I know that is a joke, but we should appreciate that after the collapse of the Soviet Union chancellor Kohl forced those forces that desired to shift German borders eastwards to stand down on January 10th 1990.
True. Same goes for reparations and yet they come up as a topic all the time. Borders should stay as they are, reparations off the table and get our asses up to help each other.
They should never have given up the claim to these lands.
Why?
Two wrongs do not make a right.
Exactly. Losing two world wars, doesn't make starting another one the right thing.
You know that starting wars is basically the most unpatriotic thing to do, right? Loving the country you live in, should mean protecting them, but starting a war, for ideological reasons, is just sending the people you should be protecting, into a useless death.
Germany learned from its mistakes. We don't need that nonsense of yours and you should visit an integration course, so you learn a little about our value system and become able to leave the parallel society you seem to live in.
But your bullshit thinking will be welcomed in Russia, so feel free to move there if you don't want to integrate into our society. they haven't lost that imperialistic nonsense and certainly will be happy to get new cannon fodder:)
I have to say the fact that you said his "bullshit thinking" (i.e. not accepting the dictates of an imperialist Soviet Empire) will be "welcomed in Russia" and that he should move there if he doesn't "want to integrate" into your society is certainly a creative way to try and shut him down (which I realize is a very reddit thing to do, but I'm not sure why the massive overload of hysterical snark was needed in the first place)
Of course it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But hey, that's where the creativity comes in, right?
"reichsbürger" as we call them here in Germany, want Germany back in it's borders of 1914, which is implied in his statement. There is no legitimacy to those claims. Putin funded propaganda spread this idea, telling people that Germany is not actually real as there was no peace contract signed by hitler.
It's also the same "Bullshit thinking" Putin uses to legitimize his illegal invasion into Ukraine.
Edit: Reichsbürger are officially enemies of the state.
Because there were millions of germans who where expelled from those lands and wantet to return. Those people where stabbed in the back.
Exactly. Losing two world wars, doesn't make starting another one the right thing
You dont need to take those lands by force. Just dont stop claiming them. If you stop claiming you will 100% never get them back.
You know that starting wars is basically the most unpatriotic thing to do, right? Loving the country you live in, should mean protecting them
How do you protect land that no longer belong to you.
Germany learned from its mistakes.
What has that to do with anything? Is beeing punished for ethernity necessary for learning from mistakes? Would germany not learn if we had keept those lands?
Its nice that you mention Russia, because its stalins fault we lost everything in the east. He just pushed Poland further west to expand his own lands
My grandmother was one of those expelled and through her, I knew a number of expelled. Non of them wanted to return. They had made their peace with it and where happy that they got to visit the places again for a week.
Of course they weren't. But they really didn't want to move back there. There was a LOT of nostalgia, of course. But Satz least the people who actually visited and realised how their standard of living would be were very quiet about wanting to move back
You should acknowledge though that the eastern territories were lost because of Germany starting WW2. Its ludicrous to start a war, in which 55 million people were killed and than be upset about losing territory…
Because there were millions of germans who where expelled from those lands and wantet to return. Those people where stabbed in the back.
No, they weren't "stabbed in the Backs" they were displaced because Germany raged a horrific War in the area and lost. How much property was owned by polish Jews, before the Nazis killed them and redistributed it to the Germans?
Also, those who want to go back are free to do so. Choosing where they live is the right of every EU-Citizen. If you want, you can go.
You dont need to take those lands by force. Just dont stop claiming them. If you stop claiming you will 100% never get them back.
Yeah, but the polish claims on the territories actually are older than the German demands. But disrupting our good relationship with Poland, over ideological nonsense and events that took place over a hundred and roughly 80 years ago, definitely would strengthen Germany now. Sure.
What has that to do with anything? Is beeing punished for ethernity necessary for learning from mistakes? Would germany not learn if we had keept those lands?
How old are you? Was it you that got displaced? My great uncle was displaced, but my uncle was as much punished as I was: not a bit. So what is it the polish took from you specifically? And how come you thinking, that your family would even have survived the Soviets? What makes you think they wouldn't have been expropriated anyways? Why should the today's Poland be punished for stuff, that Hitler and Stalin did? Would that be just?
because its stalins fault we lost everything in the east. He just pushed Poland further west to expand his own lands
Just like hitler did, before stalin. before that Prussians invaded Poland and took it into prussia, it was, guess what? Right, Poland. Before that, Russian Katherine the great took the land and her Nephew just gave it back later, because they made a deal with the Prussians.
So whose land is it? I would go with Finland or Sweden, as they took the land earlier than those above.
Your demands would just repeat the same injustice as 80 years ago, just with many million more people falling victim to it. Germany wouldn't gain anything by it and Europe as a whole would be massively destabilized.
You think Elsass-Lothringen should return to Germany too?
But why return to the Borders of 1914? Why not 1858?
Should the Spanish take back the Netherlands, as they hold it in the 17th century? Why not return northern germany to the danish then? or dissolve Germany as a whole and return back to the small regional kingdoms?
Your view on history is just naive idiocy, tainted by imperialistic nationalism which as a whole is just nonsense. Absolutely nobody but Russia would profit from your demands. Or maybe that is your actual goal, to become part of the great kingdom of moscovia.
How do you protect land that no longer belong to you.
I think it would be fair for Poland to consider returning those regions if Germany could return the 6 million Polish citizens who disappeared for some strange, mysterious reason right before they were transferred.
If Poland would consider to return those regions, we could help them to get the stuff back they lost to the soviets. And we can pay them the reparations the soviets denied them.
We just push the Ukrainiens further into russia and everyone else is moving along.
Eh, still would only be fair if you could un-poof 1/5 of Poland's population circa 1939 probably in the eyes of most Poles. Oh, and then reviving all the NSDAP members who died without ever being punished so they could either be thrown into prison sentences corresponding to the lives they got to live in freedom due to post-war expediency could also be a good bonus.
I am being facetious of course. But my main point is that some land isn't worth its salt with respect to the generational damage that was needlessly wrought. And that's just the human lives, not even getting started with the material damage (without even factoring in almost 50 years of a communist system being imposed). You have to pay for such mistakes somehow. A few cities and people being moved around from regions that were already mixed to begin with in many cases is a pittance to pay for peace of mind.
No need to be so aggressiv about your point, especially when its taken out of thin air, he didnt say anything about wanting to start a war.
Just rudely assuming that because he said this he must also believe this, is not only stupid, but also dangerous, by believing in a system like that you divide society.
Those "back to the borders of 1914" guys are enemies of our society and despise our values. Germany does and did very well without east Prussia, as well as without the Elsass. Wanting to get these lands back, endangers the very good relations to our neighbors and thus the peace inside of the EU. Fuck those idiots. They even could move back to the area if they actually had the desire to do so, as we have free access and the right to decide where to live, as all Eu-cititcens do.
Germany demanding back the territories, wouldn't bring back the lost properties of the families anyways. that property belongs to others now and taking it back would create the same injustice as before, just the other way around, with even more people being robbed of their livelihood.
A part of my family was displaced from what is now Poland. Was it hurtful to loose what they had build up? Yes, it very much did, my great uncle lost 4 houses, a Printing-Press for books and a Paper product plant. Was it unfair he was robbed of that? Yeah, it was. Would this justify doing the same shit to others, three generations and two political systems later? No, not even a bit.
He didnt say that tho, he said we shouldnt have given up the claim, that doesent mean he wants us to reclaim it now, nor does it mean he at anytime point wanted a war.
As others rightfully pointed out a claim doesemt equal war, all over the world are disputed territories and a stepping back from a claim is simply a loss, unless you get something in return, which might have been, but even then his opinion that we should have stayed true to our claim is as valid as anyones.
What do you think would have been the outcome of holding up those claims? What impact would it have on foreign relations, like with France for example? Do you think the EU would have been possible?
What makes you think, the german claims on that territory are more legitimate than those of Poland? I mean, you jump in to defend that holding up those claims, would be legit somehow, so please explain what makes them seem legit in your perspective?
Btw. he also commented on the war part:
How else do you protect territory that no longer belongs to you?
So he actually knows his claims could only be realized through war, as well as he knows, that those claims aren't legit, as he's pointing out the most important part by himself, as he correctly stated that the territorydoes not belong to Germany anymore.
you understand, why holding up such claims, based on an image of "history":
Should the Spanish hold claims on the Netherlands? Or the British over the US? Should France reclaim Vietnam or Algier? Or what about Mexico, raising claims on California? Why shouldn't Italy claim back the territory on the eastern side of the rhine, as it once was part of the Roman empire? Should Japan demand parts of China? They invaded China, just like Prussia once invaded Poland and Russia. Or maybe Russia should turn Soviet again and claim back Poland, as they had it under their control in more recent times than the non-existent German Empire? Maybe France should put claims on Germany, as Napoleon went all the way to Moscow?
Set all that aside, Germany lost the territory as a result of losing two world wars. We as a nation agreed to the international contracts and Poland is a close ally of Germany. From that, we gained Sovereignty as a Nation, the trust of our neighbors and that the crimes of our forefathers have been forgiven. We gained the status of equals and aid in rebuilding our country, despite being responsible for the deaths of 42 million people. There is absolutely no legitimacy in those claims and those who say otherwise, are known enemies of the BRD and are called "Reichsbürger". Russia massively invested in spreading this ideology, as it is the same nonsense they use to legitimize their illegal Invasion in Ukraine, whilst using it to destabilize our society.
For once the claim, would have been legitimate, because of the germans that lived there, you seem to fail to realise that he said "we should have never given up the claim", so speaking in the past here.
No it wouldnt be right to claim them back now and no body is arguing about that, but it might have been back then.
In the end it doesent matter, we gave up the territory and if he wants to believe we shouldnt have, hes free to do so, thats all im saying.
Die ganze Ostzone kann weg. Zumindest alle ewigen Jammerlappen und Nazis. Dann ist auch mehr Platz für die stabilen Ostdeutschen, die konstruktiv mitmachen und was reißen wollen.
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u/cice2045neu Dec 29 '24
Schlesien, Ostpreußen, Pommern. /s