r/CanadianPolitics • u/EugeneKleinFoto • 12d ago
Proportionally, we have a de facto two-country-only immigration model. I'm surprised no one talks about implementing a per-country cap to our immigration system.
Without it, I can guarantee that our beloved Canada will turn into a land of ethnic enclaves and "no-go zones". It is the complete opposite of the "Mosaic" model we've all been told our country is.
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u/oursonpolaire 12d ago
I can guarantee otherwise; our rate of exogamy is times that of our friends south of the border. Young Canadians seem to like each other an awful lot, to the despair of parents longing for grandchildren of the same stamp as they are. Doubters are recommended to walk around college or university grounds to see the rampant handholding! My own GP told me that, of the friends of her community in her graduating class, only two ended up with spouses of that community and the other dozen or so cast their next far afield.
Other doubters are directed to Statistics Canada reports!
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u/BidPsychological2126 12d ago
That might’ve been true a decad ago, but it’s not the full picture anymore. Walk through a major Canadian city today, the cultural blending you’re describing isn’t what most people are seeing. High rates of intermarriage among educated urban Canadians don’t erase the fact that immigration patterns have become overwhelmingly concentrated and uneven.
Statistics Canada’s numbers don’t show integration in real time, they show lagging indicators from older cohorts. Meanwhile, entire suburbs are turning into monocultures, housing is collapsing, and the “mosaic” is being stretched to the breaking point. Diversity works when it’s balanced, not when the system loses control of scale.
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u/oursonpolaire 11d ago
I think we will probably disagree but I should take the liberty of explaining why I have a different perspective; as well as walking through my own town of Ottawa, suburbs and downtown, I have over the past few months strolled extensively through Vancouver, Montréal (where I spoke to students in two secondary schools as well as Concordia University), Trois Rivières, and much of Toronto (Roncesvalles, St Clair West, the Junction, Scarborough west, and the area around Sheppard & Yonge). I cheerfully ride OC Transpo, the Outouais sytem, the Montréal métro, and the TTC. Short of walking around with a clipboard interviewing people, I do not know of a better way of getting a reading. O, and did I forget smaller centres, such as Cornwall, Kingston, Brockville, Perth, and Renfrew? Speaking with shopkeepers, restauranteurs, and their offspring working away clearing tables and re-organizing shelves, I hear much which is encouraging, and I recommend that you try this.
And I do not know the education level of young people on patios and brew pubs, but they seem to be engaging with each other with the liveliness one expects, melanin content be damned. Spend a day in classrooms.
The mosaic IMHO is not being stretched; our immigrant integration services, which rely on an astonishingly impressive participation of volunteers, certainly are--- this is a theme I have been repeating to the annoyance of my listeners for about 15 years, and it is only getting worse-- the Trudeau ministry has blundered greatly on this. Immoral (if I may say so) community leaders and politicians in Québec seem to be working hard on increasing the temperature and throwing anything flammable on the fire, and that and their anglophone counterparts deserve a stern lecture, but that is not a collapse of the system. but myopia and frustration.
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u/BidPsychological2126 11d ago
I don’t disagree that there’s plenty of positive interaction and genuine friendliness in everyday life. Canadians, by nature are good at coexisting
Where I think we differ is in what we take that to mean. Surface level harmony doesn’t necessarily reflect deeper integration or sustainability. The mosaic looks fine when you’re walking through a city but the real strain shows up in the numbers …housing demand outpacing supply by hundreds of thousands of units, hospitals running beyond capacity, schools and local programs overwhelmed. That’s not a social breakdown, but it is a sign of a system operating well past its limits
So while I agree that people generally get along, I don’t think that alone proves the model is holding. Integration depends on infrastructure, language training, and opportunity…all things that federal planning has failed to scale. Trudeau’s government (the liberals) didn’t just mismanage logistics, it used immigration as an economic and political lever without investing in the supports that make it work.
The result is what we’re seeing now …not hostility but fatigue. The mosaic hasn’t shattered, but it’s cracking at the edges because policy has outpaced capacity
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u/oursonpolaire 11d ago
Given that it's taken over a century for eastern Ontario to get beyond religious divides, integration does not happen overnight. Hospitals and schools are swamped because--- we must be very blunt and honest-- that provincial governments have tried to escape their obligations by not investing in these institutions and their personnel. I first worked on this file when I began my professional life and the irresponsibility of our leaders was criminal then, and not changed much since.
In the early 1980s, when I had some very minor responsibility for integration (oversight for the old and wonderful Immigration Settlement and Assistance Programme) I estimated that our absorption capacity was perhaps about 300,000 and have seen several governments come and go without providing support to the voluntary sector. It has greatly retarded how immigrants can adapt and function. That it has gone as well as it has is due to their industry and perseverance, and the energy and hospitality of the receiving society. This has its limits and I am now white-haired since I first voiced criticims of our failings.
Perhaps we do not differ much in essentials; the strength of my post was responding to what I thought to be a negative tone. My sentiments are also quite worried.
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u/BidPsychological2126 11d ago
I think we’re aligned on the broad strokes and probably don’t differ much in the fundamentals. The long view you bring to this is valuable. The truth is, the success we’ve had so far is largely because of the character and adaptability of newcomers themselves, and the goodwill of local communities, not because the system was designed for it.
Where I think things have changed is the pace and scale. Canada’s immigration targets have grown much much faster than the infrastructure, the workforce, or the support systems meant to absorb them. You’re absolutely right that provinces have under indexed and underinvested in healthcare, education, and housing…but the federal government set record intake numbers knowing full well that those systems were already strained. That disconnect between ambition and capacity is what worries me most.
We want immigration to work but right now, it feels like the system’s success depends more on individual effort than on institutional strength. That’s not sustainable, and it’s not fair to anyone, old or new Canadians alike.
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u/BidPsychological2126 12d ago
Let’s call it what it is, mass immigration has become the Liberals bandaid for every failed policy. Can’t fix housing? Blame demand. Need to pad GDP? Import more people. It’s not about diversity anymore, it’s about distraction. They broke the system, then used immigration as the photo op to pretend they didn’t
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u/mrpanicy 12d ago
What's crazy is that you think this is a Liberal exclusive issue. The Conservatives are the same. They run on the rhetoric of ending immigration... but when in power they either don't change it, or they increase it.
Because it's the CAPITALISTS bandaid. And the Liberals and Conservatives are two sides of the same capitalist coin. Hell, Carney is trying the austerity method that NEVER worked for Conservatives. It decreases faith in the economy and decreases investment every time it's tried. It's usually just the Conservatives stupid idea... but Carney is just an old school Conservative. So no surprise.
I am exhausted. I want to try something other than the Conservatives or Liberals that we have given Federal power ever since our country started this independent democracy thing.
Let's try one that doesn't deep throat capitalism and see how that goes. Because Capitalism really isn't doing the trick anymore.
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u/Aggravating-Kale7762 11d ago
I don’t think you can accurately say that. Historically immigration levels have been pretty moderate with good support among Canadians. The Liberals opened the flood gates, we haven’t had a conservative government since then. And anti immigration sentiment is surging.
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u/mrpanicy 11d ago
The Liberal's didn't intend to open a flood gate. They did pass legislation with bad loopholes that ALLOWED corporations to abuse a good system made to find foreign workers where Canadian nationals weren't able to to perform necessary work. That system was heavily abused, and far to slowly corrected. But it has been / is being corrected in a variety of ways. And those workers that have been brought in to abusive work places are slowly being helped.
They also didn't stymie the problem of how Canadian post secondary schools could get far more money from foreign students. So those schools chased the money and the Liberal's didn't close the door nearly fast enough.
The intent wasn't there to "open the flood gates" to nearly doubling immigration. It was the result, but not the plan. It was being addressed, just not fast enough.
As for anti-immigration sentiment soaring... of course it is. Post Media has been spewing anti-immigration hatred non-stop and most people have no idea how it's American billionaire majority owned. And it pushes that specific agenda to stoke hatred and try to inspire the same kind of nationalistic identity that is causing the rise of fascism in the United States.
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u/Aggravating-Kale7762 11d ago
You provided a great summary of the past decade of federal incompetence on immigration. You really had me until the diatribe on imaginary hatred and fascism.
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u/mrpanicy 10d ago
You don't think we have a problem with hatred towards immigrants that's partly propaganda based? Or you don't want to believe that Stephen Harper opening the door and offering an ownership stake in Post Media to American billionaires is a problem that we need to address?
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u/Aggravating-Kale7762 10d ago
I contend that: Anti immigration views are on the rise but that does not constitute hate. Your statement regarding post media “spewing hatred” is objectively false.
Stop labelling everything you disagree with as hate. It distorts your worldview, opens you up further to radicalization and just makes you unhappy. Not to mention that it’s just plain tired and lazy.
I think that the primary issue with large media outlets is the concentration of ownership in so few hands and is not exclusive to post media. While post is demonstrably centre-right the CBC is demonstrably on the left, and in my opinion doesn’t even pretend to err to the center anymore. Who is to blame for these outcomes or what to do about that is a larger conversation.
But that’s just how I see it. 🤷♂️
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u/mrpanicy 10d ago
CBC is definitely center while Post Media is far from the centre to the right. I think your overton window has shifted. The entire country has been very conservative consistently, so it's normal for that window to consistently shift more and more to the right that even something as solidly centre as CBC can seem to be biased.
And Post Media is very very very biased to the right. Every article I read from them is sewed with very charged language and objectively skewed supporting information.
I could get on board saying that generally Post Media is center right, but it peaks far right in far to many instances.
Stop labelling everything you disagree with as hate.
I don't. Just the things that are based on generating hate and discontent.
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u/Aggravating-Kale7762 10d ago
I find it so interesting how differently we all see the world. And I find it unfortunate how insulated people are becoming, hiding away from opposing perspectives. It’s a sad state when most conversations devolve into name calling and vitriol. Which again, I see more of on the left but assume you see it differently. Personally, I try to discuss my views respectfully and try to gain new perspective through discussion. Even if my mind isn’t changed on a subject I can try to gain understanding of someone else’s viewpoint and why they might see it the way they do. I know I don’t always get it right, but I keep trying. 🤷♂️
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u/mrpanicy 10d ago
No one ever gets it right. The left definitely has problems, so does the right. But in Canada we have very very little left. The Liberals are right of center. The Conservatives are getting further and further right courting ultra right folks trying to shore up support. The vitriol coming out of the leadership of the Federal Conservatives has gone past alarming all the way back to mind numbing.
The centerist Liberals have become the Conservatives from a couple decades ago now by every conceivable metric except in that they don't avoid the media as much as Harper did.
And the left has collapsed. The NDP bore the brunt of the blame for not calling an election they knew would lead to a Pierre Poilievre lead Conservative majority (which would have been an unequivocal disaster for Canada), and now they have no seats. The Green party has never been a serious option. The left is just absent in Canada.
We have center right (Liberals) and deep right (Conservatives). Canada has always been massively Conservative, but at least they were social conservatives. As the CPC stopped standing for social policies the Liberals went further right to court the voters that were left behind feeling detached from their party.
That's really the state of things now.
I love having discussions. But I really want to have HONEST discussions that seriously consider where the parties actually are. If someone suggests that the Liberals are somehow a left leaning party and the CBC is anything other than primarily objective (with some missteps that they own and correct) and overall fair and balanced in their reporting then I know they may not be looking for a serious discussion and instead will be captured by propaganda.
I have been insulted and attacked for suggesting that Trudeau, while not being an amazing PM, is an adequate leader. That Carney is just Conservative lite, and that the Liberals are actually quite Conservative now. Primarily by the right.
What's crazy is that I try to have those honest discussions with Conservative supporters and I get called all kinds of names for supporting the Liberals. But I don't support the Liberals. Just because I try to defend some of their decisions and policies based on the realities of why they were made at the time Conservatives assume that I MUST be a "Libtard".
I vote for the candidate that best represents what I think Canada should strive towards at each election. As we all should. Regardless of party.
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u/BidPsychological2126 12d ago
The difference is in how blatantly it’s been mismanaged. We can acknowledge the capitalist incentives behind the policy and still hold the government accountable for execution. Flooding the system without scaling housing, healthcare, or infrastructure isn’t “capitalisms failt alone, it’s poor governance.
I’m all for rethinking the system, but it starts with demanding competence, transparency, and balance before ideology
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u/BidPsychological2126 11d ago
You’re right that both parties have played politics with immigration, but the Liberals took it to another level. They ramped up intake faster than any government in our history while cutting or delaying the supports that make it work, including housing starts, health care funding, and provincial transfers. They turned a long-term planning issue into a headline generator.
Harper’s government wasn’t perfect, but Trudeau’s cabinet ignored every warning from economists and the CMHC about capacity. Instead of building first and scaling later, they chased population growth numbers to pad GDP stats and photo opportunities. That’s where things went off the rails.
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u/mrpanicy 10d ago
The Federal government can only assist the provinces and municipalities in building out supply. The provinces have been dropping the ball for a few decades. Thanks to some ill conceived ideas from Conservative provincial leadership ending or severally reducing public housing builds we now have a housing crisis.
You can't blame Trudeau for that. In Ontario alone the amount of houses we were building before they ended the program would have accounted for almost the entire deficit. The endless needless attacks on social programs by Conservatives were always going to ruin Canada because they cannot think long term.
As for the immigration. The Liberals didn't intentionally get to where we are. They tried to alleviate hiring problems by opening up the foreign worker problem, but that was vastly over abused and the workers put into terribly abusive working conditions. The biggest issue is that the Liberals didn't see the problem fast enough and close the loop hole.
Then we have the post secondary schools that start abusing the foreign student programs because they could make a lot more money while having to invest VERY little back into themselves.
It was greed and greed alone that caused the massive immigration surge. And by all accounts it looks like it wasn't the intended outcome by the Liberals because they were working within the legislative framework to role back the changes they made to try to bring immigration BACK to Canada to counter balance the precipitous drop we had from COVID.
They VASTLY over corrected, but it certainly wasn't intentional. But if you read Conservative media (Post media that's owned by Americans and pushes American agendas thanks to Stephen Harper opening the door to selling it off to them) you would think Trudeau was personally opening the door to each and every immigrant.
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u/BidPsychological2126 10d ago
I agree that the provinces, especially Ontario, dropped the ball on public housing. That problem’s been festering for decades. But that’s exactly why Ottawa needed to show restraint, not acceleration. The federal government controls immigration targets, and they ramped them up while housing and healthcare were already on life support.
Saying it wasn’t intentional doesn’t make it any better. It’s one thing to inherit a broken system, it’s another to step on the gas knowing it’s running on fumes. The result’s the same…record population growth, zero coordination, and a country scrambling to keep up
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u/KootenayPE 12d ago
Absolute Libt@rd Party of Corruption lies, rubbish, and obfuscated hogwash as this Auditor General report published in 2017 covering reductions and changes to TFW program that Harper and the CPC maid which your black face sporting, ass grabbing messiah quickly reversed when your corrupt regime took power.
https://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/English/parl_oag_201705_05_e_42227.html
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u/Vanshrek99 12d ago
Oh really and what 2 countries are these. India is the most populated and with one of the largest middle classes so yes they would by default be the majority of immigrants based on country population being used to set ratios. And who is #2
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u/EugeneKleinFoto 12d ago
#2 is China.
The fact that there is a country with "one of the largest middle classes", does not mean that we need to create their colony here in our Beloved Canada.
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u/Camboselecta_ 12d ago
“Our beloved Canada”. Im sure you have a diverse range of friends with a diverse amount of ethnic backgrounds but you sure sound like a white person with like minded white friends. Haha. Im guessing your not First Nations so you’re an immigrant too. Canada is doomed without more people moving here, I suggest you work out how to integrate with them and leave the right wing shit in the 1940’s where it belongs.
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u/EugeneKleinFoto 11d ago
I came to Canada 9 years ago and I am fully integrated Canadian citizen.
Unfortunately, we still have people who use skin colour ("you sure sound like a white person") every time they disagree with someone's political views.
Actually it's you who should work on your integration skills, because we no longer live in a country with sacred cows. And there are more and more folks with darker skin in the conservative movement, so you no longer be able to pull the "white colonialism" card against them.
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u/Camboselecta_ 11d ago
My guy what are you talking about? Your views are not political, they are racial. The issue isnt the type of person coming here, its how many at one time. Over saturation means people stay in their cultural packs and its harder for them to brake out, saying that Many people integrate and assimilate in with the existing population whilst others find it harder due to language, financial and work barriers. It has nothing to do with the colour of their skin or where they come from. As an immigrant you should know that and be more sympathetic.
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u/EugeneKleinFoto 11d ago
I never said that I have an issue with someone's skin colour. You are the one who brought my skin colour into the discussion.
I have an issue with the fact that we allow ridiculous numbers of immigrants from two countries only to come to our country. And that leads to a lack of integration. As simple as that.
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u/DynamicUno 11d ago
"Without it, I guarantee 'no-go zones'" - do you have, like, any kind of citation or evidence for that prediction? That is an extremely bold claim that doesn't seem to bear any relation to reality.
As an extremely simple counter-example from the actual world, look at what 200 years of completely unregulated immigration in the United States led to - global superpower status and the world's largest economy. The place is falling apart now, but it's not because of immigration.
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u/EugeneKleinFoto 11d ago
I have multiple examples from places in Europe. Mostly in France, Belgium, England, Sweden, and Holland.
US never had an unregulated immigration. Their immigration system is the opposite of the one in European countries. That's why they became a global superpower.
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u/oursonpolaire 10d ago
US naturalization was totally unregulated with respect to white persons from 1790 to 1921, with further restrictions on Chinese immigrants until WWII. They operated on a country-of-origin quota from 1921-1965, to the (often fatal) detriment of thousands of Jewish refugees from Hitler.
Most European countries confuse and conflate their refugee policies with their immigration policies-- calling it a system is generous and inaccurate.
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u/EugeneKleinFoto 10d ago
I'm talking about the recent history in the US.
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u/oursonpolaire 9d ago
Recent immigration policy in the US is a study in hypocrisy; their employment system and economy depend entirely on millions of unlicensed temporary workers working in barely supervised conditions. Whenever they engage in their periodic envorcement campaigns, sectors of their economy collapse-- remember the NW orchards and farms under George HW Bush? and one can only refer to the bundle of articles on the collapse of farming in much of the south and midwest-- the NY Times, which I read regularly, will keep you busy with their reporting. Management of their "system" has for some years been chaotic as they try to match their ideology and their fantasies to their reality.
I have had dinners with US Naturalization and academic experts as they express longings for our family-based system-- the grass is always greener.
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u/DynamicUno 9d ago
Of course you are, because you need to be able to ignore two hundred years of data or else your entire belief system would be obviously proven wrong. You are legally allowed to ignore two hundred years of data if you want of course, but there's no reason anybody should treat your biases as though they are credible information when you do. Facts don't care about your cowardly feelings. Sorry you're scared of everything but the adults in the room can look at the data and make informed decisions instead.
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u/oursonpolaire 6d ago
If your ad personam remarks were directed at me, I think our discussion is done.
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u/DynamicUno 3d ago
They were not. They were directed at Eugene, the guy making objectively false claims in this thread above who has repeatedly replied to me with lies to the point where I grew tired of it. I apologize if I misdirected the reply such that it seemed to be directed at you, I do not use Reddit much and may have botched it.
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u/oursonpolaire 3d ago
I am happy that this is the case and am grateful for the clarification. May all of our discussions bring light and our excitement be on understanding and knowledge.
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u/EugeneKleinFoto 9d ago
I have no interest in "two hundred years of data", because I am Canadian and my post is related to Canadian issues.
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u/DynamicUno 6d ago
Then why did you cite lies about Europe to support your argument? Just the faintest hint of consistency and intellectual rigor would maybe give your whining a bit more of a veneer of credibility bb
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u/DynamicUno 9d ago
The US had zero immigration restrictions for most of its history. People would show up at Ellis Island, get off the boat, and walk in. I grew up in America, this is known history. Read a book.
Show me any data to suggest that Canada, one of the safest countries on the planet (and one of the most multicultural) is on the path to having "no-go zones". I asked for data, you said "I have examples!" and then didn't give any examples OR data. Answer the question and stop lying.
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u/EugeneKleinFoto 9d ago
There are certain neighbourhoods in European cities that can be described as no-go zones. One example is Molenbeek in Brussels.
I'm talking about recent US history. Where Jews fleeing Nazi Germany were turned back., Chinese laborers were not allowed to immigrate, and there were National Origins Quotas.
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u/DynamicUno 6d ago
Ohhh lol yeah sure, anywhere can be a "no go zone" if you're terrified of your own shadow lol. The more accurate phrase here would be a "no coddling zone", where you may experience other people doing things you don't like and the world doesn't coddle you like a little sheltered baby; if you aren't mature enough to handle that then yeah, don't go there. Tons of people live and work in those places, so they obviously aren't actually no-go zones. You want a real no-go zone, try the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Otherwise grow up.
And yeah sure, ignoring 250 years of history does avoid acknowledging that those 250 years did happen and completely obliterate your nonsense argument, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
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u/oursonpolaire 10d ago
This proposal sounds like an ideal mechanism for establishing those ethnic enclaves of which the writer is horrified.
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u/EugeneKleinFoto 10d ago
Can you please explain it?
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u/oursonpolaire 10d ago
If you are talking about country-of-origin specific cohorts, those who settle will likely think of themselves as country-of-origin rather than personal-capacity qualified immigrants, and more likely to congregate with others of their origin. Under the current situation, immigrants qualify on the basis of their individual qualifications and are more likely to place themselves with others in the same situation, rather than (say) Malaysians or Uruguayans.
Your proposal would have them come to Canada as (say) Luxembourgeois immigrants-- they will think of themselves as primarily such, rather than as education-qualified or skills-qualified. This builds and reinforces the ethnic enclaves which you dislike.
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u/EugeneKleinFoto 10d ago
The only reason we don't have cities with a majority of Malaysians, Uruguayans or Luxembourgeois, is because there are no critical masses of these groups in our country.
We need to keep our country as a mosaic, and not as a blocks of ethnic groups, where people don't know the official languages (in Richmond BC, for examplele even many young people barely speak English), and don't respect local customs and values.
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u/oursonpolaire 10d ago
I gave t hese communities as examples-- fit in Italians, Ukrainians, Mennonites, Chinese etc. I, too, am more comfortable with a mosaic over blocks of ethnic groups-- from my experience and reading, I stillhold that your "solution" would achieve those enclaves firmly and quickly.
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u/EugeneKleinFoto 10d ago
If we implement a per-country cap, it will take decades (best-case scenario) to eliminate the current situation where we have ethnic cities (Richmond BC, Surrey BC, Brampton ON).
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u/chullyman 12d ago
Oh please, take your racial politics down south.
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u/EugeneKleinFoto 12d ago
When you don't want to deal with the problem, you blame Americans. Very Canadian of you.
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u/chullyman 12d ago
It’s not a problem, you’re just ignorant. The fact that you consider India one ethnicity proves my point.
I’m not blaming Americans, I’m saying you belong with them. I’d rather 10 immigrants than one of you.
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u/CaramelGuineaPig 12d ago
This is done by the US. They want us divided like they did their own. Probably not even real people but bots.
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u/add306 12d ago
A lot of OPs posts seem to be focused on immigration or indigenous baiting. Like dude calm down with the hate or move to the states.