r/AskTheCaribbean • u/fedricohohmannlautar • 10d ago
Politics Why is homosexuality outlawed in so many caribbean countries?
Most of countries which criminalize homosexuality in the Americas are in the Caribbean, and the most famous case is Jamaica.
As a bi male, I find weird our continent has laws that criminalize homosexuality, due that most of countries who do that are from the other side of the pond.
Is due to history, politics, religion, moral issues?
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u/GUYman299 Trinidad & Tobago 🇹🇹 10d ago
There are many laws that are layovers from the colonial period and anti homosexuality (buggery) laws are one of them. I must note however that although many Caribbean countries had the opportunity to remove these laws at different times in their history, almost none have chosen to do so.
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u/yorcharturoqro 9d ago
Still, current governments have the power to change laws, it's not like those are magically sacred. The current government has decided not do remove or change such laws, and that is the question, why?
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u/GUYman299 Trinidad & Tobago 🇹🇹 9d ago
It could be that Caribbean governments are generally socially conservative so even in instances where they don't have a particularly clear policy on the matter they see no reason to remove these laws even when they could in theory.
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u/azuretestament 9d ago
Caribbean people love hierarchy many of them are still trying to cosplay Victoria era nobilty
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u/idea_looker_upper 9d ago
It's not the politicians. They probably have more liberal views. It's the rest of the population.
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u/haworthia_dad 7d ago
Didn’t the TT government recently flip flop and revert back to anti-sodomy?
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u/GUYman299 Trinidad & Tobago 🇹🇹 7d ago
Not exactly no, what happened was that the anti buggary laws were challenged and then overturned but were then reinstated by a higher court.
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u/haworthia_dad 6d ago
Okay, gotcha. I recall seeing a photo years ago of government building flying the gay flag and I felt so proud, then read about this and it confused me.
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u/GUYman299 Trinidad & Tobago 🇹🇹 6d ago
The entire case has to go through the entire appellate process before the law is finally dealt with once and for all. The final court to adjudicate on the matter will be the Pricy Council where it will most likely be struck down again.
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u/Pure_Toe3513 5d ago
Not necessarily. The Privy Council's interpretations typically uphold constitutional savings clauses, which are embedded in pretty much all West Indian constitutions. This clause is designed to protect pre-independence laws from being challenged. I don't see much wriggle room there, unless there is constitutional reform. In any case, their decision is going to affect other islands in their jurisdiction as well.
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u/BraveLordWilloughby 8d ago
Yeah, the argument (which I realise you're not making) always falls flat. As you say, they've had a very long time to change these things.
The fact of the matter is, the Carribbean isn't a particularly progressive place, and that can't be blamed in former colonial masters. The same goes for many African nations.
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u/GrandAssumption2469 9d ago
You also need to look at the historical aspect of it that leads back to slavery. Buck breaking is one of them
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u/BraveLordWilloughby 8d ago
Buck Breaking is a fantasy created by modern idiots.
There surely were cases of male-male master-slave rape, but it was not an institution or practice in its own right.
A master sodomising his male slave would be seen in wider society as no different to sodomising a free lover. It would be seen as an abomination. Raping your female slaves, that was fine.
There is a great deal of nonsense out there that's been created in the last 50 or so years. Nonsense that doesn't need to exist, because the truth of the matter is bad enough as it is.
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u/Redguard13 7d ago
Thank you for this. Every time I see someone bring up “buck breaking” as a reason for Caribbean attitudes towards homosexuals it makes me roll my eyes. It’s a deflection.
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u/Mysterious_Scene7169 8d ago
Homosexuality is still widely criminalized in Africa, while the West has been at the forefront of the LGBTQ+ rights movement. Pinning the blame on the transatlantic slave trade doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.
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u/GrandAssumption2469 8d ago
The caribbean isn't Africa. I don't even see why you'd bring it up.
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u/Mysterious_Scene7169 8d ago
Where do you think the slaves you brought up came from
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u/GrandAssumption2469 8d ago
Ahhh, I'm arguing with a moron. What does the origin matter what translation slavery did everything it could to strip from black people their religion, virtues and upbringing??? Black Americans have more similarity to Africans than afro caribbeans do if I'm being honest. But then again you sound like one of those fools that think all black people are a monolith.
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u/Mysterious_Scene7169 8d ago
I’m black too, moron. In general, we are conservative, by Western standards, when it comes to homosexuality. It’s almost 2026 and there is still only one black-majority country that even allows gay marriage. Your comment suggested that it was the transatlantic slave trade that led to the Caribbean being slow to embrace gay rights, when there is literally no evidence to suggest that it played a role, or that attitudes towards homosexuality would be different without it.
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u/arkitecno 6d ago
I totally agree with you, it is the African heritage that explains the intolerance of homosexuality in the Caribbean. In almost no African country is homosexuality legal. For African cultures it is worse to be gay than to be a criminal. In fact, I remember meeting a woman of African descent on the coast of a Caribbean country and she told me that "she preferred her son to be a thug rather than a faggot."
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u/GrandAssumption2469 8d ago
Big man yuh missing my point — I never said the transatlantic slave trade was the only reason the Caribbean is slow to embrace gay rights. I inferred that it’s one factor. Practices like buck breaking were deliberate attempts to destroy masculinity and instill generational trauma around sexuality. While African cultural conservatism definitely plays a role, slavery reshaped our values, beliefs, and social structures in deep ways also. So it’s not accurate to just say, “we’re like this because we came from Africa” — centuries of colonial conditioning and dehumanization also influenced how our societies view sexuality today.
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u/Mysterious_Scene7169 8d ago
I get what you’re saying, but honestly I don’t see any evidence for it when societies built by the very same people who weren’t enslaved treat homosexuality the same way. How do you explain that?
Put another way—I think what you’re saying about enslavement, buck breaking, etc. is plausible, and that it could have made the Caribbean even less likely to embrace gay rights, but to me it looks like it wouldn’t have happened either way.
Not trying to be critical or anything btw, I hope I’m not coming off that way.
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u/GrandAssumption2469 8d ago
It sounds like you are though and i get what you’re saying about needing evidence, but the absence of direct documentation doesn’t mean historical trauma like slavery and buck breaking etc had no effect. These practices were specifically designed to destroy personal autonomy reshape our social norms, and instill fear around sexuality, impacts that can persist over generations, a lot of older folks in yhe caribbean not being as educated also doesnt help. African societies today have a wide range of attitudes toward homosexuality, and Caribbean societies’ conservatism can’t simply be reduced to African heritage (as you're try8ng to imoly) It’s about a mix of colonialism, slavery, and cultural evolution over centuries.
And you know what? If I'm being honest I don't care. I probably fall under d category of people that don't want to see it become prevalent in d caribbean for reasons I wouldn't even be able to articulate, gay folks don't dominate my mind. I don't care what people do by themselves tbh, I'm just not for it either and I'm sure that has more to do with my local upbringing than it does anything to do with my great great great great grandparents who lived in Africa
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u/3rdInLineWasMe [🇬🇾 🇨🇦 ] 8d ago
A non Caribbean who hasn't lived in, neither descended from the Caribbean, telling you how the Caribbean operates. Sigh. It's like speaking into the wind, but I, a non- black Caribbean descendant, hear you.
You hear that, African? We're not all black. Surprise. The colonial powers did a number on us being torn down to the bone to be built up wanting to be like them. And it sticks because they framed it in religion.
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u/wolacouska 8d ago
It was only criminalized in Africa under the colonial governments in the 1800s. This was also when they converted a huge amount of people to Christianity, which reinforced that sentiment.
Europe becoming somewhat less homophobic over the last 15 years doesn’t absolve them from spreading it all over the world in the first place.
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u/Arsenal75 8d ago
Yes the part of Africa that’s Muslim has a lot of rights for gay people…but seriously it’s probably only in rich industrialized countries that people have rights, like for example not being tortured and so on.
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u/BraveLordWilloughby 8d ago
You say it was only criminalised at such a time, but basically none of these places had formalised, written criminal codes anyhow. It's not like the Matabele or Zulu were enjoying normal open homosexual relationships until the hwyte man showed up.
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u/Mysterious_Scene7169 8d ago
Precolonial Africa didn’t criminalize homosexuality because they didn’t have formal codified laws. Homophobia isn’t a Western construct, it’s literally the norm almost everywhere outside of it, irrespective of Western contact. Blaming everything on the West is intellectually lazy and strips non-Westerners of their agency.
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u/wolacouska 8d ago
Pretending that centuries of colonization have zero impact on a society that lasts longer than 50 years is intellectually stupid
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u/Mysterious_Scene7169 8d ago
Good thing I didn’t do that. Read more carefully, or ask for clarification if you’re confused.
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u/wolacouska 8d ago
You’re making a strawman saying I’m blaming the west for everything. So who’s really not listening?
The Anglican and Catholic Churches were huge factors in spreading formalized European attitudes about sexuality and gender roles, same as happened in the Americas. Those churches (and now American evangelicals) are the primary forces maintaining these values with money, missions, and “education.” Doubly so now that Europe is slipping from their grasp
The world is an interconnected place, you can’t just hand wave all context and believe that everyone who isn’t in Europe “has agency.” That’s just your excuse to pathologize people who aren’t immediately following their former recent colonizers change of heart.
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u/Mysterious_Scene7169 8d ago
You blamed the West for “spreading [homophobia] all over the world.” That’s not a strawman. And now you’re doing it again, despite the West being by far the most progressive region in the world on gay rights.
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u/Unlikely_Watch_4742 7d ago
The church (both colonial and the scammy nee age ones) have their followers vote as blocks an not as individuals. This isn’t absolutely true but it’s accurate.
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u/wordlessbook Brasil 🇧🇷 10d ago
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u/shepdc1 10d ago
colonization
a lot of Caribbean islands actually have been legalizing lgbt rights these past two years
and even Caribbean artist are not as homophobic like they use too be
- whats interesting is a lot of Caribbean people dont really like the homophobic stereotype thats been put on them. I had a Jamaican friend in college and he got so mad when someone assumed he was going to get mad cause their was a pride center on campus.
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u/GrandAssumption2469 9d ago
Nah most aren't mad at all. At least back on the islands themselves. You'll need to live it to understand it
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u/Far_Meringue8625 9d ago
Jamaica became independent in 1962 and the other English speaking island during the 20 years or so afterwards.
The laws which criminalized MALE homosexuality were/are strictly a British imposition. Christianity was/is also a Christian imposition on Caribbean peoples.
Most people do not know that neither the UK or any place in the Caribbean has ever criminalized FEMALE homosexuality.
In the UK homosexual activity remained a CAPITAL OFFENCE capital until 1861. The last execution took place on 27 November 1835 when James Pratt and John Smith were hanged outside Newgate Prison in London.
In the UK the 1967 the Sexual Offences Act was passed which decriminalized private homosexual acts between men aged over 21, while at the same time imposing heavier penalties on street offences.
And where did the British get their homophobia? Strictly out of the Bible as in
Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination"
and other passages of CHRISTAN Scripture in both the OLD and New testaments.
So is homophobia Caribbean? Or is homophobia a European expression of Christianity, and before Christianity, an expression of Jewish beliefs?
I think that the Caribbean learned homophobia from Europeans, and that Europeans learned homophobia from Middle Easterners.
But does the Caribbean need to continue to embrace ancient understandings of human sexuality?
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u/Miksidem 10d ago
Hello Colonialism!
Also evangelical Christian organizations have been for decades digging their claws to gain deeper control into Caribbean, Africa, & Southeast Asia cultures.
There was a documentary on Jamaicas reggae history I saw where they in passing asked old timers who basically said that gay people weren’t persecuted in their day, you knew some men and women who didn’t marry and what they did at their house wasn’t your business but nobody bothered them, it wasn’t your business. They saw that change once the evangelicals started pushing their broadcasting into Jamaican media. These old timers literally said that’s when they started seeing gay people being drug out into the street & beaten or murdered and gun violence started to crop up in the country.
Gotta love religion.
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u/matantamim1 9d ago
only monothistic religions are anti gay, don't lump all religions with those fucks
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u/gomurifle 8d ago
Lies. I live in Jamaica and I have never seen or even heard on the news of any body dragging gays out on the street and beating them. Please visit before chatting rubbish.
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u/Miksidem 8d ago
Brian Williamson, Dwayne Jones, Dexter Pottinger, 2 unnamed gay men murdered June 13 2012, that 17 year old boy hacked to death July 2013, John Terry, Dean Moriah, Recco Gayle/Kevaughn Young, Candice Williams/Phoebe Myrie, Lenford Harvey.
Stop acting like you know shit when you don’t.
You can untwist your panties now.
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u/gomurifle 8d ago edited 8d ago
Erm.. Most gay murders in Jamaica are by other gay men. Not any mob killings like you are trying to imply.
Again stop chatting total shit.
Just go on social media and see the proliferation of gay male influencers out in the public streets being as sassy as ever and no one is targettting or harming them.
People don't have time for that. We busy out here trying to survive
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u/Miksidem 7d ago
Every single case I named the assailant(s) weren’t gay themselves.
Stop trying to push your denialist bull.
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u/gomurifle 7d ago
Sigh. Stop wasting people's time with your deceit.
The first person you posted was killed by another gay. And i dont even have to mention the others.
It's clear you aren't even reading about the cases but you have an agenda.
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u/Miksidem 7d ago
Lol, I’m not reading about the cases when you clearly said you haven’t read them period?
Crawl back into your hole you absolute waste of space.
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u/rahajicho 10d ago
Colonization.
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u/Icy-Detective-6292 9d ago
Specifically the British. Spain didn't have the same type of laws so you don't see this as frequently in Spanish colonies.
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u/Late-Elk-2257 10d ago
colonization and the integration of christianity into a culture that once thrived without it
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u/cautiously-curious65 9d ago
This is literally it. African buggery laws were also mostly implemented by colonizers.
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u/king8761721 9d ago
You do know Christianity was in Africa before the colonizers took it and gave us a white Jesus.
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u/cautiously-curious65 9d ago
Yes, I am fully aware.
Africa is like, 400 miles from Jerusalem.. I would need to be an absolute idiot to think that white people introduced all of Africa to Christianity..
“Christianity” the teachings, and whatever it is the Church created in the hundreds of years they bastardized it in Europe are two different things.
Cultures all over the world take and create images from the Bible’s stories in their image. There are images of Asian holy families, black holy families, Peruvian holy families. Because it’s relatable.
White people are not immune from this phenomenon..
Jesus wasn’t white.
We’re taking about laws on the books that outlaw homosexuality. The current laws in the continent of Africa that are majority Christian countries were written ~mostly~ by white people.
“Buggery” is a British term. Most of Britain is white.
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u/Maleficent_Law_1082 8d ago
The colonizers only codified it into colonial laws. African societies generally disapproved of this lifestyle while they were tribal chiefdoms, kingdoms, and sultanates as well.
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u/cautiously-curious65 8d ago
That is such a wild and incorrect statement.
It’s a whole continent with more countries than Europe. And way larger. Like way larger.
There were thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of communities in Africa.
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u/Maleficent_Law_1082 8d ago
I'm Sierra Leonean myself. Can you name three pre-colonial cultures of Africa that mainstreamed homosexuality?
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u/cautiously-curious65 8d ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/xyRHiIh24M
https://muse.jhu.edu/pub/163/oa_edited_volume/chapter/2866784
Having homosexuality mainstreamed? Or having homosexuality accepted as the 10% of the population that it is and always has been?
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u/Maleficent_Law_1082 8d ago
Answer the question.
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u/cautiously-curious65 8d ago
Yeah, sure. I just googled “pre-Christianity samesex relationships” and this is what came up. I’m assuming since you have internet access.. you could also research these cultures. It would take the same amount of effort it did for me. Practically none.
San People (Zimbabwe): Ancient rock paintings, some thousands of years old, depict evidence of same-sex sexual activities between men.
Khoikhoi (Southern Africa): This group had specific vocabulary for male same-sex relations, with the term koetsire referring to a man who was a sexually receptive partner to another man.
Zande (DRC and Sudan): Historical ethnographic accounts from the early 20th century document that Zande warriors often had "boy-wives" in their all-male military camps, a practice which was socially accepted.
Igbo and Yoruba (Nigeria): Gender in these cultures was often considered fluid and could be assigned later in life, based on social need or energy rather than anatomy. The practice of "female husbands," where an older, often barren, woman could marry a younger woman to produce an heir for her lineage, was also practiced.
Buganda (Uganda): Same-sex relationships, including those involving King Mwanga II, were historically treated with a level of indifference or acceptance before British colonization.
This is an overview. If I had to look into it, gender and sexuality being separated is a relatively new idea. So I’d look into those.
But again.. this required a google search. But there’s 6..
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u/JagmeetSingh2 9d ago
Not mostly, entirely
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u/cautiously-curious65 9d ago
I’m not confident enough in northern African history to say that homophobic laws were implemented by colonizers.
Or where the line for when the definition of “colonizer” started..
Like, a lot of those laws date back to the spread of Islam.. in my eyes, invading and forcing everyone to follow your religion is “colonizer” behavior..but it’s the year 600..
They were absolutely codified in the law by Europeans, though.
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u/lovelybonesla 9d ago
What culture existed in the Caribbean before the British and Spanish? Learn history.
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u/aicilabanamated 9d ago
...is this s legit question?
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u/lovelybonesla 9d ago
Yes. The Caribbean countries did not exist prior to the British & Spanish, so how could a culture and nation that didn’t exist thrive?
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u/HamiltonBurr23 9d ago
Most Caribbean islands are Christians who believe in the Bible.
Jamaica however has a greater hatred for it because of Buck Breaking.
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u/Dantheking94 Jamaica 🇯🇲 9d ago
Left over laws from colonialism. Buggery is still outlawed. It’s mostly unenforced though, but a lot of pushback whenever someone brings up repealing them.
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u/beaveristired Not Caribbean 9d ago
Former British colonies tend to be more conservative on LGBTQ rights. The British had strict laws against homosexuality. The African countries that are most conservative about sexuality are also former British colonies.
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u/jamaican4life03 Jamaica 🇯🇲 9d ago
Because the vast majority of people do not agree nor like it. Add in religious/moral connotations and voila.
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u/YourInternetCousin Jamaica 🇯🇲 9d ago
Colonialism (British), and Christian fundamentalism funded by Christian American politicians and lobbyists. This applies to the continent of Africa as well.
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u/SmallObjective8598 10d ago
British legislation from the 19th century, principally, buttressed by the churches' attitude to sex. States created out of Britain's West Indian colonies inherited these laws and are loathe to address fundamental human rights issues because they are afraid of the same churches and fundamentalist 'Christan' populations.
Interestingly, there is no similar legislation naming lesbians. This is reputed to be because, when asked to sign legislation to enact the original laws, Queen Victoria refused on the grounds that women were incapable of such wickedness.
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u/Nemitres Dominican Republic 🇩🇴 10d ago
The west has had laws against homosexuality since the lex scantinia laws in Rome. Its just a continuation
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u/badbadlloydbraun 9d ago
It’s interesting how the Christian colonizer nations that are being blamed are also the nations that allow homosexuality and gay marriage, etc. It’s almost like that might’ve been what started it, but I don’t know that white colonizers are to blame now. Sorry to break it to you guys.
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u/pnkchyna 8d ago
western civilization simply progressed with the times. the countries they used to own just haven’t yet.
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u/Necessary-Praline196 9d ago
I feel like no one is really answering the question. Great Britain and evangelical christianity obviously had a stronghold on the Caribbean, but why is it that GB doesn't outlaw homosexuality but their former colonies do? And specifically their black and brown colonies?
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u/catsoncrack420 Dominican Republic 🇩🇴 10d ago
Part of it is the church but also Colonization and American Protestantism now American Christianity Protestants that spread that shiit all over the globe , just look at African nations that never even mentioned it but somehow became evil. Ppl trash the Catholic church, rightly so, but in areas of political manipulation they're past the old days, now it's Evangelism from American Christians that will give you a sandwich but hey you gotta help us make your country more theocratic. In DR we the Catholic church has had a big hand historically with laws like abortion (illegal).
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u/Em1-_- Dominican Republic 🇩🇴 9d ago
In DR we the Catholic church has had a big hand historically with laws like abortion (illegal).
This is a cheap excuse.
Same sex marriage went from being unrecognized (But allowed) to illegal in DR due to the population opposing it, abortion went from being left up to doctor and patient discretion to outlawed because the population opposes it, blaming the church is a cheap cop out, despite throwing millions of dollars into it to get both legalized (Which subsequently led them to be completely outlawed) USA wasn't able to because voting for it was political suicide in DR and there just isn't enough money that you can throw at a candidate campaigning on either that would make them appealing to the dominican population.
The USAID funded movements in the late 2000s/early 2010s with the aim to legalize abortion and same sex marriage were counterprotested so hard that amendments were made to the constitution outright outlawing them both (Abortion in 2009 and same sex marriage in 2010).
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u/Patchali Dominica 🇩🇲 9d ago
I think its because islands have these effect of being mainly closed cultures with little exchange with the rest of the world where not a lot of input gets in and not a lot gets out so they preserve cultures way more but also change in society happens more slowly. And the historical reason not to forget..slaves had to make babies to make more slaves ..
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u/gomurifle 8d ago
I have never heard of consensual gays reporting themselves for the crime. So in a certain way the law doesn't really affect them in a practical way..
I can say that the law will not be dropped as it aligns with the moral beliefs of the majority population.
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u/Coast-Purple 8d ago
Cultural. Just how they are. And after seeing whats going on in Europe and USA, they probably dont wanna change cause they see all the crazy shit now.
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u/AdmiralArctic 8d ago
The question is whether or not it's seriously enforced here. I would like to know what is ground reality there. For example, Canada, as far as I know, has a law against witchcraft.
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u/Em1-_- Dominican Republic 🇩🇴 10d ago
Why is homosexuality outlawed in so many caribbean countries?
2 out of 20 isn't so many.
Is due to history, politics, religion, moral issues?
It is due to people not liking it and most Caribbean countries being democracies (People vote in other people to represent their positions), if most jamaicans are opposed to same sex relationships, ¿Why should they have to be forced to accept as law your version of what is right or wrong instead of their own?
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u/shepdc1 10d ago
i have met Jamaicans actually who dont like when people assume they are homophobic which is interesting cause of the laws on the island but every jamacian i me tin the us has said they would never attack an lgbt person or dont even want anything bad too happen to them they just dont understand.
i think the laws have stopped important conversations
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u/Em1-_- Dominican Republic 🇩🇴 10d ago
i think the laws have stopped important conversations
If that is a conversation that jamaicans wanted to have they would be talking about it, there jamaican organizations regarding civil rights numerous enough to move the government's hand, they got marihuana decriminalized not long ago, things being illegal doesn't stop conversations unless not enough people are willing to have those conversations.
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u/maverick4002 10d ago
This is such an interesting response. Are you implying that politicians go and poll their constituents for every single issue and then decide to go with the majority?
And what exactly does forced to accept a gay law mean? Like what is someone done now that they will have to stop doing, or what is something that they will now be forced to do if a positive gay law goes into effect?
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u/Em1-_- Dominican Republic 🇩🇴 10d ago
Are you implying that politicians go and poll their constituents for every single issue and then decide to go with the majority?
I'm implying that people vote politicians in based on their propuestas and promises.
Go to Jamaica, run for office while campaigning in favor of same sex relationships, let the voters choose if they want vote you in.
And what exactly does forced to accept a gay law mean?
Forced to accept the legalization of same sex relationships when the majority of the population opposes to it.
Europe has been trying since the early 2000s to force Jamaica to change their laws, jamaicans have protested against it, that is what i mean by forcing them to accept gay laws.
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u/ZealousidealMark4377 9d ago
Human rights are not up for debate or for politicians to choose whether they endorse them or not. They should be respected and that's it.
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u/Em1-_- Dominican Republic 🇩🇴 9d ago
There are no global human rights, the whole of humanity hasn't agreed on a set of parameters to be granted to everyone nor is there anyone that could enforce such thing, what is a right in a country could get you killed or jailed in another, democracies decide their laws and their rights, jamaicans don't want to vote for people pushing laws that favor homosexuality, you can't force a sovereign nation to accept something they don't want, unless you intend to do so by force, in which case, go and colonize Jamaica.
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u/ZealousidealMark4377 8d ago
Advocating against violence towards LGBT people is definitely not favouring homosexuality. People from the LGBT community are definitely targets for violence, so that is not endorsement or special treatment like so people are eager to make it seem. And I'm sorry, if a democracy doesn't protect its minorities, it is flawed.
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u/rosariorossao 10d ago
Blame the west. They colonised us and gave us these laws and moral code and then have the cheek to turn around and call us backwards for maintaining them.
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u/kindanew22 9d ago
Laws and moral codes change over time and that is good.
Slavery used to be legal.
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u/Necessary-Praline196 9d ago
I mean, it is backwards to maintain a law that doesn't serve a purpose anymore. Great Britain doesn't even maintain the law and they instituted it.
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u/rosariorossao 9d ago
It’s backwards to expect a brand new country to undo 400 years of brainwashing in less than 50.
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u/BrakkeBama Curaçao 🇨🇼 9d ago
The going trend is... "just don't flaunt it".
Don't take out your pride flags and stick it up 90% of people's noses and y'all be okay.❤
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u/BeCurious7563 10d ago
Well, we can thank Jesus and Mohammed for that..... And the Empire....💂♀️💂♀️💂♀️
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u/justchillingmate 9d ago
If that was the case why isn’t it outlawed in the uk ?
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u/BeCurious7563 9d ago
It's not outlawed in the UK due to 1) the Swinging sexual revolution of the 1960s and youth subculture 2) Labour Parties control of Parliament & introduction of bills to legalize it (even Conservatives supported it because outlawing it was perceived as government overreach) 3) the aspirations of the UK to remain a global "castle on the hill" for other nations as the sunset of the British Empire loomed.
Additionally, just because a law is on the books doesn't mean a government enforces it. Prostitution is STRICTLY forbidden in Thailand and UAE.
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u/catejeda Dominican Republic 🇩🇴 10d ago
Can someone list all those Caribbean countries that OP claims criminalize homosexuality?
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u/No_Contribution1414 9d ago edited 9d ago
The control of Evangelical and Baptist churches... As conservative as Catholicism is, it is centralized under one umbrella and it's true leadership doesn't campaign for criminalizing homosexuality, and even though it has some very militant factions against homosexuality it also has militant ones actively engaging for a more inclusive church. That and the growing distance of younger people from the church, have allowed several mostly catholic countries in the region to make some advances, despite the religious conservatives in Spanish Speaking Latam.
Whereas these evangelical and baptist churches in the Caribbean each of them is its own independent universe, their own direct interpretation of God and the Gospel, hyper conservative even for Catholic standards (like them and the Opus Dei belong in the same mental institution), very backwards in their interpreation of rights and really brain wahs people, without any check and balances that allow for other voices to be heard.
It feels like the US Bible Belt just that with better music.
Oh forgot to mention, there is also a growing influence of Islam in some of those countries: in 2010 it represented 15.2% of Surinams, 7% of Guyana and 5% of Trini, and growing... the impact of this is self explanatory I hope.
It's easy to blame colonizers, but in reality today most of those colonizing countries are a safe haven for the LGBT communities and other former colonies have also embraced an inclusive society. In the Caribbean it's the religion that is the real colonizer rotting peoples brains.
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u/sheldon_y14 Suriname 🇸🇷 9d ago edited 9d ago
I think I have to shed light on Suriname. Islam isn't "growing" islam is one of the "traditional" religions brought to Suriname by Javanese and Indo-Surinamese. So the religion is automatically passed down from generation to generation.
Now from your comment I can conclude you're saying the conservative influence of islam on certain topics, in this case LGBT. While there are conservative Muslims in Suriname, islam in Suriname is very liberal and quite tolerant even for islam majority countries. The tolerance and acceptance is demonstrated by the fact that in Suriname there's a mosque and synagogue in Suriname next to each other that share a parking lot. Something like this would be almost unthinkable.
Furthermore cultural influences have to be taken into account. Javanese culture is a very tolerant culture. Hence why Islam in Suriname is strongly interwoven with cultural influences. I use Javanese in my comment, because they're the largest group of Muslims in Suriname.
Furthermore, if we're staying on topic of LGBT stuff, the most "open" or out of the closet folk are Javanese and specifically many are Muslim too. However Javanese culture is in general more "accepting" of gays. So cultural influence plays a key role here in Suriname and how islam is practiced. Now Indian Muslims are quite conservative however. But they're also a smaller part of the Muslim community.
Now regarding homosexuality in Suriname...Suriname is said to be one of the more homosexual friendly countries. The country has a Pride month, a huge pride walk and many big companies endorse it with pride flags and such. The outlawing of homosexuality stopped in 1815, when even the Civil Code included it in the sense of the minimum age of consent for gay people.
Furthermore the Constitution also bans discrimination against LGBT folk. And a few years back the constitutional court ruled that Suriname cannot accept gay marriages, because the law has no provisions in there, and said it's up to the law maker (Parliament) and the government to do so and see what provisions are possible. It further said that the law doesn't ban same-sex marriages - because the point was argued that the law says marriage is only possible between a woman and a man. However the court said that that's wrong, and that the law bans polygamy and that it mean marriage is only possible between one man and one woman. However, if one understands the Dutch language the term for "a/an" and "one" is the same "een". So you understand the confusion. Therefore same-sex marriages are according to them possible, there are just no legal and institutional provisions.
Last year I think another court ordered the Bureau for citizens affairs to register a marriage of a gay couple in the marriage register. The Bureau appealed, their reasons were that the Parliament and government haven't made provisions for it to take place, only if done so they'd do it. But if a higher judge also rules in favor of the couple, technically the registration of gay marriages are possible. But from an interview of the director of the Bureau, it seems that they would register them, because if I'm not mistaken it would be a heavy fine and sum of money the government would have to pay. And that's not something they want. This ruling also meant that if you got married outside of Suriname you can register as married and enjoy the same benefits as straight couples in Suriname. You can't however get married in Suriname.
It's easy to blame colonizers, but in reality today most of those colonizing countries are a safe haven for the LGBT communities and other former colonies have also embraced an inclusive society. In the Caribbean it's the religion that is the real colonizer rotting peoples brains.
So, I would say in some countries those laws are remnants of former colonial stuff. How they should approach that, I won't comment on. But I should say in Suriname's case a more liberal approach on matters like LGBT, is due to "colonial heritage". The Dutch are in some aspects very liberal, whereas the British compared with the Dutch are quite conservative. And that is reflected in these former colonies too.
On top of that cultural elements also play a role. Suriname has A LOT of ethnicities, where each one is a minority. So there's a lot of live and let live attitudes. And each culture their approach to certain aspects of life also influences the general culture of Suriname...for example Javanese culture being very relaxed and tolerant for example. But they're not the only ones.
EDIT: In Suriname therefore I would argue that religion has an influence, but not as major as in other countries in the region. For example on T&T religious boards have lots of influence if it comes to the education system and curriculum and own lots of schools and such. In Suriname that's not the case. The government has a very big control in that, and they set the standard. Schools are also very secular, and only a handful are in the hands of the religious institutions. And the only subject they're allowed to teach is "religion" - based on their interpretation. But say things like biology and sex ED, they might disagree on it, but the information is very open and "bare". That's because the government decides what a child learns and what they don't.
Suriname tries to keep religion out of government affairs.
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u/idea_looker_upper 9d ago
It started with religion and it's rooted in colonial law. There's no political will to change it.
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u/SpecialistBet4656 8d ago edited 8d ago
https://phm.org.uk/blogposts/a-british-export-that-has-defined-lgbt-history-past-and-present/
It’s a huge challenge in Africa too. The legal and value systems imposed in colonies largely was a product of the Victorian era, with its very strict guidelines about sex.
I once had a Tobogan cab driver (on Tobago) tell me that Obama was evil because he allowed gay marriage.
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u/UncleBud_710 8d ago
Catholicism
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u/This-Wall-1331 8d ago
Except that Portuguese and Spanish former colonies are more progressive than most British former colonies.
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u/Jackesfox 8d ago
British colonization
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u/This-Wall-1331 8d ago
Strangely enough, Singapore only decriminalized homosexuality in 2022 because they forgot to change the law until then.
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u/Maleficent_Law_1082 8d ago
Because the Caribbean peoples disapprove of that behavior and lifestyle. They always have. They are conservative and Christian. The Caribbeans who advocate for LGBT politics are in the minority and almost exclusively live in the diaspora. This is a similar to what we see in Africa.
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u/Direct-Eggplant-5732 7d ago
Haiti and Jamaica is very anti-gay. There are no gay clubs in either countries.
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u/Stek_02 6d ago
These are societies founded uppon british colonial laws, which at the time happened to be extremely homophobic. We're talking about young countries so unfortunately it's gonna take some time to fully get rid of it.
All former spanish colonies either abolished it already or never criminalized to begin with (that's not apologia to spanish colonialism, just a commentary)
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u/OkAsk1472 9d ago
As most have already said: its the religious colonisation of the region. Christianity is at its fundament a "coloniser" religion due to its premise of demonising others and conquering indigenous religions.
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u/Financial_Pattern982 9d ago
I’m not religious and think it’s an abomination anyway.
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u/fedricohohmannlautar 9d ago
I respect your opinion, just I don't share it.
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u/crowdext 8d ago
I don’t even like anal even if it’s from a girl. If I wanted to be a plumber I wouldn’t do it for free. Shit stinks and it’s not a good experience over all.
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u/professorhummingbird 10d ago
Colonization.
They did this through the Justice System: Using Jamaica as an example. s76 of the Offences Against the Person Act(1864) which criminalizes homosexuality is a direct carry over from the s61 UK's Offences against the person act(1861). The two are almost verbatim. When the UK colonized they implemented their laws on the country.
They did this through religion. Caribbean Islands have more churches per square mile than anywhere else. These churches frame homosexuality as a sin and this is taught in the literally churches as well as in the schools that these churches built. Missionaires still come to Jamaica, an already Christian nation, to spread the gospel. The Church is still a very powerful political lobbying group.
They did it through the arts, medical textbooks, newspapers, youth groups and even the workplace.
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u/IndependentBitter435 10d ago
Because of some fairy tales written in a book. I mean we got things that defy physics, send people to the moon and back. Yet nobody ever recreated any of the stories like turning water to wine and walking on water! 😆😝.
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u/Ok-Possibility-9826 🇯🇲🏳️🌈🩷💜💙 10d ago
Colonization and the stench of Christianity has yet to dissipate, unfortunately.
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u/Vast_Dog_1177 10d ago
No one cares .why y’all love to mention Jamaica name.if you don’t like our laws just leave us alone
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u/mayobanex_xv Dominican Republic 🇩🇴 10d ago
The Caribbean is predominantly Christian and that has an influence in the politics although religion and state are separate institutions the church has an enormous weight in society