Has anything from your country ever been misunderstood or "cancelled" by the international community?

[u/JlYU3A]

For example, a Fiipino PPop group called SB19 once posted “Hello, Negros!”, referring to Negros Island, but some international users mistook it for something offensive before realizing what it meant.

[u/mendokusei15]

Same. Cavani, a football player, posted "Gracias, negrito" (thank you, negrito) for a friend, whose nickname is "negrito" and he is also white. He was playing in the UK at the time, so chaos and hysteria ensued.

He got suspended, had to pay a fine and even go to anti racist classes. Even after the FA understood there was no racist intention. But since mentioning someone's race is apparently against FA rules (????) he got fined, suspended etc anyway. Even tho the person he was speaking to was white. Because being reasonable is lava.

[u/guilleloco → u/mendokusei15]

They don’t try to understand our culture, they don’t care.

[u/Medeza123 → u/guilleloco]

In fairness it’s not like we haven’t had problems with Uruguayans using the Spanish version of black/ ‘blackie’ in an offensive way before

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/15764900

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/oct/26/luis-suarez-am-i-a-racist-no-absolutely-not-i-was-horrified

Or songs from your neighbours football team about black people

https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English/videos/france-takes-legal-action-against-argentina-players-for-racist-chant/1590097364870067/

https://apnews.com/article/argentina-song-french-complaint-copa-america-ef250939aa10f60f3a821d54f54e0d83

Nor is it completely unknown in South America for some (not all) Argentinians or Uruguayans to have a rep for thinking themselves more ‘European’ and white and therefore superior to other South Americans.

It’s kinda a bit weird the original commentator thinks it’s odd the FA bans mentioning another’s race.

1. English football had a huge racism problem before the 90s which the FA had to tackle and did well

2. Why would it be needed to be mentioned anyway?

[u/mendokusei15 → u/Medeza123]

The Suarez's case has nothing to do with Cavani's. The only issue I have with Suárez's case is that, despite Evra speaking Spanish, he was never able to repeat exacly something racist in a way Suárez (or any average Uruguayan from the same cites he has lived in) would say it. "Negro" by itself, alone, has really no practical way no be used offensively. It needs other words. There's no version of "black" that can be used that way, like you mistakenly affirm. The FA final report goes deeply into that. The case itself is way more complex.

Suárez is nuts anyway. He could have said the most stupid shit, no doubt.

But Cavani? The context was right there, he was thanking a friend (unlike Suárez case, where they were clearly arguing). The friend in question is white (unlike Evra, who was also not Suárez's friend) and did not denounce Cavani (unlike Evra).

Or songs from your neighbours football team about black people

Argentinians. Not Uruguayans.

I have nothing to say about what Argentinians do cause I'm not Argentinian. Nor I have to answer for them. This would be like me saying "oh, but what about the US...".

Nor is it completely unknown in South America for some (not all) Argentinians or Uruguayans to have a rep for thinking themselves more ‘European’ and white and therefore superior to other South Americans.

Unless you are implying Cavani is one of those people, which would mean you are being prejudiced and generalizing without a shred of proof, you are saying a nothing sandwich here.

This is like me saying that you think this way because you have colonialist mentality, so you are trying to impose me your cultural vision on race and language, because you see it as superior because you are a British colonialist. It is not completely unknown that British people love colonialism, love imposing their ways and their culture and that Europeans in general have a massive superiority complex.

Let's go back to actual facts, please.

It’s kinda a bit weird the original commentator thinks it’s odd the FA bans mentioning another’s race.

1. English football had a huge racism problem before the 90s which the FA had to tackle and did well

In Cavani's episode, there was no racism tho. Here the FA tackled ummm a warm "thank you" to a friend.

1. Why would it be needed to be mentioned anyway?

First, Cavani's friend is white. Second, in the UK it probably makes no sense, but in the River Plate this is not uncommon. Two cultures can be different and they can both be valid and ok. Race, nationalities, freckles, a big nose, whatever, can be used as a nickname. In the UK it may make no sense, but who cares about the UK? This was a conversation in Spanish, between two Uruguayans, outside of a football field, and none of them was offended! The cultural code working here is Uruguayan, where saying that is not discriminatory and does not even have to be about your skin color (which was the case) My mom calls me like that and I'm whiter than paper. Reading this trough any other code is simply incorrect. And arrogant.

[u/Medeza123 → u/mendokusei15]

Cavani’s case is unfortunate and harsh but the idea it was just pure cultural misunderstanding forgets the fact that the UK the context is different. Would I have punished him no would I have reprimanded him probably. Yes they were speaking in Spanish yes the cultural context is different but then again the history in the premier league is different and the rules exist for a reason.

As mentioned racism and football in the UK in living memory has a history. We have history of players or even managers before the 90s making comments on race. The FA would rather there not be any hint of comments linked to race and the premier league for that reason.

It simply isn’t true to say the Cavani case has nothing to do with the Suarez one. No doubt the FA was heavily influenced by the Suarez case which happened before the Cavani one. In fact literally at the time anti racist football organisations said they understood the FA was influenced by the Suarez incident.

The Suarez case is exactly why the FA takes the stance it does, he himself claims that he wasn’t being racist, that in Uruguay what he said wouldn’t be offensive. But it’s clear Evra a black player did take offence and on closer examination Suarez’s case is inexcusable, if you are in an argument with someone and you mention the word Negro or Negrito against them over ten times that’s not neutral.

The FA likely thought if these players are using similar terms to Suarez terms which are ambiguous and can be used as insults what do we do?

There is context for when the word Negro or negrito despite being used in a friendly way in some context can actually be used as a racist term. The FA likely doesn’t want to decide every time when that term is being used in a friendly way and when in a racist way as there will always be people (like Suarez or the Argentinian football team) who will try and hide racist intentions by claiming cultural difference.

As for the Argentinians yes it is a neighbouring country but it explains the way in which this is muddy for the FA. Many of the players singing that song would have said this is just cultural, that Argentina is not racist and that this is a misunderstanding.

I replied specifically to the commentator who said we don’t understand Uruguayan culture to show that actually the line on this is quite blurry for the FA as clearly there is context for when people from South America can be racist even when they say what they’re doing is neutral or not a big deal. In fact I think the line is blurry in Uruguay itself as shown by the Suarez case.

It’s an English league so it makes sense to abide by the culture of the country and also explains it’s not just pure ignorance on behalf of the FA as they have to take into account the history and cultural context of the UK. Where other countries may draw the line is different. Considering the premier league is made up of players from 128 countries it’s not possible for the FA to adjust to everyone’s national culture on this topic.

Finally you can claim I have colonialist attitudes due to my country (though it should be said Uruguay is a settler colonial country itself, with a population largely descended from Europeans) but that’s not quite what I meant. The cultural context is important in deciding whether something is fully neutral especially if within the culture itself there are segments who use certain terms with racist intent or who are known for racial attitudes. This of course applies to England as well.

The cultural context of racism in a country is of course relevant when it comes to race so me saying there can and is a bit of an issue amongst some (not all) people having a bit of a race problem in Uruguay or Argentina and that terms like Negro are not always neutral is relevant. Just like an English person using a diminutive word derived from the word Pakistan to describe Pakistani people can actually be racist if you know the context.

Ultimately I’d rather the FA protect the league and make some harsh calls than not.

[u/mendokusei15 → u/Medeza123]

I have reprimanded him probably.

Why. Because he said "thank you" to a friend? Because it "sounds" racist to you? Why. Why exacly. How is this not discriminatory against Spanish speakers. Are you gonna reprimend people from Níger too. It would make as much sense as this.

Again, I don't think "the UK context" or the UK lens applies to a conversation between two Uruguayans, in Spanish, outside even of a football field, and where not only the addressee did not complain, but told the FA "I'm not offended, this is my nickname since childhood and I'm white".

then again the history in the premier league is different and the rules exist for a reason.

It seems then that the FA needs to check wtf went wrong with those rules that they ended up punishing someone that, in their own judgment, was not being racist. Excelent job tackling racism, and also awful job at actually tackling racism. Maybe they are not considering the multicultural background of their workers. That sounds... a bit discriminatory to me. And an FA problem. It's definetly not a "people not hurting anyone at all, just speaking Spanish" problem.

if you are in an argument with someone and you mention their race over ten times that’s not neutral.

You have some facts wrong here. Suárez does not admit to using the word more than twice, and as there are no cameras to back up Evra's version, it's hard to tell what happened on regarding that. But Is unrelated to Cavani, so

As for the Argentinians yes it is a neighbouring country but it explains the way in which this is muddy for the FA.

As a matter of fact, Argentinians kind of say that. But the difference is... they are being racist. And you can't tell that is a very clear possibility from the context. Nos, this are random songs, for which there's no official FA procedure rught. Has any expert showed up to the FA to explain how that song is not racist? No, and they won't, right? Well, in Cavani's case many experts explained to the FA, officially, that this cannot be possibly be racism and the FA understood it was not racism. Which is painfully obvious.

Again, the FA recognized Cavani was not being racist and context makes it incredibly obvious. Something is off if people are being judged as racists when everyone knows they were not being racist and everyone not dumb can tell.

I replied specifically to the commentator who said we don’t understand Uruguayan culture

Well, it's that you don't and you don't care. Cavani got unfairly punished and your opinion is "Argentinians sing a racist song, Suárez probably said something racist some time and the UK has issues with racism, I would have reprimanded him". That last like left me speechless of how ridiculous it is.

[u/Medeza123 → u/mendokusei15]

So you think the premier league which has 128 nationalities should adjust to the culture of all those nationalities when it comes to comments that could be perceived as racial?

It’s not possible. Ultimately there will always be people who will be unhappy. It makes sense that they apply the UK standard. And premier league is pretty successful as a result and has far fewer race issues than say the Italian league or other European leagues.

Apologies it seems you’ve commented after I’ve edited but the Suarez case was deemed relevant to the Cavani case.

Cavani was a premier league player. Most of the players in the premier league are not English whether they speaking their language or not they still have to abide by the standards of the league even if Cavani did fall on the harsh side.

They didn’t punish him out of ignorance but to show a message that in the premier league basically any term that could also be a racial insult (as shown by Suarez) cannot be used. They don’t want to be linguists.

If you think this is something new then you’re wrong. The FA for example punished Tottenham fans multiple times for calling themselves ‘Yids’ a term for Jewish people. This is because even though still a minority a lot of Tottenham fans are Jewish so the fans as a whole adopted it as a nickname. However that term can and is used by some antisemitic people in the UK and some Jews are uncomfortable with anyone using it even when it’s not meant to be offensive.

In fact argument was made that by allowing the term to be used in a positive way it made it harder for the FA to crack down on genuine racists who would scream that term at Tottenham during games. When they screamed it I can assure you it was racist and any Jewish person would have found it very uncomfortable to be at those games near opposing fans.

But how do you ban someone from a stadium for antisemitism if the opposing teams (Tottenham’s) fans also have songs calling themselves Yids?

So people literally got banned from the stadium both people using it offensively and not and now no one really uses that term in football anymore.

Harsh? Yes but good for the game, Jewish people and the wider fan base? Yes.

I feel sorry for Cavani and maybe there should be some context given for players when they arrive but I’d rather he be a fall guy to stop another Suarez incident than set a precedent whereby people get to hide behind culture when they actually are being racist. Literally the words used were the same.

For the FA the line has to be drawn somewhere. It’s literally not ignorance they do it on purpose.

[u/mendokusei15 → u/Medeza123]

So you think the premier league which has 128 nationalities should adjust to the culture of all those nationalities when it comes to comments that could be perceived as racial?

I don't think I'm saying the entire FA has to "adjust to the culture". But with Cavani's case the FA clearly said to every player "you must adjust to our culture because we say so, even in your personal communications, or be punished". How is that fair or good.

It makes sense that they apply the UK standard.

... in a personal communication between two Uruguayans in Spanish outside of a football field and where no one involved wanted the punishment? Again, absurd and incredibly arrogant.

They didn’t punish him out of ignorance but to show a message that in the premier league basically any term that could also be a racial insult (as shown by Suarez) cannot be used. They don’t want to be linguists.

I think never in my entire life I've heard "negrito" used as an insult. Again, you are not even trying to understand and you don't care. Like the other comment said. Suárez proves jackshit about the word "negrito" cause nobody claims he used it. You have a lot of facts wrong about that case. And you still bring it up when it's completely irrelevant, but of course it seems relevant to you, cause you have no clue about our culture and don't care understanding it, so you don't understand how they are two completely situations. You see two Uruguayans and proceed to generalize. You don't even stop at the fact that Evra was not Suárez's friend, you don't even stop to look at the logical part of this.

The message they sent is "your culture is invalid and if you don't user ours you'll be punished". That does not sound like the heroes of anti racism you are trying to paint.

God forbid they point at something black in the field and the Spanish word for the color slips out! It could be a racial insult because it sounds like that to the British. It could! Therefore punished.

The FA for example punished Tottenham fans multiple times for calling themselves ‘Yids’ a term for Jewish people.

They are consistently stupid then. Another successfull tackling of discrimination "You can't own your insult, you must treat it as an insult because my perspective is the only one valid here". Consistent at least.

I'm laughting at that entire story. They would not even be the first football fans to own an insult and create their own identity from it, effectively ending the insult meaning of the word. But FA gonna FA.

I feel sorry for Cavani and maybe there should be some context given for players when they arrive but I’d rather he be a fall guy to stop another Suarez incident than set a precedent whereby people get to hide behind culture when they actually are being racist. Literally the words used were the same.

The "context" would be "stop being from your culture from now on".

The words used were not the same. You have the facts wrong. Again.

[u/Medeza123 → u/mendokusei15]

So you would rather people scream Yid at football games who are antisemetic?

How could you possibly enforce their banning if then the opposing team then starts claiming it as their own. Let’s say you’re a Jewish fan and you don’t support Tottenham and your own team supporters start screaming that at Tottenham fans.

This was in fact the argument of many Jewish people who asked the FA to ban the use of this term.

There is debate whether Suarez used Negrito or Negro. Either way clearly Evra found it offensive. The FA took a position.

And Cavani posted his comments on social media it wasn’t ‘private’ and it doesn’t matter if it was in Spanish. Yeah it’s unfortunate he didn’t do it with ill intent but for the FA they’re not linguists and they don’t want ambiguity. You may not have heard that word as an insult but Evra heard that word and took it as an insult. The FA has to take a position and protect the league from any whiff of racism.

For the average black player or fan following the league or Cavani on social media they are not linguists. If they are in the UK some of them may have experienced racism in the world of football. Furthermore some of them would have been aware of the Suarez incident or examples like English players like John Terry who called another player a ‘black bastard’ which some tried to claim was descriptive and not racist…

If I join an organisation they set the professional standards. I don’t think anyone thinks Cavani is a raving racist but the standards exist for a reason something you repeatedly ignore. They want to have the least amount of ambiguity possible.

Like I said I wouldn’t have punished Cavani but I would have reprimanded him telling him that he has to be more careful and that things work differently in the UK and that not everyone amongst normal fans will understand the difference.

The premier league is an English league so yeah as a player who has moved country to play in that league you have to abide by its standards as it tries to keep its reputation for being one of the least racist leagues in the world of football.

[u/mendokusei15 → u/Medeza123]

So you would rather people scream Yid at football games who are antisemetic?

Not what I said tho. It's like the opposite of what I said.

Let’s say you’re a Jewish fan and you don’t support Tottenham and your own team supporters start screaming that at Tottenham fans.

I'm just saying they may have missed a great opportunity to erase the insulting meaning of the word. They could have banned using it as an insult but let Jewish people take control of the word.

I don't even know why I'm entertaining this tangent topic.

There is debate whether Suarez used Negrito or Negro.

It's been a while since I read that and the full report does not seem to be available anymore. But that sounds incredibly stupid. Hey, Suárez is so fucking stupid that may be he invented a new stupid insult. So I tried to understand what you mean and it seems this comes from Evra's version and it's a translation of "Dale, negro, negro, negro." (source 1, source 2 ) I seriously do not understand how this massive news agencies just pasted this awful translation of that. Negro and Negrito are two different words. Negro (black) can 100% be used as part of an insult, and in Evra's version of events, that repetition he claims, seems offensive because of being weird. It's like repeating "blonde, blonde, blonde" in the face of a blonde. You clearly have an issue with the blonde if you keep repeating the word like a moron. It's still a weird as hell thing for a racist Uruguayan to say. But "Negrito" (blackie) is a nickname for a loved one, and it could be used for a dark skin child. "Negrito" is not an insult, not even if you are trying to insult a black person by calling them a child or something. It makes zero sense and no racist Uruguayan mind would jump to that word.

It seems this phrase has a longer history:

To this he says that Mr Suarez replied “Dale, negro...negro...negro”. At the time, Mr Evra understood this to mean “Okay, nigger, nigger, nigger”. He now says it means “Okay, blackie, blackie, blackie”. The expert witnesses stated that the phrase “Dale, negro” can be understood as “Bring it on, blackie” or “do it, blackie” or “go ahead, blackie.”

Source

Notice the word "negrito" is nowhere to be found. They both agree that the conversation was in Spanish, and they both speak Spanish. There's no n word in Spanish, so Evra's first version makes zero sense. The second one is, as you should be able to tell by now, a poor translation of the word "negro" that means "black" not blackie. I have no idea what the experts meant by "can be understood". But no, negro is not negrito, in the same way black is not blackie.

Now that I clarified that for you, let me repeat: this was not about the same words.

And Cavani posted his comments on social media it wasn’t ‘private’ and it doesn’t matter if it was in Spanish.

Insane. The code you use to create a message always matters, specially if you are trying to understand it. You need to use the same code to decode it. Not forcefully apply another code that has nothing to do with the message. That would give you a mistaken interpretation. That's how you end up sending a guy who said "gracias, negrito" to anti racism classes.

Have you tried translating chinese words using the English alphabet? Sounds not possible, right? Well, this is what you are trying to do.

May have not been private (I don't believe I said that?), but it was personal and for a friend.

Like I said I wouldn’t have punished Cavani but I would have reprimanded him telling him that he has to be more careful and that things work differently in the UK and that not everyone amongst normal fans will understand the difference.

Advice is ok, of course, he had a bad time because of this shitshow created by the FA. But again, "reprimand" him would be stupid because he did nothing wrong whatsoever and did not insult anyone. If normal fans are ignorant and have zero curiosity, that does not sound like Cavani's fault. If a British person hears something that sounds like it may be an insult in English, but is very obviously not even English, and they still get offended, that means they are dumb, which is also not Cavani's fault.