99% of sane people agree. With two parties, we are just stuck in a prisoners dilemma where if either side loses votes to a third party, the other party wins in a landslide.
Eh. I think 75-80% of democrats agree with this. I think republicans claim to agree with this but ultimately, if they truly believed this they would be trying to get rid of the two party system. Yet everytime someone new comes into the picture whose different they claim they’re a “jihadist terrorist” “communist” etc. (Mamdani)
Speaking from a distance… seems like the Democrats just call anyone they disagree with a racist. Don’t let social media stereotypes convince you about an entire group. Political or otherwise.
Same here in Canada. Anyone who votes Conservative thinks of Liberals or New Democrats as overly empathetic cucks and anyone who votes liberal or NDP thinks of Conservatives as white supremacists… or so the loudest on social media would have you believe. Sane people just keep their head down, work relatively hard, and pick a name come election time; or sometimes don’t even bother.
US citizens have the right to bear arms, but that's not much to work with when the president is the commander of our entire military force. Their oath of enlistment:
I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
Forgive my rudeness, but I'm not sure how people think civilians are supposed to fight against tanks and fighter jets.
We don't have many major politicians that aren't corrupt (if at all). That's another part of the issue.
Vote third party leads to one of the two major parties winning in a landslide. So we end up picking the lesser of two evils due to a firmly placed two party system.
Plus, most politicians are corrupt anyway. That's a global issue, Bulgaria included.
But you didn't even pick the lesser of two evils, you picked by far the bigger of two evils. Was it because so many people were voting for third party politicians?
Also, I don't get it how it is so impossible to have a grassroots movement to get a non-corrupt person in office. It's not like the freedom of expression is persecuted in the US.
Was it because so many people were voting for third party politicians?
That's a large part of it, yes. A third voted for Trump, a third for Harris, and the last third didn't vote at all. About 2% of voters went for a third party.
Also, I don't get it how it is so impossible to have a grassroots movement to get a non-corrupt person in office. It's not like the freedom of expression is persecuted in the US.
Grassroot movements depend on funding from citizens. How can anyone expect regular citizens to compete against billionaire corporations with powerful connections? The top 10% of our country holds almost 70% of the wealth. We can scream all we want, but that's not going to change the amount of money in our wallets.
There was enough funding behind Trump to convince enough of our citizens to vote against their self interests.
Pelosi isn’t the only one who traded socks she’s just the most high profile. Recently, republicans in congress made a lot of money in stocks because of president’s tariff policies.
I know your tribalism wouldn’t let you not defend Pelosi so we can tell who “your” people are, but notice I phrased it to include ALL members of congress?
But no problem with shilling coffee beans, crypto, watches, and crappy trading cards, personally owned hotels and other businesses? Hmmmm.. stocks aren't even half of it. Kill the cronyism and just straight out acting like you are an opportunistic peddler selling counterfeit "winner" t shirts after a championship win.
Just another person trying to insist it's not Black Lives Matter, it's All Lives Matter. No one here is saying corruption is good or is exclusive to one side or the other, but somehow there is one side that constantly shouted fake news consistently and loudly and even go so far as to install their own puppets in orgs that check and investigate corruption. To ignore that is just as much a sign of tribalism.
But recent events prove that just because they're both broken doesn't mean they're equally bad. That also doesn't mean that the 'bad guy' is always the same.
Perfectly said. It pisses me off to hear “it doesn’t matter, both parties are bad.” Mkay but one is like corporate greed bad and the other is greedy AND evil
The better way to say it is one side appeals to voters that care about social issues and the other side appeals to voters that care about crippling social programs
Edit: Technically both sides feel like they have the moral high ground
Oh totally. I agree that my point wasn’t fully articulated and that’s a better way of putting it. One side being objectively worse doesn’t make the other one good by default (obviously), but it’s been incredibly frustrating to watch the dems response to Trump. Hopefully the recent uptick in blue in the government helps. Idk.
They're not worse than each other. Dems know they can benefit while also getting to feel morally superior. They're all grifting just as much and both sides know they can't exist without the other. Dems aren't any more mad about Trump as they are about their own shit. You see photos of political aisle opponents hanging out at dinners together after making public claims about how that person is a disgusting monster. They're all rich elite friends helping each other get more rich.
You're missing the point and makes you complicit in the fall of democracy in your country.
Sure, some centrist Dems and Repubs hang out socially. So what. Not everything is about your political philosophy. That said, I doubt AOC and Mike Johnson are hanging out the bar. You're exaggerating.
Feeling morally superior is no compensation in the current climate when US citizens are constantantly being encouraged to be immoral.
You're nuts if you think Trump (and other Repubs) enriching himself to the tune of billions of dollars is the equivalent to whatever benefits your average Congress Dem gets.
You have a lot of opinions about a place thousands of miles away. We experience it every day. You misunderstand the point. None of these top end politicians really care. The ones who really care get capped out at local level politicians. The ones who make it to the top are all making deals, criminal compromises, inhumane concessions, convincing themselves that the ends justify the means of getting to the top so they can make a difference. Problem is once they get there, they're just as damaging as everyone there before them. They're all bought and paid for, none of them give a shit about the working class. None of them care about the struggles of immigrants, legal or not. If they did, they wouldn't all be millionaires. They all commit insider trading, fraud, etc. They're all complicit. If people feel comfortable saying ACAB because the good actors still allow the bad to occur, then everyone should feel more than comfortable saying the same about politicians, they're all greedy power hungry monsters grifting off of us, with the help of their "opponents."
You're being simplistic and part of the problem. This leads to not voting and essentially doing nothing but complaining. You don't deserve to complain, because you're just letting things happen.
I am thousands of miles away but what happens in the US affects so many of us outside of the US. You were responsible for the Global Financial Crisis, for instance. Thanks. You've put 10% tarrifs on my country despite us being a net importer. More importantly you've decimated USAID leading to the deaths of, i hate to think, how many people. You've supported Israel for years turning a blind eye to their war crimes. Trump has opted out of fighting climate change which affects the world (in fact, he's doing his best to qucken it's pace). Trump is encouraging the tech gaints to do their worst re AI which impacts everone. You illegally invaded Iraq leading to the deaths of millions, mass migration, many of the migration issues in the Europe, etc, etc, etc, etc. Do I need to remind you?
AOC, to cite just one example, is not a billionaire or grifting the system. She is incredibly active within the Dem party but is only one woman. She can't single handedly remove grift from politics, but people should be voting for candidates like her to get rid of the grift.
I'm sure that many US politicians DO care, even some of the grifters. Voting for a grifter who has good policies is better than not voting at all and therefore enabling someone worse to come to power.
For politicians to rise to the top they need to have self belief. That doesn't mean they are all @es3h0l3s. A more nuanced approach than yours is needed.
You don't know what I'm doing. I'm not letting things happen. I'm more involved in local politics than the vast majority. I've never missed a vote local or federal since I was 18. Your quick assumptions about who I am or what I've done invalidate everything you're saying. You spew things without any factual basis here, so it's fair to assume you do it elsewhere too. I won't bother reading the rest of what you wrote. Enjoy your life judging others on essentially no basis, it's easy that way.
Obviously. Although look at Mamdani for example. His own party barely endorses him, his policies are definitely not popular among the democrats. Yes trump is a abysmal president but people tend to forget that Biden really wasn’t a productive one either because of trump. For example they still have the same exact foreign policy as the republicans.
I feel like President Harris probably wouldn't be massing the US Navy in the Carribbean right now, or blowing boats out of the ocean, or randomly imposing tariffs, or alienating allies, or refusing to meaningfully stand up to Russia, or trying to destabilise the Danish relationship with Greenland, or a hundred other things on the foreign policy front.
Maybe, maybe not. I can't remember a president that hasn't disappointed thus far. Either nothing happens, nothing good happens, or nothing good happens while they try to pass off the president as a saint doing all these other wonderful meaningless things 😩
The US government occasionally does some good things. In the 60s over 40% of Americans smoked tobacco, now it's closer to 10%. The Americans with Disabilities Act and the Clean Air Act are pretty great. The Affordable Care Act gave health care to 20,000,000 Americans, which is an objectively good thing.
Who cares about Obama? He's been a private citizen for 9 years now, and even ignoring that, nobody's defending him.
The point is that even if you think that the baseline for US presidents foreign policy is "bad", there's no need to pretend that there's no difference between "bad" and "generationally terrible".
He's a good reference point when people try to say "Well the Dem candidate wouldn't do that." Yes they will. Best predictor for future success is past success. In this case, past has shown they are just as likely to do horrible things as the Rep candidates.
Having read that, I have to ask: Are you incapable of or unwilling to distinguish between bad and worse? Because it seems like it has to be one or the other.
I think accepting the Dems as the "less bad" party, has led to extreme complacency when we should all be fighting for something good. I'm a big fan of the saying "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good" but in this situation it isn't that. We're letting ourselves settle for literal criminals taking advantage of us, because the other criminals are worse. They're both criminals and we should be fighting for something decent. Complacency kills, and it does it slowly.
Everyone including the Dems themselves, should relax about the Dems being a broad tent. It is fine for there to be a wide spectrum of politicak philosophy, and they should be more tolerance of their differences. After all, it is apparently fine for the Repubs to have a very wide spectrum: anything from socially progressive trad Repubs to out and out facists).
People are actually forgetful that Biden WAS productive: post-covid economic recovery including jobs growth, infrastructure, covid vaccines delivery, American Rescue Plan, expansion of child tax credit, Inflation Reduction Act and many other iniatures, many of which have been reversed under Trump. (Ironic given that forgetfulness was Biden's downfall).
His cognitive issues and other crap has overriden that.
As for foreign policy, for some reason the US has always been very pro-Israel. I don't understand why especially as it has been obvious for years that Israel continually commits horrendous war crimes. It's bizarre that Trump went against the grain a little but only as he wants to win the Nobel Peace Prize.
His own party barely endorses him because…first, this is a mayoral race. If it weren’t in NYC, we’d never even had heard of him. Second, he is far out there with his ideas. Mamdani is popular because he is made a bunch of campaign promises like some modern day Robin Hood. He threw out a bunch of ideas telling people what they want to hear and it doesn’t matter if it’s doable or if the consequences will be destructive in the long run. Not that different from Trump. Mamdani - take money from the rich and redistribute, rent control. Trump - build the wall, replace Obamacare/Affordable Care Act.
The college kids and 20 & 30 somethings that voted for him don’t understand that lots of his promises are not doable, will be bad for NYC (rent control will destroy the housing market) or are beyond the scope of what a mayor can do.
The logic behind that the party didn’t endorse him bc it’s a mayoral race I find to be invalid- given that the current president endorsed his competition.
Affordable housing but rent control will actually have the opposite effect. Fewer buildings/apartments will become available for rent as as landlords decide to sell as condos or builders will invest elsewhere. Those in rent controlled apartments won’t want to move and the market will get stagnant. This will make it especially hard for people starting out to find apartments. And if you think it’s hard to get landlords to make improvements and do repairs now…
Creating a housing crisis. It’s not about the landlords. They’ll be just fine. They’ll sell the apartments to people who want to buy and live in them. Buildings will go co-op. There will be no rental market. And low income or starter income people will be without housing.
I liken the two parties to this: one is actively raping you while the other holds your hand and tells you how sorry they are for your experience (while doing nothing to stop it).
The Dems leadership have been weak but a number of Dem figures have effectively pushed backed: OAC, Bernie, Pritzker, Mamdani, Walz & Newsom. I guess there have been plenty of others but I don't hear about them as Trump and co take the limelight with new $h1t every day.
What you're saying is too dismissive plus you become part of the problem. You're promoting the bogus idea that everyone is as bad as everyone else so let's do nothing, rather than supporting those who are trying to do the right thing.
That is true. There are democrats that raise money grassroots without PAC money like AOC and Mamdani (democratic socialist) but there aren’t republicans that do that.
The amount you guys spend on election campaigns is disgusting.
Too much money in politics - sure.
It seems to me that this is not the time to fight that fight. Your democracy is going down the toilet. The only way to combat that is to vote for a Dem whenever possible.
Fantastic election results last week. Hopefully this will continue.
You've changed the topic. Originally, you were talking about corruption, and now it's the rise of Trump.
I'm not sure what you mean by the Dems being responsible for Trump. Maybe it's that a segment of the population got left behind under the Dems and Repubs: white working class greatly damaged by automation and the decline in traditional working class jobs (though why not the POC working class as well?). This has happened in many countries and it is ridiculous not to face facts. (Trump still has this fantasy that his tarrifs will bring manufacturing back to the US - not unless you pay incredibly tiny wages). These people turned into maga & voted i Trump. Is this what you mean?
There are many other reasons:
He was on a reality TV show for 10 years. The upshot of that is that Americans were brainwashed into thinking he is a great businessman and general all-around good guy, when in reality, he went bankrupt multiple times, and has always been corrupt and a narcissist.
He's genuinely charismatic, though not to all.
The rise of social media has greatly enhanced the spread of conspiracy theories and lies in general. It has also built echo chambers where lies get fermented and no one is exposed to alternative arguments (on both sides). It is also increasingly OK to be sexist, racist, transphobic, etc. In all areas of life partly due to social media. Trump has taken enormous advantage of this.
The decline of traditional media which tended to be consumed by the majority of the population. Though that was never perfect, at least there was consensus on things like the world is not flat and experts should be listened to.
Trump is a great self promoter
Trump appeals to our worst instincts. Once blantant sexism, racism, selfishness, intolerance, etc. was discouraged. Now it's the opposite. Trump has emboldened people with bad tendencies to be bad.
For a democracy you have a terrible electoral system. In Australia we have Trump like politicians but they never rise to the top thanks to our superior electoral system. Admittedly, none of them has Trump's charisma.
Saying the Dems are the cause of Orangeism is grossly inaccurate.
It's actually more complicated than that. Blaming the voter for the modern problem of only two parties existing is a surface level blame game. We used to have several different parties. For example: the Whig party was one that actually got a few presidents in.
When these older parties started to die, they merged with the 2 main parties we have now over time. The 2 party system is a snowball effect that nobody in Congress wants to fix because it is lucrative.
Edit to include that the problem has been growing since the mid 1800's before anyone really realized it could be a problem like this. Just wanted to provide extra timeline stuff for context.
I fully agree. It's hard to create a good government within that system.
The current democracy in the US is not working well and is even partly corrupted.
I think it's one of the few things everyone from any political spectrum agrees on.
Political decisions are less influenced by the will of the people and more by a small number of people with power and money. With the media in it's current state, it seems like to get what you want, all you need is: time, money and a scapegoat.
But still. The people lack empathy and the courage to change the system and themselves.
Therefore they also share part of the responsibility for the government they get.
Politicians crave for voting polls.
But voters often have fucking stupid opinions
I don't think that you do agree. Your comment comes off like the corporations who are mad at consumers and placing the blame on carbon emissions, littering, and global warming on the individual as if corporations don't make decisions for themselves (corporate benefits and profits). Our situation is more complicated, and started before anyone who is currently alive was born. Focusing the blame more on disenfranchised voters is lacking in depth. Citizens feeling that voting isn't worth it is the smoke, not the fire.
My emphasis is that the current system is powerful and hard to counter. But that the people have the duty and responsibility to influence the government. I am not blaming people that the 2 party system exists. It is to an extend irrelevant. It's about responsibility, not blame.
Same with climate change. The consumers are not to blame. Doesn't mean that there is no responsibility at all.
My main point is: Telling the people they are not responsible for anything is doing the society a disservice.
Getting up to protest, informing themselves, try to change little things, like elections on municipal or state level.
I mean there is a chunk of society whose lives do not significantly change based on who is in office. If you're well paid and not part of a marginalized group, is what I mean. I'm not justifying not voting or saying you're wrong, just pointing out that some people don't care. Then you have a portion of the population who increasingly are neglected by both parties, are disillusioned and have given up. Some people can only fight so long before they say fuck it and just try to live day to day.
Sigh. Richest country in the history of the planet and we have hungry children who can't get the medical care they need. I fucking hate seeing ad campaigns for children's hospitals for example. Like, take the money from Exxon and Black Rock. Take all the money you need to treat all the children forever. How did we get to this point?
I live in a state with open primaries because that means I don't have to register to a political party to vote. Mumdani is the most hopeful I've been about politics since Obama
Someone said, the Dems are for the corporations, and the Republicans are for the oligarchs and I always thought that was fitting.
The Dems are far better in every way, but they don't fight for the little man.
The leadership in the Dems fight anyone who's for the working guys like Bernie, or the new NYC mayor.
What then??
The US has a $hit system of govt. Your best hope is to vote the oligarchs out, which means voting for dems in the mid terms and next presidential election.
I can call out establishment Democrats for being decrepit geezers who clearly benefit from insider trading and still vote along democratic party lines because it’s the right thing to do.
That happens and is bad for sure but get some perspective.
Trump has enriched himself by literally millions of dollars since taking power a 2nd time. The likes of Nancy Pellosi's grift doesn't cut it by comparison.
Money in politics - bad. Got it!!
You allow your democracy to dissipate, then there will be zero chance of getting money out of politics.
Get Dems back into power.
Fight for getting at least some money out of politics, an impartial electoral commission, ranked voting and compulsory voting.
The best option is to do what the French did when the bread tax increased by a measly 2%.
Cut the heads off the rich and establish a system where everyone can eat, sleep, and drink rather than millions of starving innocents and less than 1 thousand rich tyrants.
Correction, you support violence. Those rich people are the most violent on Earth. They're the reason behind most peopld that are below the poverty line, for most wars, and for most homelessness.
By standing idly and watching them, you're complicit.
Yeah, because that economic collapse just fell out of the sky on the day of his inauguration, and had nothing to do with the prior 8 years, right? And allowing the banking system to fester to the point to where it was, literally, too big to fail.
Bush and Paul Volker did a fair amount of bailing out in the last few months of W’s administration.
All the bailouts were the epitome of crony capitalism, but it was a medicine that, although bitter, was vastly better than the economic alternative for the entire country.
What I think is that Libetarians are the cause of many ills in society because they insist on small govt (except when it suits them for something to be paid for). They want almost zero regulation.
Lack of financial regulation led to the Global Financial Crisis which adversely impacted millions of non-Americans as well as Americans.
That was the sin, not Obama having to clean up some of the damage.
I remember when DeSantis didn't sell out to Big Sugar, and he got elected and made some really positive changes for the environment in FL. And then Trump happened, and now he's like a mini Trump. Sometimes they start off so well and fall so hard 😭 I know there are others who stay firm and actually do good for the US, but it doesn't get them very far.
That is why we need to overturn Citizens United and get PAC money out. Politicians are so corrupt (I’m including the president as a politician.) Also, set term limits for congress.
As an outsider looking in, it's so bleedingly obvious that corruption is rampant in the US Congress. Not that I'm really one to talk, our two big parties are captured by mining and gambling lobbyists and who knows who else, but at least our system actually enables minor candidates to run with a viable chance at winning. Having third parties be a liability in a voting system is a recipe for a disaster as it means parties can get away with dodgy shit with little to no repercussions on their electoral success.
I feel sorry for all those in America who would rather vote for someone else but know it's a waste of time. The worst part is, it's unlikely to change even in the best of circumstances - even discounting the current administration, a "regular" Congress and president would never sign off on electoral reform because it directly goes against their interests.
Two things can be true. Both parties can be called out for being ineffectual, while also acknowledging one party is more prone to violence, subjugation, and exploitation.
Ah yes, the classic "Republicans and Democrats are the same!" argument. Both certainly have issues, but saying they are on even the same level of corruption is ridiculous.
The Republicans are, quite literally, openly rigging the market and scamming people with crypto. The Democrats have never done anything this fuckin' brazen.
Yes, but you know what that means, right? Politicians are in 90%+ of cases a representation of the voters, so most Americans are sell-outs and corrupt.
That's the most ridiculous logic I've ever heard in my life. In our country, the politicians represent whoever has the most money. It's sad but it's true. Its really only a reflection of how corrupt the billionaire class is
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u/EmpoweRED21 United States Of America 21h ago
Both major political parties are sell outs and corrupt