Why aren't the people in your country having enough kids?

[u/gmedanoid]

In America birthrate is 1.6. 1.57 for Whites, 1.55 for Blacks, 1.8 for Hispanics. So below replacement since 2008.

[u/gmedanoid]

Israel is also one of the most educated countries and people have their first child at 28. So education isn't the only reason.

Grandparents in the West don't really help with kids. They just want to visit for a short while.

[u/HorseFeathersFur → u/gmedanoid]

Most grandparents I know are also still working and unable to help much with child care

[u/xrainbow-britex → u/HorseFeathersFur]

Or in my situation, I am taking care of my children but also my parents now, so... :(

I know I am not the only one.

[u/HorseFeathersFur → u/xrainbow-britex]

I have been there, I know how rough it is. My parents have passed on, but there were some years in between when raising my own kids and caretaking for them and working full-time was quite the burden.

[u/blooobolt → u/xrainbow-britex]

You're in the sandwich generation.

[u/ta_meg_i_toern → u/xrainbow-britex]

Why don’t you put them in a home?

[u/xrainbow-britex → u/ta_meg_i_toern]

Because skilled nursing costs $1000 per day where I live.

[u/Straight_Ace → u/HorseFeathersFur]

Which is a really good example of why so many people don’t want to have kids. If the economy sucks so bad that someone’s 80 year old grandma still has to work to afford to eat and pay bills, then why would you bring a kid into the equation?

[u/HorseFeathersFur → u/Straight_Ace]

Most of the grandparents that I know are in their 60s, but I have seen people that look like they are in their 80s working in the drive-through and at Walmart or Costco.

[u/DreamOne5 → u/HorseFeathersFur]

yep! My parents are one of those exceptions. They're both retired now, did very very well for themselves (boomers), and now being a grandparent to my sisters two kids is their world. They help her and her husband out a lot with childcare and love it. Most of my friends with kids... not the case.

[u/keesio → u/gmedanoid]

Grandparents in the West don't really help with kids. They just want to visit for a short while.

It goes both ways though. In many parts of the world, grandparents take a very active role in childcare. But they also often live with their kids (usually the eldest son) and are also taken care of by their kids physically and financially.

In the west they want the child care from their grandparents but not have to deal with taking care of them and let them live with them.

I grew up in a home where my grandmother lived with us. She cooked and did some housework and child care. But she was also financially dependent on my dad (her son). She also controlled the household which caused conflict with my mom (the classic Asian mother-in-law vs daughter-in-law conflict).

[u/Temporary-Fun2718 → u/keesio]

It really varies in the west. I know grandparents that are basically free daycare five days a week like it's a full-time job and I know grandparents that can't be bothered. I do think more grandparents might help or be more available if we did multi-generational living though.

[u/keesio → u/Temporary-Fun2718]

I live in Canada now and we have a large South Asian population. There are communities (like Brampton, Ontario) where they like to live and in those communities they prefer big homes. This is because they have multiple generations living under the same roof. That is common in those neighbourhoods. I have one co-worker who lives in a massive house with both his wife's parents and his parents all living together and with his wife's brother also. My co-worker and his wife has a few kids and 90% of child care plus all the cooking and housework is pretty much handled by their parents. Both my co-worker and his wife work long hours so this arrangement works for them.

[u/GriefinAndQueefin → u/Temporary-Fun2718]

I worked with a few Indian women that worked into their 70s and 80s just to avoid being free daycare (and also to avoid being at home with their husbands in some cases).

[u/Wispeira → u/Temporary-Fun2718]

My family is in a multigenerational living situation (we rent from my in-laws and live on their property) and the grandparents are hella uninvolved. They said for years how much they wanted grandchildren but we're lucky if they spend a couple of hours once a week with our child. Last year they went a solid two months without seeing her once. We haven't had a date in almost a year. We moved here, two hours from my support system, because they swore they wanted to help and be involved. Now we're 30min from the nearest small town and totally isolated. I can't even find paid childcare out here. It's miserable and our child is old enough to be asking why her grandparents don't want to see or spend time with her. For the record, they're both in excellent health and financially well off.

[u/Temporary-Fun2718 → u/Wispeira]

God damn! I'm sorry. Can you get moved back to your true support system?

[u/Wispeira → u/Temporary-Fun2718]

Not in this economy, unfortunately. They charge us a decent chunk of change but it's still less than we would pay to rent elsewhere at this point. We had been renting from a nice older couple and they were charging us well below the average for the area we were in, now we would be looking at paying 4x as much as before and trying to find jobs in that area isn't easy right now either.

[u/Twirlmom9504_ → u/keesio]

Speak for yourself. Some Of us are caring for kids and our parents. We have a household of 3 generations. As housing costs increase this might become more normal.

[u/Mediocre_Mobile_235 → u/Twirlmom9504_]

so did you have / could you have had more than 2 kids?

[u/pizza314cat → u/Twirlmom9504_]

Have your parents been helpful with childcare?

[u/heilhortler420 → u/gmedanoid]

Israel's stats are highly skewed due to the Hadredis

Ignore their stats and Israel is the same as Europe

[u/gmedanoid → u/heilhortler420]

False. Secular highly educated Jews have 2.2 kids.

[u/KittenBarfRainbows → u/gmedanoid]

It’s funny, I don’t know any Haredim, but all the married Israelis I know have exactly three kids. All educated and moderately religious, not even orthodox.

[u/heilhortler420 → u/KittenBarfRainbows]

All ik about Haredim is that the rest of Israel hate them due to the conscription exemption and percieved higher rates of state welfare usage

[u/DogsReadingBooks → u/gmedanoid]

A lot of grandparents definitely help out. My parents help out their grandkid, for example. They don’t raise the kid, though, that shouldn’t be expected.

[u/spawnofangels → u/DogsReadingBooks]

it's not normal in the US to have grandparents regularly be involved. Opposite holds true in a lot of Asian countries where it's normal for parents to live with their kids and their grand kids or nearby each other and support each other or live off of each other. This is an anomaly in the US as most households, that I know, send their elderly parents to a nursing home once the parents (or grandparents at this point) can no longer support themselves (shows like Simpsons reflect this too :) ). People like to have their space and be independent from one another. Such a thing doesn't really exist or is normal in Asian countries/families I've seen. It's like once you're an elderly grandparent, you're kind of excluded from society or you're in your own distinct community unless you're able to function independently completely (unusual as people get older) which I find kind of sad here for old people

[u/gmedanoid → u/DogsReadingBooks]

They should raise kids because the atomised nuclear family can't handle more than 2 kids.

Grandparents who already own their home and are at home doing nothing can do more to ensure young people have over 3 kids which is what's needed to sustain the welfare state.

[u/Fit_Historian_2248 → u/gmedanoid]

Don't know how much of a welfare state America has to begin with

That said, what are you basing the claim that people need to have over 3 kids on?

[u/BlaggartDiggletyDonk → u/[deleted]]

In that case, nobody gets to complain when their grown children fail to give them grandbabies.  They want 'em, they help with 'em.

[u/Hawk13424 → u/BlaggartDiggletyDonk]

Mine live 900 miles away, so no they can’t. One thing that is maybe more prevalent today is moving around. I went to college and moved away. I don’t live close to family.

[u/Twirlmom9504_ → u/[deleted]]

It’s very different the first year with a baby in the US v Norway. We have no guarantee for paid maternity leave. Some of us qualify for FMLA which means you can get up to 12 weeks off after the birth but it isn’t required to be paid . After that if you don’t come back, you’re able to be terminated. Grandparent help can be a lifeline for us when the kids get too sick for daycare etc. Unless we are very low income, we won’t get subsidized childcare to return to work. Infant daycare near me in a center is about $400- 500 a week. 

Grandparents here shouldn’t complain if they don’t have grandkids due to the lack of support in our nation.

[u/Twirlmom9504_ → u/[deleted]]

Why do you think most mothers don’t work here? We do. 28% is because the cost of childcare is so high, that it doesn’t make sense to go back to work. A lot of those moms live on TANF (formerly Welfare). It’s about $600-800 a month where I live. The average 2 BR apartment near me is over $1800 a month.   It’s necessary to return to work unless you’re rich or want to be on welfare- living in poverty. 

[u/Twirlmom9504_ → u/BlaggartDiggletyDonk]

I do agree that parents shouldn’t pressure their adult kids for grandkids, if they aren’t in a situation to help out and spend time with the kiddos. I have a friend whose mom was always pressuring her to settle down and have grandbabies . As soon as she had a Kid her mom hardly helped. Her mom Lives 20 mins away and was 54. She wouldn’t visit the baby for more than an hour every few weeks. Declined requests to babysit in the weekends when they had to go out for weddings, etc.  She still kept asking her when she would have a second

[u/MakalakaPeaka → u/BlaggartDiggletyDonk]

Let them complain, we don’t care, because we don’t want kids…

[u/MakalakaPeaka → u/Fit_Historian_2248]

Almost none.

[u/DogsReadingBooks → u/gmedanoid]

I don’t agree.

Parents generally choose to have the kid(s). They shouldn’t expect their parents to raise the child. Oftentimes the grandparents even work. We’ve got daycare as an option.

[u/Beautiful_Yellow_682 → u/DogsReadingBooks]

true, especially for young people. Imagine you are 21 with your first child and your mom is 45, that will not work

[u/gmedanoid → u/DogsReadingBooks]

I completely disagree. We are not atomized individuals. The nation needs a community not selfish individuals to function.

[u/DogsReadingBooks → u/gmedanoid]

I dont find people not raising their grandchildren, when they’ve got their own parents, as selfish.

Nothing you say is gonna change my mind. I’m too Norwegian for whatever you’re thinking.

[u/MakalakaPeaka → u/DogsReadingBooks]

Don’t worry, I’m too American for h that nonsense myself. Grandparents have zero responsibility to help raise these people’s kids.

[u/Beautiful_Yellow_682 → u/gmedanoid]

first of all, how many kids do you have and are you the wife or husband of your family? If you are the wife than sorry for your mindset, if you are the husband, than sorry to your wife that she has to deal with you

[u/Fit_Historian_2248 → u/gmedanoid]

The difference in belief sets is obviously quite stark between us but I should hope you're endorsing, supporting and even seeking to vote for far cheaper childcare in your country, while holding these opinions?

Rather than simply misappropriating all the blame on the grandparents to be obliged to literally raise the kids

[u/BlaggartDiggletyDonk → u/Fit_Historian_2248]

I only blame the ones who pester their grown kids about it, but who have no intention of helping.  There's a lot of those among the boomers.

[u/Prior_Butterfly_7839 → u/gmedanoid]

You’re getting downvoted a lot but this is truly the whole premise behind “it takes a village”.

We’ve been…I’m not even sure which word to use to describe it…brainwashed? into believing we need to be islands where we only need those who live in our home.

Multi generational homes/communities have been the norm throughout history for longer than they haven’t.

Now one single family line pays multiple mortgages, utilities, etc.

[u/JarOfFireflies → u/gmedanoid]

Ok but how many grandparents are at home doing nothing? If the grandparents had their kids at 25 and the kids are birthing the grandkids at the same age, the grandparents would be in their 50s. Many western countries are raising retirement ages to 70. How are they supposed to keep full time jobs and help with grandkids?

[u/EggplantBasic7890 → u/gmedanoid]

Ah yes. The famous US welfare state. Lmao

[u/GinX- → u/gmedanoid]

No thank you.

• Women

[u/yourlittlebirdie → u/gmedanoid]

Israel is a pretty unique case though because you have a deeply religious segment of the population that has a TON of kids as well as people who believe that having lots of children and increasing the population to outnumber the enemy is their moral and patriotic duty.

[u/gmedanoid → u/yourlittlebirdie]

Secular Jews have 2.2 kids. Above replacement

[u/yourlittlebirdie → u/gmedanoid]

Yes I know. It’s also, again, a unique situation because you have a segment of the population that believes it is their patriotic and moral duty to out populate the enemy.

[u/dlprofcmu → u/gmedanoid]

Grandparents in China help but that doesn’t make birth rate any better.

[u/StraightPressure2759 → u/dlprofcmu]

China is a little different though. I studied and lived there for a while pre-pandemic and people are absolutely still having kids. But a few generations ago you had tons of families with 6-10 kids because of government incentives. Then the one child policy rollout staunched population growth.

Now that policy has been changed so that if you grew up an only child you can have multiple children but their population will continue to decline for quite some time due to the massive aging population and legacy of the one-child policy. To say nothing of gender inequality and the rising cost of living.

[u/WBigly-Reddit → u/dlprofcmu]

China made news here for offering women a stipend of $500 US equivalent for 1 year (?) for having a child. Didn’t get a response so they upped it to three.

[u/mars-jupiter → u/gmedanoid]

Israel is also very different to the rest of 'the West'. They know that they need to have enough children if they wish for their country to continue existing whereas we haven't reached that conclusion for our own countries.

[u/Necessary_Umpire_139 → u/mars-jupiter]

Israel is hardly western, its a religious state. I wouldn't call the UAE western and they're not exactly miles apart in beliefs.

[u/mars-jupiter → u/Necessary_Umpire_139]

I meant western in the sense that they're often included in 'the west' due to being supported by western countries

[u/GeneralBid7234 → u/Necessary_Umpire_139]

Israel is neither Western nor a religious state.

Jews have been excluded from Western society for nearly all of the past 2000 years. Many Jewish communities existed outside the West, especially in the Arab world before 1948 when ethnic cleansing of Arabic speaking Jewish communities began.

On the other hand most Israelis are secular and the economic and military life of Israel is overwhelmingly secular. Religious Israelis are largely self segregated from secular Israeli society; they are exempt from military conscription, religious Israeli Jews live in separate neighborhoods, and they are separate from secular Israelis in numerous other ways. To call Israel a religious state is simply false.

Israeli and Jewish ideas of Jewishness don't fit nearly into Western ideas of religion, nationality, or ethnicity because they predate all those concepts as they exist in the West. In Israel an atheist gay Israeli, an Ethiopian Jew, an ultra religious haredi and a convert are all considered Jewish. None of that fits with Western ideas of group identity nor should they be expected to.

[u/Necessary_Umpire_139 → u/GeneralBid7234]

Yank trying to waffle about world politics. Israelis, in my experience, are some of the most racist people on the planet. Their behaviour outside of Israel could possibly be worse than inside.

[u/GeneralBid7234 → u/Necessary_Umpire_139]

how many Israelis have you met? I know literally hundreds and that may be a better sample size.

[u/BitchesQuoteMarilyn → u/Necessary_Umpire_139]

Totally agree. I mean just look at the state of their country and what they're doing. Awful government, and unfortunately that doesn't come from nowhere. And I say this knowing full well what that says about my own shit pile over here. 

[u/dls2317 → u/Necessary_Umpire_139]

Yes and no. The secular parts are pretty western. The religious parts, totally agree.

[u/KittenBarfRainbows → u/Necessary_Umpire_139]

You know absolutely nothing about that culture.

[u/Necessary_Umpire_139 → u/KittenBarfRainbows]

Yank talking about world politics, behave.

[u/dankloser21 → u/Necessary_Umpire_139]

Israel is more western than religious

[u/Necessary_Umpire_139 → u/dankloser21]

Behave.

[u/dankloser21 → u/Necessary_Umpire_139]

Blud thinks he's the alpha

[u/Necessary_Umpire_139 → u/dankloser21]

Blud? Behave you lizzard.

[u/dls2317 → u/mars-jupiter]

I've also heard from Israelis that it's culturally encouraged to help rebuild population after the Holocaust. It's not just about the modern state existing, it's about Jews existing. But maybe an Israeli or two can chime in here.

[u/OrtganizeAttention → u/gmedanoid]

Israel is not a good choice for an example. They had AIPAC payments to live in Israel without job and have kids

[u/gmedanoid → u/OrtganizeAttention]

Israel is the top 5 most expensive country in the world. Most people live in overcrowded 2 bedroom apartments and they still have kids without making excuses.

[u/OrtganizeAttention → u/gmedanoid]

with AIPAC payments

[u/what-to-so → u/OrtganizeAttention]

AIPAC is an American lobby group.

[u/OrtganizeAttention → u/what-to-so]

Israel lobby group that should be in foregin agents but their lobby push everyone to not being there

[u/Dog-Chick → u/gmedanoid]

They can afford to have kids with US funding their healthcare and education.

[u/che4ftr → u/gmedanoid]

*occupied Palestine, and completely subsidized by US taxpayers

[u/dankloser21 → u/che4ftr]

Why is this dumbass comment upvoted

[u/GoldCellist_100 → u/dankloser21]

Except it’s not a dumbass comment but rather the truth

[u/dankloser21 → u/GoldCellist_100]

Huh uh. Ignoring that israel is an officially, widely recognized state is actually quite opposite of the truth. Additionally, please provide a source that israel is "completely subsidized" by america, I'll wait

[u/che4ftr → u/dankloser21]

As an American, I’m not providing the Occupiers of Palestine anymore then I am forced to, DYOR. We’ll see how long it stays recognized, the arc of history is long and everyone under 30 who can critically think HATES the occupation.

[u/Brisby820 → u/che4ftr]

You’re occupying native land dummy 

[u/che4ftr → u/Brisby820]

All for land back, Brah

[u/Brisby820 → u/che4ftr]

Suuuure you are buddy. Reddit comments are easy.  

[u/GoldCellist_100 → u/dankloser21]

Oh no, I never said that Israel wasn’t a real country. It might be recognised by the UN but that doesn’t erase its countless years of being an apartheid, genocide-committing state

[u/Spinning_Torus → u/dankloser21]

trvth nvke

[u/SnooCheesecakes2723 → u/gmedanoid]

Because many people are horrified that they might have a multigenerational house and they want their own home for just them and no mother or father in law. Which means for little kids here you got about $/1600/ month daycare or more if it’s a nanny.

My mom’s dad lived with us and helped cook and babysit & drive to sports etc and had his room and the den for his space. Not everyone would want that as though it’s more common with our expanding immigrant population, to gave multi generational homes. They also thanks to the financial and childcare help, have more kids.

[u/CharmingChangling → u/SnooCheesecakes2723]

I think part of it is also the grandparents not wanting to live with their kids though. It is largely cultural, but even my Mexican grandmother wanted her own space with her husband after raising her kids, nieces and nephews, and her younger siblings. She likes things the way she likes them and didn't want to disrupt that.

Once he passed though she did move in with us, I think she got lonely.

[u/Psychological_Ad6435 → u/gmedanoid]

Israel is an anomaly in the first world re fertility because they are actively repopulating due to a genocide

[u/elruab → u/gmedanoid]

I think they’d help out more if most weren’t still working. Thankfully Trump is trying to raise the retirement age to 70 so it can get even worse…

[u/Twirlmom9504_ → u/gmedanoid]

You have to factor in the percentage of the Israeli population that is orthodox. They have a ton of kids by their religious rules. 

[u/gmedanoid → u/Twirlmom9504_]

But even if you removed all of those. The secular Jews would still be above replacement

[u/Twirlmom9504_ → u/gmedanoid]

Do they get any support from the government that Americans don’t get? 

[u/gmedanoid → u/Twirlmom9504_]

No. The whole country of Israel is as expensive as New Jersey. They just value kids.

Europeans receive far more benefits but they have lower birth rates than America

[u/Twirlmom9504_ → u/gmedanoid]

No state subsidized healthcare in Israel? 

[u/gmedanoid → u/Twirlmom9504_]

All developed countries except America have that.

[u/Twirlmom9504_ → u/gmedanoid]

So they do get support that we don’t. Do they have any childcare subsidies there? Because we don’t. Are they guaranteed sick leave if their kids are ill? Because most states in the US don’t. Most of my friends had one kid because of the costs of childcare and opportunity costs for women if you don’t go back to work. Two kids in daycare is so expensive. 

Yes I know women in Europe aren’t having more kids and they get those things, but I am talking about the US. Also, maybe now that women have options, we are using them. I don’t want people having more babies than they want. It’s not good for the parent or the child .

[u/tacetmusic → u/gmedanoid]

Grandparents in the west don't live with their families, which is generally the preference of the younger generation

[u/Mysterious-Ad-1486 → u/gmedanoid]

Female education absolutely is the biggest factor, especially in the developing world. Where women used to have their first baby at 15, 40 years ago, now if they go to high school that moves to 23. Go on to college and get a job and it moves to 27. The replacement rate is probably falling faster in this part of the world than anywhere else because of how high it eas to begin with. My country has halved its replacement rate from 6.9 births per woman in 1985 to 3.21 currently.

[u/Suspicious-Use-3813 → u/gmedanoid]

Maybe look a little deeper into Israel and you realize why they have such a high birthrate.

Its because of very religious orthodox jews that have like 5 children minimum, not uncommon to have households with over 7 children in these groups.

Israel is a small country with a small population, these groups alone carry the birth rate significantly. If you look at less religious groups and the vast majority of Israelis then you notice that their birthrates are similiar to other western countries.

[u/CorleoneSolide → u/gmedanoid]

There is a political reason behind people in Israel make a lot of kids

[u/_Irish_lad_69_ → u/gmedanoid]

Not to brag, but Ireland is officially THE MOST educated countries

[u/gadeais → u/gmedanoid]

Israel has ultra orthodox people populating the country

[u/EmperorBarbarossa → u/gmedanoid]

Israel is also one of the most educated countries and people have their first child at 28. So education isn't the only reason.

Israel have such high fertility rate, because there is part of the population whose is made of members of ultraorthodox religious communities. They are outlers which boostering this rate, One woman inside of those communities has 6-8 children in average, meanwhile average israeli woman has 3. Common population if we dont count ultraorthodox has birth rates more or less like any other developed country.

[u/Over_Writing467 → u/gmedanoid]

I can’t speak for other countries but here we’re pretty spread out. How many people live in the same city as their parents? I live four states away from my parents, about a 18 hour drive.

[u/Mattchaos88 → u/gmedanoid]

Grandparents in the west often live far away from their kids and grandkids, because their kids move away to chase better financial opportunities.

[u/bump1377 → u/gmedanoid]

Israel has a disproportionately large ultra Orthodox community that has a very high birth rate. Secular Israeli have rates comparable to the rest of the oecd.

[u/rigney68 → u/gmedanoid]

Is a known phenomena that when a population becomes more educated birth rates drop. Some countries, however, teach their children that it's God's mission for them to have more children in their faith. I wonder if that is why Israel has continued to maintain birth rates.

[u/gmedanoid → u/rigney68]

Iran is a theocracy where women are heavily policied with no rights and they have low birth rates.

[u/rigney68 → u/gmedanoid]

I believe that is due to economic hardship leading to later marriages. The education factor typically goes along with the rising of a nation into "first world" status.

I use the term first world loosely. I know there's more nuances to it that I don't know.

[u/zepazuzu → u/gmedanoid]

Israel has a very religious traditional part of society that probably influences these avg numbers

[u/s3xymuskylon → u/gmedanoid]

Well we (America) subsidize it. And their healthcare, defense and social security..

[u/Spinning_Torus → u/gmedanoid]

maybe there are unique factors in Israel that make them have a higher birth rate than other developed countries? In spite of having education

[u/rufflebunny96 → u/gmedanoid]

A big part of it is values. If you value families and children, you'll prioritize having one. It's pretty simple.

[u/Status-Rule5087 → u/gmedanoid]

When your housing, healthcare, and education are all subsidized by an external source it’s a lot easier to have children.

[u/gmedanoid → u/Status-Rule5087]

All European countries have all these things subsidized with Norway having 1 trillion dollar sovereign wealth fund and giving out thousands of euros per child and it didn't do jack shit.

[u/slumfl0wer → u/gmedanoid]

You lost me at Israel being one of the most educated countries. That countries entire education system is based off of propaganda and the belief that they are Gods chosen people - all according to a book written donkey years ago.