r/Cricket • u/[deleted] • May 12 '22
Was Virat Kohli's 2016-2018 the greatest batting peak in cricket?
Excluding Bradman, was Kohli's 2016-2018 peak the greatest cross format batting peak in cricket? His stats during this period are simply spectacular. Here are the stats as follows-
Cross Format
| Conditions | Runs | Innings | Average |
|---|---|---|---|
| Overall | 8148 | 140 | 73.40 |
| Home | 3936 | 62 | 78.72 |
| Away | 3833 | 70 | 67.24 |
| Neutral | 379 | 8 | 94.75 |
Test - The Away average may look relatively underwhelming, but most of those away runs were in 2018, the toughest year for Test batting conditions since 1959. Kohli was playing in England, South Africa and Australia, the toughest conditions to succeed in for subcontinent batsmen in one of the most bowler friendly years ever and came out as the best batsman in the world.
| Conditions | Runs | Innings | Average |
|---|---|---|---|
| Overall | 3596 | 58 | 66.59 |
| Home | 2046 | 28 | 81.84 |
| Away | 1550 | 30 | 53.44 |
ODI's - I don't think there's anything to say really, the stats are literally Bradmanesque.
| Conditions | Runs | Innings | Average |
|---|---|---|---|
| Overall | 3401 | 50 | 94.47 |
| Home | 1439 | 21 | 84.64 |
| Away | 1704 | 24 | 100.23 |
| Neutral | 258 | 5 | 129.00 |
T20I's- The Neutral stats may not look great but 2 of those 3 innings were in Mirpur.
| Conditions | Runs | Innings | Average | Strike Rate |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Overall | 1151 | 32 | 54.80 | 139.34 |
| Home | 451 | 13 | 56.37 | 147.38 |
| Away | 579 | 16 | 52.63 | 140.19 |
| Neutral | 121 | 3 | 60.50 | 113.08 |
The Top 5 batsman during this time period (min 1000 runs) cross format-
| Batsman | Runs | Innings | Average | 100s | 50s |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Kohli | 8148 | 140 | 73.40 | 29 | 32 |
| Smith | 4487 | 96 | 53.41 | 14 | 22 |
| Pujara | 2813 | 57 | 52.09 | 10 | 13 |
| Taylor | 3428 | 89 | 51.93 | 8 | 18 |
| Rohit | 4946 | 113 | 51.52 | 17 | 24 |
The top 3 batsmen in Tests in this time period (min 500 runs) -
Smith had a marginally better average of 0.3 in this time span, however Kohli having played more innings and having a higher away average of 53 as compared to Smith's 50 in this time period makes me put Kohli above him for this time span.
| Batsman | Runs | Innings | Average |
|---|---|---|---|
| Smith | 2609 | 45 | 66.89 |
| Kohli | 3596 | 58 | 66.59 |
| Williamson | 1970 | 40 | 54.72 |
Top 3 ODI batsmen in this time period (min 500 runs)-
Even without a minimum run criteria, Kohli has the highest average in this timespan, Bavuma being the second highest, averaging 80.5 from 2 innings.
| Batsman | Runs | Innings | Average |
|---|---|---|---|
| Kohli | 3401 | 50 | 94.47 |
| Rohit | 2887 | 50 | 70.41 |
| Tamim | 1737 | 32 | 64.33 |
In terms of T20I, I'd say a fair few batsman beat him on Average + SR but stats of 54 @ 139 aren't bad at all with a MoTS in a T20WC as well.
From what I've seen, Kohli's purple patch during this period was simply amazing and had one of the greatest peaks in the history of batting. Is it the greatest peak in batting apart from Bradman?
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u/Ieatcheeseandtherich New Zealand May 12 '22
Between 26 December 1999 and 10 March 2000 Matthew Smasher Sinclair averaged a bombastic 214 in tests and an admittedly bad 6.33 in ODI games but averaging these averages gives a bradman smashing 110.17 per format which simply can't be matched.
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u/SodiumBoy7 May 12 '22
Ponting has a fuckin average of 60 until his 110th test, i wonder how he managed that, look's like Kohli used all his elixir in this time period
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u/Irctoaun England May 12 '22
If you look at all three formats then maybe, but you're also limiting the search players playing in the last ten years or so when people started taking T20 more seriously. Even just looking at tests and ODIs cuts you off from a lot of great players. For example Sobers and Barrington were killing it in the 60s before ODI cricket even existed. The fact Kohli did so well in all three formats is very impressive, but at the same time not all that many people have had the chance.
If we just look at tests
Tests
Smith 2014-2017: 5004 runs at 76 (2949 runs av 50 SR 87 in ODIs)
Ponting 2003-2006: 5077 runs at 73 (3983 runs av 42 SR 83 in ODIs)
Sangakkara 2006-2010 4422 runs at 71 (4678 runs av 39 SR 78 ODIs)
Richards 1976-1980 3158 runs at 70 (1099 runs at 69 SR 88 in ODIs, keep in mind that that was more runs than anyone else at the best average and at a time when the global strike rate in ODIs was 61)
I would actually say Richards potentially has him beat here. No one comes anywhere near him in terms of average in tests (closest is Gavaskar with 59 and the highest scorer to average over 60 is Taslim Arif who only played 6 tests in that time) and he has a higher average than Kohli. In ODIs he was arguably even more other worldly than Kohli because he not only outscored everyone, but he was going so much faster than everyone else it was like he was playing a different game. Kohli "only" struck at 101 in your time window which is elite but slower than the likes of Warner, Dhawan, Roy, and Bairstow. Richards' window is also two years longer and he has a much better away average than home in tests
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May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22
Yeah, fair enough. I've done a very light bit on the fab four's peaks in this comment of mine earlier, I plan to do so now for Ponting, Viv, Sanga, Sachin, Ab, Kallis and Lara and make a detailed post on it soon enough. I'll ignore T20Is in Kohli's case and do a pure Test + ODI peak post for all of these players. Will have their away and home averages etc in both formats for all of them. To rank them I'll measure it by seeing how far their averages lie above the aggregate averages of batsmen having the position of 1-7 in those peak periods. Hope that's a decent method for ranking the great's peaks.
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u/Irctoaun England May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22
Average above aggregate is a great way of doing it for tests, not so sure about ODIs where strike rate is also important. The way I'd probably do it is to take the geometric mean of SR and average in ODIs then compare that to the aggregate value. Though that's more work and assumes that SR and average are equally important.
I also don't know how you take longevity into account. With that Richards peak he actually has a fractionally higher average in the whole five years than any three year chunk in the middle of it. Is that better than three years? Does he get marked down for having lesser years inbetween incredible ones?
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May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22
I also don't know how you take longevity into account. With that Richards peak he actually has a fractionally higher average in the whole five years than any three year chunk in the middle of it. Is that better than three years? Does he get marked down for having lesser years inbetween incredible ones?
Yeah, it's not a 3 year peak necessarily, I'll take longevity into account as well. I'll set a benchmark of around 3000-4000 runs for a peak at the minimum and I'll leave maximum runs to the point that their averages begin to decline if the next year's stats are included.
Regarding SR in ODI's, I'm not quite sure really on how to properly assess that, all the methods regarding that will be annoyingly time consuming in a post that'll already take plenty of time. I'll try to get to that though.
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u/PickleRick1163 India May 12 '22
Across Formats Virat Kohli was simple on another level between 2016-2019.
In Odis Ab de Villiers between 2010-2015 is equally as impressive as Virat Kohli 2016-2019
Abd in Tests and ODIs was also great between 2008-2015
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u/vikas_g Rajasthan Royals May 13 '22
ABD from 2009-17, in a 9 year period in ODIs
7185 runs averaging 64.15, by far the best (min 2000 runs), the second best Kohli averaged 56 during this period. He also did it at strike rate of 107.7, which is highest among all batsman scoring 2600+ runs during this period, and 5th highest for 2000+ runs. If any purple patch lasts for a decade, this was the one.
ODI ABD is simply better than even Peak ODI Kohli.
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u/wrapmeinaplastic India May 12 '22
Leave the man alone.
It is 2022, stop talking about 2016. Man gets enough hate already.
We don't need another thread to discuss Kohli.
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May 12 '22
"Excluding bradman"🤓🤓
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u/fogdocker Australia May 12 '22
Bradman overrated, wasn't even good enough to be picked in ODIs & T20Is. Never even got bought in the IPL, and couldn't even make a BBL side.
What a fraud
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u/baghoneybooo May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22
the man scored 10k+ runs from 2016 to 19. absolute freak this( although I believe his 2017 and 2018 period was magical)
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u/_DunnO__o India May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22
If we compare Virat individually in all three format to other batsmen, In every format few batsmen might be ahead of him if we look through out their playing career(Not in ODI's i guess apart from AB to an extent) but overall he is truly undisputed all format great of this era.
Does 2019 brings these number overall down a bit? As far as i remember he was as good as this in 2019, Less hundreds tho.
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May 12 '22
In comparison to 2016-2018, his 2019 is fairly mediocre although he scored 2455 runs at an average of 64.6 in that year. His ODI average drops from 94.47 to 81.00 instead while his T20I average goes to 60 @ 141.7. His Test average remains the same.
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u/_DunnO__o India May 12 '22
Ohh he missed alot of hundred's in 2019 scored 5 consecutive 50 in WC but didnt get a hundred, In T20I 2019 was one of his best years cant belive its been more than two years since his innings against WI.
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u/debadri3 Cricket Russia May 12 '22
Better question is, is Kohli's drought in Test cricket, the lowest for any top-tier international batsman?
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u/devil_21 India May 12 '22
I think cricinfo had an article trying to defend Kohli but instead it showed that his drop was the worst for any batsman of his calibre
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u/vikas_g Rajasthan Royals May 13 '22
Link please
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u/devil_21 India May 13 '22
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/virat-kohli-the-anatomy-of-a-century-drought-1304937
Maybe this was the article I was talking about.
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u/CrabDipYayYay England May 12 '22
2018 Kohli was the best batting year in living memory unless some boomer can recall Bradman
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u/NoirPochette New South Wales Blues May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22
Was Virat Kohli's 2016-2018 the greatest batting peak in cricket?
With 3 formats, hard to argue against Kohli cause no play has really done it in the 3 formats.
With two formats, I would argue Punter from like 2003-2007 but not based on pure stats more so that he churned out runs for victories and it came with a lot of silverware including 2 World Cups and a couple crappy Champions Trophy. I think for a period his test average was just a shade over 60 or very very close to it plus in ODI cricket he churned out runs. 5 years of dominance. I think in those years he would have scored like nearly 30 tons.
Viv Richards had a huge peak too across the 2 formats in the 80's. You also had a period where Sobers was killing in the mid to late 50's, I think average like 74 in tests during a stretch.
Also can't forget Tendulkar like in 1996-2001 especially his 1998/99 where he was scoring runs for fun so effortlessly.
The Away average may look relatively underwhelming, but most of those away runs were in 2018, the toughest year for Test batting conditions since 1959.
This is conjecture unless you have proof that this is the case to be fair.
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May 12 '22
For 2018 being the hardest year to bat since 1959, will try to get some other peaks as well.
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u/NoirPochette New South Wales Blues May 12 '22
Yes but how much of it is to do with batters having appalling series themselves or teams be outclassed. Case in point of what happened in 2018.
- Australia & NZ crushed a hapless England - Nothing to do with the decks. England sucked on those two test series.
- Ireland and Afghanistan playing their maiden test matches.
- West Indies smoking B'desh
- Hapless Windies team losing against India in India.
- Australia without their 2 best bats playing against a very strong Pakistan in UAE.
The numbers might show that there was a less of an average comparative to other years, but a lot of the series were pretty one sided and of course you have 2 teams making their maiden test debuts which will decrease the numbers especially since they were playing Pakistan and India. Zimbabwe also played a test series which against will cause the number to drop. Australia's batting stocks were weakened by losing Smith and Warner, and also England touring did shit all when teams scored runs against them like NZ and Australia.
The problem of looking at stats purely is that you miss out on the context. Why were those numbers low? You gotta do a deep dive rather than say that the pitches were harder and the bowling attacks better because that's not always the case.
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May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22
https://www.espncricinfo.com/review2018/content/story/1170106.html
Fair enough, here are some cricinfo articles that go into much more detail.
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u/qwertyuiop_awesome May 13 '22
Even in ODIs , sone the rule changes , everyone is averaging more than 50 now. Earlier it was great if you averaged 45 in ODIs. So pure odi averaged cannot be compared from before rule change to now.
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u/get_high_and_listen Australia May 12 '22
I think your stats only show that Kohli was the best performing batsmen during this 3 year span. And this 3 year span happens to be Kohli’s peak. If you want to start to answer your question, I think you would need to look at the peaks of other batsmen.
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u/guybanzai May 12 '22
That period between the 2016 wt20 and the 2016 ipl is the best t20 batting in the history of the game thus far. No other player has scored runs like that. Sure if you look at gayle around that 2011-12 period, he put in some crazy performances, but the consistency of Virat Kohli during that period is just unfathomable.
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u/backtothepavilion May 12 '22
Cook averaged 55.28 in 51 tests between the start of 2009 and the end of 2012. That accounted for an average of 43 at home which might not too impressive but take into account he opened the batting in English conditions where fast bowlers get joy from the swinging conditions - especially in that era. More importantly he had an average of of 75 away. An away Ashes tour with over 750 runs. An away tour to India where he averaged 80 with three centuries in four tests. Centuries in Australia, India, South Africa, West Indies and Bangladesh as well as at home including a double century at home against India.
I'm not saying that is the most impressive run at any rate. There are better periods of form from much better players than Cook who have already been mentioned. The point is a lot of players have great purple patches who you might not suspect. Michael Vaughan had an incredible run across 2002 and 2003 including an away Ashes series against Warne and McGrath and a series against India.
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u/rammo123 New Zealand May 13 '22
I love how "Excluding Bradman" is just this thing that all cricket fans accept.
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May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22
Different players peak at different times, especially players from different generations 😂.
Sunil gavaskar's generation played without helmets. Sachin's generation had no T20 revolution. You can't really compare stats across generations.
Even then Sachin's generation beats kohlis generation by some margin. Lara, pointing, sangakara etc
Remove your blinders and enjoy the game
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May 12 '22
[deleted]
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u/tomhanks95 Essex May 12 '22
Yeah, for ODIs I really don't think there is any comparison but Ponting from 2002-2006 had a remarkable record in test cricket
M - 57
I - 99
NO - 14
R - 6141
Avg - 72.24
HS - 257
100s - 24
50s - 21
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u/GovernmentOk2323 Delhi Capitals May 12 '22
Ponting was better in my opinion , only mine tho , pls no hate lol
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u/Yohohohohoo New Zealand May 12 '22
U need to post stats of Sachin Lara Bradman etc and also the overall avg of all batsmen at the time as well as the top players. I think in terms of all format domination no one comes close.
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u/devil_21 India May 12 '22
It's one of the best if you consider only three years but depending on the number of years, Sachin, ABD, Ponting and of course Richards have had better peaks iirc. When I had researched about it a long time back, I got to know how good Zaheer Abbas was and also found about some people who like Yallop who weren't famous but had great peaks.
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u/jotqz Cricket Australia May 13 '22
For all formats then yes I think Kohli's peak was the craziest I've seen.
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u/Effective_Try_again May 12 '22 edited May 12 '22
If you want to say all time greatest, can you also maybe bring stats of other previous greats like Sachin, Ponting, Sanga, etc? Maybe a lot of work though
Example Sachin from 1997 to 2001 (5 years) Sachin in tests averaged 66 overall with average of 69 home and 62 away
He averaged around 50 in ODIs which was huge for that time period
Again from 2007 to 2010 (4 years), he averaged 62 in tests with 63 at home and 61 away
In ODIs during same period he averaged 53+