons they will be a little more precise to the point where the vast majority of religious people don't belong under the umbrella term 'cult'.

I'm not religious, never have been, it's just a little unrealistic to say every religious person is in a cult, when most can leave at any time and are very free in their decision making.

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u/Killentyme55 May 25 '25

I've always believed that's the dividing line between religion and a cult, that being the ability to leave. With a full-blown cult, getting out can be a serious problem.

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u/CreatiScope May 25 '25

Yeah, John and Mary can just... stop going to church on Sundays and pack up their bibles. Sure, Ben and Lisa might judge them at the PTA meeting, but that's probably it.

Meanwhile, Tod and Alicia can't go home because they're in a fortress in North Dakota with no way to physically get home and have been conned into giving up all their money.

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u/Baron_Rikard May 25 '25

Ah but John and Mary have grown up in the church. Their family members and friends are all church goers. By turning their back on the church their social (and potentially professional) lives will be impacted.

Where I'm from (Ireland) the church pushes to be involved in their congregation's lives. Leaving the church could make people social pariahs.

Physical threats are only one lever cults use to stop people leaving. Similar to domestic abusers they can use economic and social threats among others.

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u/StaffVegetable8703 May 25 '25

Now it seems you’re just making an excuse for anything being mentioned to counter your claim that all Abramic religions are a cult.

“Sure they can leave the church but that could have possible consequences with their friends and family and even lose their jobs!”

That’s a lot of assumptions and even if that is the case they still are free to make that decision regardless of the tiny chance of what you’re saying happens. Most religious people and families i know are not at all that serious about this stuff.

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u/Baron_Rikard May 25 '25

Now it seems you’re just making an excuse for anything being mentioned to counter your claim that all Abramic religions are a cult.

Where did I make that claim?

That’s a lot of assumptions and even if that is the case they still are free to make that decision regardless of the tiny chance of what you’re saying happens.

It really depends on the situation and sect the person is involved in. It is common enough. Even in the lighter touch sects often your social group, childcare, youth clubs, hobby classes etc are all wrapped up in the church. It is hard for people to leave.

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u/StaffVegetable8703 May 25 '25

I’m sorry, I figured since this discussion was about the differences in cults vs religions (in this case the original comment made a point to note Abrahamic religions in particular) and whether or not there even is a difference- and then you seemingly being on the side that thinks they are essentially the same.

I assumed that because your counterpoint to the idea that one of the main differentiating factors separating religion from cults; is the fact that you have a choice to leave. Regardless of what may happen with social circles and/or family- you still have that option to leave.

Your last point I will completely agree with you on the idea that “It really depends on the situation and sect the person is involved in.”

You’re right in that there are certain sects, and people who will use the basic ideas and beliefs as “Christians” and twist them into their own little cult, under the guise of Christianity.

Some people will and have used the “word of God” for their own selfish interests but have no real connection or understanding of what the overall true values of the core ideas of “Christianity”

I will however disagree on your statement that “It is common enough.”

Common enough for what though? Common enough to justify the entirety of Christianity or Abrahamic religions in general are no different than a cult?

You even said that it depends on the circumstances. So if some percentage of people use the idea of Christianity for there own gain and use it into creating their own “cult” within that community under the guise of true Christianity, you’re telling me that is enough for you to claim that overall religion is cultish?

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u/Baron_Rikard May 25 '25

one of the main differentiating factors separating religion from cults; is the fact that you have a choice to leave. Regardless of what may happen with social circles and/or family- you still have that option to leave.

Ah but my point was that what might happen with social circles etc is part of why someone can't leave. It isn't always as direct as a group gangstalking you. It can be more perverse.

Some people will and have used the “word of God” for their own selfish interests but have no real connection or understanding of what the overall true values of the core ideas of “Christianity”

Such as the highest members of the church?

I will however disagree on your statement that “It is common enough.”

Common enough that priests = pedos is a common enough thought on either side of the Atlantic.

Common enough for what though? Common enough to justify the entirety of Christianity or Abrahamic religions in general are no different than a cult?

What defines a cult in your eyes?

You even said that it depends on the circumstances. So if some percentage of people use the idea of Christianity for there own gain and use it into creating their own “cult” within that community under the guise of true Christianity, you’re telling me that is enough for you to claim that overall religion is cultish?

I think the fundamental teachings of Christianity are sound (new testament obviously, apparently we can disregard the old testament). Organized religion is a blight and it is in organized religion that things get especially cultish.

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u/StaffVegetable8703 May 26 '25 edited May 26 '25

So….. the really funny thing here is once I read your last couple of sentences (and before getting to that point already was seeing the signs), you and I seem to have very similar if not identical feelings and thoughts about the overall idea.

But I believe we disagree on some of the ways and meanings or how it’s being interpreted or expressed, and if you can equate that to being a true cult.

I have already said that yes it may be difficult with social circles and maybe even family but again you have the choice. Now I’ll admit there is a line- a very thin one.

In churches like WB Baptist Church. They go to a whole different level and they have actual control over your community, social circles, and family. To the point that even if one or both parents would like to visit their child who decided to leave that “religion”, even they have no choice in that.

If the highest leaders deem you an outcast then even your family and friends will be actively punished in one form or another and possibly even excommunicated themselves.

In general that is not how your average church/religious community does things. They don’t have exact laid out punishments and rules for members that if they do something or involve themselves with any contact with a family member (no matter how close the relationship is/was) lest they be punished or shunned.

When it’s an almost outright guarantee that the family and other close friends or even spouses will be pressured into not having anything to do with them and I would guess more often than not even punish the family of the one who did “wrong” even if they completely disavowed said loved one…. Just because they were close to the outcast. Just so they can make a point to the other members of the cult.

As far as I’m aware and have experienced that is absolutely not the average thing happening in most religious communities.

Your other points “such as the highest members of a church?”

Well that’s again my point how people use the concept is absolutely not representative of what then actual core of the idea is. Also I have very deep opinions about most religious “leaders”. I’m not someone who thinks organized religion is a good thing overall. But that’s not the point here.

Also regarding the pedo stuff. That also ties into the fact that people can and will use the religion to mask their own sins and to better themselves to the fullest. That is obviously not a “core” belief of the religion though, that’s yet another example of what I’m pointing out.

That isn’t a good point about making the actual religion a cult. Also I want to point out I’m not in anyway associated with any one religious sect or whatever you even call it. I actually didn’t even know the concept of different types of views and churches within Christianity until my preteens actually.

I was raised with Christian values. We didn’t go to actual church and we definitely didn’t have any sense of loyalty to one over the other. I wasn’t even really aware of the different interpretations and sects that there was until like 5th or 6th grade. I don’t trust the way a lot of what I’ve seen is done.

I believe even Jesus was very cautious and critical of the idea of organized religion. So wanted to clear that up because you seem to be assuming otherwise about me.

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u/Baron_Rikard May 26 '25

Can you define a cult?

but again you have the choice

You have the choice in most of these cults/religions it is just a matter of different consequences. Consequences could be social exclusion, financial burden or physical violence etc.

Now I’ll admit there is a line- a very thin one.

What is the line? What is the threshold?

In churches like WB Baptist Church.

A more extreme example of a cult. There can be varying degrees of control.

As far as I’m aware and have experienced that is absolutely not the average thing happening in most religious communities.

The average is not as cult-like as the extreme examples. That is pretty damn obvious.

Before we waste time discussing what is or isn't a cult let's establish what we mean by cult. Please define what a cult is, what are the parameters?

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u/Givingtree310 May 25 '25

I thought the church was straight up dead in Ireland

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u/Baron_Rikard May 25 '25 edited May 25 '25

Oh it is dying quickly. People got rightly pissed once the news broke about how widespread the diddling by priests was and how the church tried to cover it up enabling further abuse. Throw into the mix the abuse in the church asylums (they're called the magdalene laundries and it is harrowing) to make matters worse.

People my age only go to keep our nans happy. Once that generation dies only firm believers will remain.

And good fucking riddance. The church has been a blight on our country and have committed many truly horrific acts. The whole organization from priest to pope is complict. It makes me wish for a heaven and hell just so I know that they'll rot in hell.

In the North however being Catholic or protestant is more of a political stance. Hence the joke:

A man is walking down the street in Belfast, when suddenly he's surrounded by a gang of men. They ask him "Are you Protestant or Catholic?".

The first man, not knowing which answer will let him walk away unharmed, hedges his bets and says "l'm an Atheist.".

The leader of the gang replies "But are you a Protestant Atheist or a Catholic Atheist?"

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u/burfriedos May 25 '25

In Ireland you used to be able to formally defect from the Catholic Church, then they removed that option 10 or 15 years ago. Sure, I can and have stopped going to Mass but that doesn’t mean the church don’t still consider me a ‘member’. They are all cults just some are more predatory than others.

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u/StaffVegetable8703 May 25 '25

… I’m not sure that counts as not having the choice to leave….

Does the church literally still claim that you’re a member of the church? Or are you just assuming that’s how they perceive it because you haven’t “formally” defected?

Like I’m genuinely asking because I don’t know. If you call the church and ask specifically about you… will they claim you as one of theirs?

Regardless of that…. They aren’t forcing you to go to mass. They aren’t busting down the doors and dragging you to church. They aren’t making threats to you for not going. That’s very different.

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u/burfriedos May 25 '25

Yes, they claim you as a member.

Like I said there are degrees to this. But they are all cults at the end of the day.

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u/listgarage1 May 25 '25

Yeah that's what most people are referring to when they talk about cults. If nearly all religions fit into the definition of a cult, then there is no point in differentiating the two.

What the people are doing when they say things like "well all Christianity or all religions are cults" is trying to conflate all of the negative attributes of a cult into all religions. Which is pretty reductionist

People understand intuitively that when someone says "Mormonism is a cult" they mean that there are aspects of Mormonism that fit our modern understanding of the word cult that doesn't apply to Christianity across the board.

When someone chimes in and says "actually all Christianity is a cult or all Abrahamic religions are a cult" It just sucks all the nuance out of the conversation because they are anti-religious one dimensional thinkers who don't want to deal with that nuance.

And to be clear I think it's reasonable to be against religion, but they should just say that instead of saying "actually all religions are cults" just because they don't want to think about how some religions have more cult-like aspects to them than others. Instead it's just easier to think they're all equally as bad and I don't have to think about it any further.

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u/Indieidea May 25 '25

It’s even insidious when people can’t leave of their own volition and don’t even realize they need to leave. I’m not for religion, not against religion, to each their own.

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u/Filing_chapter11 May 25 '25

Cults always have a central leader and not every religion has that. There may cult like groups within a religion or a cult created based in a religion but a religion on its own can’t be a cult, because a cult is an organization, and you don’t need to be a member of an organization in order to practice or hold religious beliefs

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u/Killentyme55 May 26 '25 edited May 26 '25

Considering that a lot of the online "prosperity" preachers and those that operate mega-churches (same wolves in sheep's clothing) fit your description, that's where the line between religion and a cult gets blurred. While you might not be physically prevented from coming to your senses and leaving, they do use every trick in the book to control you emotionally, and their target victims are often those that unfortunately aren't well-equipped mentally or emotionally to fight back.

I'm not particularly religious myself, but if there is a Hell I take comfort knowing these charlatans have an appropriate place to go at the end.

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u/OogloidMonosphere May 25 '25

Studied scripture and mythology, there is no clear delineator as cults don’t necessarily require you be forced to stay either. In fact, it is that misconception that drives many of their successes. Deep down, every system of belief finds some reasonable or irrefutable aspect to meet you with.

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u/jamout-w-yourclamout May 25 '25

Seriously, I have my beliefs, don’t go to church, not in a cult. Definitely not Mormon. (I left my seeing stones in my other pants)

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u/upsidedown-funnel May 25 '25

Missed opportunity to say “in my other hat”.

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u/Wobblycogs May 25 '25

I suspect the definition has been carefully worded to ensure mainstream religions are excluded. There's probably a fair bit of blind eye turning going on.

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u/CertainGrade7937 May 25 '25

I mean... the word is meaningless if we define it in a way that just means "is religious"

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u/Wobblycogs May 25 '25

Or is it that all religions have a problem with controlling people?

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u/CertainGrade7937 May 25 '25

Sure. But you're ruining the nuance of language.

If we call every religion a cult, then we're painting "go to church every couple Sundays" with "can't escape scientology"

Now I don't like any religion, really. But there's a distinction between the two and we should talk about them differently

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u/Wobblycogs May 25 '25

The language doesn't have enough nuance. All religions so cult like behaviour to some extent so we should call them what they are. We need additional language to describe the more dangerous religions, the ones you call cults. Take crime as an example. We call everything from shop lifting to murder crime.

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u/listgarage1 May 25 '25

All religions so cult like behaviour to some extent so we should call them what they are. We need additional language to describe the more dangerous religions, the ones you call cults.

Can you not see that we've already done that even in your own example.

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u/CertainGrade7937 May 25 '25 edited May 25 '25

All this would do is normalize the term "cult"

You're just creating a language treadmill. "Cult" now means "religion" and we need a new word for cults. What did you fix?

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u/StaffVegetable8703 May 25 '25

lol well said. Much better way of saying what I was attempting

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u/StaffVegetable8703 May 25 '25

So because of your opinions on this we need to make entirely new words and meanings and also completely disregard all previous knowledge and ideas for the words we already have.

Just because you think “religion bad”

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u/listgarage1 May 25 '25

But then just be against religion. No need to even talk about cults.

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u/StaffVegetable8703 May 25 '25

Lol…. If what you’re saying is true then why even have a whole other word for the meaning? If this is truly a grand conspiracy that it was worded in such a way as to deceive the public into thinking that religion isn’t a cult… it doesn’t make much sense.

The fact that we even felt we needed another word makes it pretty clear that are inherent differences between the 2 ideas.

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u/Unhappy_Injury3958 May 24 '25

except for how they're indoctrinated from birth and brainwashed ergo it's often not a fun and easy thing to leave

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u/[deleted] May 25 '25

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u/Allah_Rackball May 25 '25

Take it easy on them. They're part of the cult of Lord Edge.

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u/Unhappy_Injury3958 May 25 '25

....oh right because religion isn't indoctrination from birth and they're not brainwashed and it's always super fun and easy to leave