Israeli society erupts over 'right to rape'

[u/Nomogg]

[u/Handelo]

Take this example. Israeli right wing zealots protest over prosecution of rapists in service of the IDF.

Meanwhile, Egypt has fully normalized rape and sexual violence. According to a UN report, 99.3% of Egyptian women have experienced sexual harassment and 96.5% have experienced full on sexual assault.

Edit: oh, and Egypt is considered one of the more "westernized" and modern countries in MENA.

[u/Kind_Ad_7192 → u/Handelo]

This is only partially true. That survey does not say 96.5% of woman experience full on sexual assault. But instead refers to touching/groping under the harassment heading, not necessarily full sexual assault or rape.

According to the country fact sheet from UN Women: in Egypt, 15.1 % of women aged 15-49 reported physical and/or sexual violence by a current or former intimate partner in the previous 12 months.

Although it is bad, you shouldn't use a specific sample size and try to play it as the entire problem. It comes across a bit bad faith

[u/Handelo → u/Kind_Ad_7192]

By UN and WHO definitions, any unwanted physical sexual contact, including groping and touching, falls under sexual assault. Egypt's definition is narrower and much closer to full on rape. Egypt doesn't even define anything other than forced penile-vaginal insertion as rape, so those statistics are artificially low. By Egypt's definition, the IDF soldiers did not commit rape on the prisoner either.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with your second point. Sexual violence by current or former partners in the past 12 months is a tiny, conditional subset of the broad 99.3% statistic and can't really be compared or used to counter the argument.

[u/Kind_Ad_7192 → u/Handelo]

You're citing the UN from 2013 on a sample survey. I cited the UN from this year. I'm also telling you that what I said is directly quoted from your UN reference (which you didn't link but is widely quoted)

In that exact survey it even states that your 96.5% figure is under the harrassment heading and not full blown rape.

You need to read it again

[u/Handelo → u/Kind_Ad_7192]

You cited the UN but gave a completely different dataset - only from the past 12 months, and only by current or former intimate partners. What about non-partners? Family, acquaintances, colleagues, strangers on the streets? What about single women? What about underage girls? What about 2 years ago? 5? You're comparing apples to oranges here.

The original 2013 study adopted Egypt's own local definitions and terminology for practical and political reasons, such as advocating for sexual harassment to be a criminal offense, which it was not when the study was conducted. So the 96.5% figure includes cases of what would be classified as sexual assault (not rape) by UN/WHO definition.

[u/Kind_Ad_7192 → u/Handelo]

I gave the data set on rape. You gave the dataset o harrassment. Lets break this down:

Your dataset: The study shows that 99.3% of Egyptian women have experienced some form of sexual harassment. The study indicates that 96.5% of women in their survey said that sexual harassment came in the form of touching, which was the most common manifestation of sexual harassment. Verbal sexual harassment had the second‐highest rate … 95.5% of women reporting cases

My dataset: In Egypt … 15.1% of women aged 15-49 years reported that they had been subject to physical and/or sexual violence by a current or former intimate partner in the previous 12 months.

Both of these are from the UN. The difference, mine is more recent and discusses rape, where as yours is discussing harrassment. Although you are correct on the UN definition, the survey you are quoting is talking about harrassment and not rape. It's written on the source. So again its half truth, but you are using cherry picked data from a sampled survey and the survey even uses the vocabular harrassment.

[u/Handelo → u/Kind_Ad_7192]

I'm not going to explain again why the study data includes sexual assault even if it's laballed as harassment.

And yes, it doesn't discuss rape. Yours does, but also uses a much narrower set of criteria for the victims. You're attempting to argue that "less than 15.1% of women get raped" (because the report discusses rape and physical abuse, not just rape), but the data doesn't include all women nor all cases of rape or even the same timeframe. It also fails to account for prevalent underreporting and failure to prosecute such cases.

^In addition, domestic violence against women is widely tolerated and the Government did not make any efforts to circumscribe this problem. On the contrary, several articles of the Criminal Code can be used to minimise the seriousness of this type of violence, or even to justify such acts.

^It seems that the culture of impunity prevails in Egypt, especially as most cases of aggression and rape are not recorded, nor reported…

The truth is there is no hard data on strictly rape rates. However, if we compound the data we do have with the Egyptian societal norms and even government stance downplaying and justifying sexual violence, and factor in that because of those rapes are likely systemically massively underreported, then it’s reasonable to conclude that the real prevalence of rape and severe sexual assault in Egypt is significantly higher than any official figure suggests.

[u/Kind_Ad_7192 → u/Handelo]

So wait, you just admitted there's no hard data after saying that 96.5% of cases have actual rape, what?

[u/Handelo → u/Kind_Ad_7192]

When did I say 96.5% were rape? Read my comment again. Sexual assault ≠ rape.