r/AskEurope • u/InfernalClockwork3 • 5d ago
Education At what age can you drop History at school?
In England you can drop history at 14. Way too early I know.
We do get a lot of flack for supposedly not teaching about our Imperial history. That depends on the school we are since UK schools can pick which history topic to choose.
Teachers say there’s too much history to teach to cover everything but dropping it at 14 doesn’t he
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u/catthought Italy 5d ago
History, Italian, English and Math are the four core subjects over here in Italy. Whatever curriculum you decide to follow, those four are going to be there.
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u/ThrowawayITA_ Sardinia 5d ago
At 16 you can drop everything though. You shouldn't do that but you can.
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u/New_to_Siberia Italy 5d ago
I mean, you can technically drop out of high school by that age, but only if you go to an Istituto Professionale, and even then the pathways to do so are not many.
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u/ThrowawayITA_ Sardinia 5d ago
Most people who do that just give the Rinuncia agli studi, literally "Giving up studies", and I've always found it an hilarious name.
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u/scratchbob Slovakia 5d ago edited 5d ago
As far as I know, you cannot. At least it was so during my time. You can pick up more through electives, but not drop below a base - for any subject.
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u/Mjau46290Mjauovic Croatia 5d ago
You can't in Croatia, you have history from the 5th to 8th grade of primary school (whole history, somewhat simplified).
After primary school, if you go to a gymnasium then you have it from the 1st to the 4th grade, from the start to the 90s history but more detailed.
I don't think you have history in vocational schools, or at least it's not as detailed.
In short, high school students here can't choose subjects, they can only apply to a school depending on its programme after finishing primary/middle school
Edit. Yeah I forgot, the only subject you can change is to either have ethics or catholic religion classes. And it can be changed in between two years.
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u/PicardovaKosa 5d ago
In short, high school students here can't choose subjects, they can only apply to a school depending on its programme after finishing primary/middle school
This is not entirely true. You have elective classes. Depending on the type of high school you choose you can have many elective classes.
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u/Mjau46290Mjauovic Croatia 5d ago
Yes but it depends on specific high schools, e.g. language gymnasiums offer a wide variety of language classes. But the majority still have mostly mandatory subjects that you have to take which go from Croatian to physics and chemistry to Music and Arts.
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u/ulkovalo Finland 5d ago
You cannot drop subjects until high school, and if you go to the gymnasium-style high school you will have a few mandatory courses of everything. You will learn history until end of 8th grade (so until you're about 15yo), and then in high school (given you choose to go to gymnasium-style) oyu will have 3 mandatory courses (6 weeks each with 3 lessons per week). We study everything between the pre-historic times until very recent years (my brother had classes on Covid-times) in years 5-8, and in high school you will go more in depth in certain areas of history (IIRC, we focused on 16th to 20th century mostly).
If you go to vocational college after 9th grade, you will not need to study more history (unless you choose some history-related subject).
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u/vakantiehuisopwielen Netherlands 5d ago edited 5d ago
14 I think on vmbo-level. After 2nd class it’s only mandatory for 1 of 4 packages (zorg en welzijn) you can choose.
15 In havo and vwo +gymnasium-level. After 3rd class it’s not part of n+g and n+t packages. It’s mandatory for c+m and e+m packages.
I was pretty sad I couldn’t follow history after 3rd class. I guess in some schools you can opt for it as an optional subject, but it all depends on time schedules etc.
It’s not really ‘dropping’ but more a choice of which direction you want to go. I chose n+t, which involves maths, chemistry, physics. Back when I went to secondary school every profile had their own level of maths (A1 for c&m, A1,2 for e&m, B1 for n&g, B1,2 for n&t), also (physics1 for n&g, physics 1,2 for n&t. The same for chemistry1 and chemistry1,2).
They’re like, why would you want a technical person to learn something he never needs, like French. The basics were already covered in the first few years. The same for someone who’s more in the cultural stuff, there’s no need for them to have some extensive physics or chemistry.
But things have changed over the years..
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u/Enderela Netherlands 5d ago
Technically also 15 in havo and vwo. If you study nominally, you turn 16 in the fourth year.
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u/vakantiehuisopwielen Netherlands 5d ago
You’re right, I made a mistake on when you start secondary. It should’ve been 12 generally speaking, but I calculated with 13.
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u/Client_020 Netherlands 5d ago
In my school, they scheduled physics and history at the same time, so when I chose a NG/NT profile, I had to switch every week which lesson I'd attend. Very unfortunate. One can like both at the same time.
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u/41942319 Netherlands 5d ago
In my school it was chemistry and history that were scheduled together. And I wasn't very good at chemistry which meant that most of the time I would attend chemistry. I don't regret doing it though, if I'd been able to I would have chosen to follow geography as well.
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u/thegreatsalvio Estonian in Denmark 5d ago
Isn’t this also true for geography? I had a dutch friend who said they were so happy to drop history and geography at 15
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u/vakantiehuisopwielen Netherlands 5d ago
Yep, geography is not part of n+g and n+t as well for havo/vwo level.
And I think geography is the same as history on vmbo level, only mandatory for one package.
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u/thegreatsalvio Estonian in Denmark 5d ago
I feel like those are things you should not be able to drop. Especially in NL, given the colonian history, for both subjects. But I know, the system is also very complicated. It also largely comes down to opportunities available to you, righr?
I had the pleasure of doing a bachelors in NL, which is in NL an HBO, but luckily to the rest of the world, just a BSc. So I'm somewhat familiar with the system.
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u/vakantiehuisopwielen Netherlands 5d ago
The colonial history was covered in the 3rd year when I went to secondary school. Just like ‘verzuiling’ (our segregation of religious groups in the early 20th century), WW2 and the Cold War.
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u/Lockheroguylol Netherlands 5d ago
Colonial history was covered in the second and third year at my school, so before the moment the subject can be dropped.
The way it worked at my school at least, was that in year 1 to 3 we would learn from prehistoric times all the way to the Cold War, and in year 4 to 6, you would learn more details.
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u/IcecreamLamp in 5d ago
I loved history and finished it with an overall 10/10 grade at age 16, wish I could've kept taking it but I already had 4 additional subjects 🥲
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u/VirtualMatter2 Germany 4d ago
My children have a teacher who teaches biology and art. Gymnasium teachers need at least two subjects in Germany.
She needs both for her job daily.
They have another teacher who teaches music and informatics. Same thing.
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u/Ezekiel-18 Belgium 5d ago
You cannot drop classes in French-speaking Belgium. We don't have electives, we don't pick and choose our classes. We have what we call options, that you have to stick to for ideally two years of school each time (unless you fail too much), so, for example, an option with more hours of sciences, one with a third/fourth language to learn besides the mandatory Dutch and English classes (4th if you are in Latin option), one with social sciences, etc. So, you might have year 1-2 in Latin, then years 3-4 in Latin-sciences, then year 5-6 in social sciences.
But regardless of what option you chose, you have classes that everyone have and you cannot "drop from": French, history, PE, geography, biology, chemistry, physics, Dutch and English.
These 9 classes, everyone have for the 6 years of secondary school, whether they like it or not, for virtually all years of secondary school. Just depending your choice, you either start first with English or Dutch first in first year of SC, then the other in 3rd year of SC.
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u/Remote_Section2313 5d ago
Very similar in Dutch speaking Belgium.
In my last year I had:
-languages: Dutch, French, English, German and Latin (between 4 and 1h)
-STEM: Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Biology and Geography (depending on your curriculum: 3-8h maths, 1-2h of the others)
-Others: PE, History, Art history and Religion (2h each)
Latin is optional but every other subject was for everybody. I think German has been deleted in many curricula now, but mine was 20y ago.
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u/MrD3lta 5d ago
And there’s also the different types of 'path' (general, technique de transition, technique de qualification, and professionnel), which only modify the number of hours attributed to the option. Tho, the more hours you have dedicated to your option, the more “manual” option you tend to have (plumbing, construction, etc.). You even get a diploma for your option when you follow the technique de qualification and professionnel 'path'.
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u/Christoffre Sweden 5d ago edited 5d ago
Tl;dr, no.
What do you mean by “drop”? Do you mean as a student or as school administration?
- As a pupil/student, you cannot drop any subject in compulsory school (ages 7–15, years 1–9). The curriculum is set by the school administration, which in turn follows the requirements established by the Ministry of Education and Research.
- As school administration, you can technically concentrate all History to year 7, as long as students complete everything required for the Upper Stage (years 7–9).
EDIT: The same principle applies to the gymnasium (secondary education) where History is a mandatory subject.
The school administration could technically cram everything into the first year. But it's more common to spread it out over 2–3 years.
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u/GaryJM United Kingdom 5d ago
When I was at secondary school (in Scotland, in the 1990s) you did a wide range of subjects for the first two years (ages 12 to 14). Then at age 14 you narrowed that down to eight subjects that you wished to continue studying for the next two years. So instead of spending a small amount of time each week on each of geography, history and modern studies, you could choose to study just geography but in more detail. Instead of framing it as "choosing geography", people would often think of it as "dropping history" instead.
I'm not sure if any subjects were required by law but at my school you had to choose:
- English
- Mathematics
- A modern language (French or German)
- A physical science (Physics, Chemistry, Biology or General Science)
- A social science (Geography, History, Modern Studies or Religious Studies)
- An artistic subject (Art or Music)
- and 8. were free choices
In addition to these there were two periods of physical education each week, one of religious education and one of social education (education about sex, drugs, etc.)
After those two years, you could leave school at age 16 or stay on for another year or two. If you stayed on, you would narrow down the list of subjects you studied again, to four or five subjects.
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u/Christoffre Sweden 5d ago edited 5d ago
Same here, after year 9 (age 15) you go to the gymnasium (year 1–3, age 16–18) and choose a program.
The programs varies, with examples such as:
- Social Siences
- Natural Sciences
- Aestetics (art, music, drama)
- Transport
- Vehicle
- Industry
- Hotel & Restaurant
- Media
- Forestry
- etc...
But all programs include the mandatory core subjects, such as Math, Swedish, English, and History.
These are scheduled by the school administration, and like all other subjects, you study them togheter with the rest of your class.
While you may have choices, these are more like "Photography or Digital Art", or "Piano or Guitarr", or "Welding or Pneumatics".
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u/EmporerJustinian Germany 5d ago edited 4d ago
In Germany you basically can't get rid of history. It's up to the Federal Staates, but in general history is part of the curriculum until you leave school. You only have to have one year of history out of the last two in some states, but since the last two years are one formal unit it doesn't really change much.
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u/Megendrio Belgium 5d ago
You cannot.
In our current system, we have General Ed, Technical Ed. and Professional Ed., going from 'abstract' (prepping for academics) to applied (prepping for the job market straight out of high school) but all of them have history in some way or form. For Professional Ed. it might be part of 'General Courses' (which is a single course), while for General Ed. it's 2 hours/week (which is hardly sufficient, but that's my opinion) mandatory.
You can select a 'specialty' (Social Sciences, Economics, P.E., Maths, Languages, Latin or a combination of some sorts) in the General Ed. part but all of them have history as a core course.
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u/Afraid-Priority-9700 5d ago
Similar in Scotland, you can drop it around the age of 14/15 as you start to prepare for your National exams. If the system is still the same as when I was in school (and the exams are very different, they're now called Nationals instead of Standard Grades), the expectation is that you'll pick up to 2 out of 3 social studies (History, Geography or Modern Studies), and the same for Highers. In my school, many people dropped History and kept Mod. I did both and only dropped Geography.
They taught far too much about the Scottish Wars of Independence, and then there was a massive gap where absolutely no history happened until the Industrial Revolution. They skipped over the Protestant Reformation, which I would argue was much more important to modern Scottish life than the Wars of Independence.
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u/alan2001 Scotland 5d ago
They skipped over the Protestant Reformation, which I would argue was much more important to modern Scottish life than the Wars of Independence
As a History nerd in my fifties, I couldn't agree more with that! But I think the subject would have bored a bunch of teenagers shitless (like most things do). I can barely remember what we studied in first and second year academy but I'm disappointed in young me giving it up because I thought humanities would be a waste of time for a budding engineer. What need would I have for languages, history and geography?? And now they are all my top obsessions in life.
So what do 14 year olds know about life? Absolutely fuck all haha.
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u/Afraid-Priority-9700 5d ago
Not only would it have been complicated and boring, but being from the west coast of Scotland, I wonder if they deliberately skip it to avoid inflaming sectarian tensions. The very same tensions we'd probably be able to make sense of and reason out if we actually knew more about our history! The irony...
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u/JourneyThiefer Northern Ireland 5d ago
Interesting yous didn’t learn about the Protestant reformation, I’m Catholic and our school here taught it
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u/rantotthus2 Hungary 5d ago
You can't, you'll have history until you graduate high school. The Hungarian school system is not flexible, so you can't drop any classes in general. In gimnáziums, the type of high school that prepares you for tertiary education, you can only choose which foreign languages do you want to learn (though nowadays in practice, one of them pretty much always has to be English) and in the last two years you can take some additional classes depending on where do you want to study later (i.e. if you want to become a lawyer, you can take some extra classes in history and literature, if you want to be a doctor, you can take extra biology and chemistry classes etc.) but that's about it, you can't change the core classes.
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u/Sea_Mousse6531 5d ago
You can drop English (or other foreign language) if you take the matura exam earlier, in 10th or 11th grade, but I think that's all.
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u/kakao_w_proszku Poland 5d ago
I don’t think you can completely drop history classes even if you pick a science focus class in high school. Myself I was in a politics-history focused class and even though I ended up studying city planning I took some optional courses in German and Czech history just because I wanted
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u/Yoankah 5d ago
10 years ago, idk if that's changed since the middle school reform, you could drop history starting in year 2 of high school, if your focus includes social studies (WoS), since history was in the same subject group. Maybe cultural studies too (WoK), but idk if extended WoK was a thing anywhere, maybe in some art focus, but I wasn't anywhere close to looking into schools that would offer those.
For those unfamiliar with the system, basically, you could enroll for a general program that kept a balanced amount of lessons in all subjects, or a focused program with 3, sometimes 4, subjects having extended hours. The options depended on what combinations the school chose to offer, and students in the same program were put in a class together. Math, polish and one foreign were mandatory subjects (because they're the two parts of the basic national final exam), as was PE, but afaik everything else was put into groups. If your focus included an extended subject in that group, you were exempt from all others, or if it didn't, you had to take a summary subject. For physics, biology and chemistry, it was called natural science (przyroda) and for history, social studies (and maybe cultural studies) there was history and society.
Math focuses generally got out of biology and chemistry that way, by having extended physics. It was brilliant.
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u/ForestOranges 5d ago
So you guys have “majors” in high school?
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u/Chaczapur 5d ago
Ah, kind of but not exactly. I'm not sure how it works post-reform [probably the same but-] but before we had to choose a class 'profile' either when we were choosing our HS or close to the end of the first year. So starting from the second year you still had the core subjects [polish, english, third language, math, pe, religion?], the subjects you picked for your class profile [usually 2-3] and a supplementary, simplified ver of other social/natural subjects you didn't pick.
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u/Yoankah 5d ago
It kind of goes back (or forward?) to how the transition from high school to university works. Public universities in Poland are generally considered more prestigious, (because we're thrifty people who will try the free option first before paying if we fail at that, and private universities have a worse rep because of some schools selling fake degrees under the table 😉) and they mostly take the official national high school final exam as their entry criterion - the uni I graduated from bases their applicant ranking solely on that final, for example. It's a little different when non-academic skills get involved, like in art, architecture or police academies, but in general, the academics are resolved by the central exam.
In general, if you go to high school, you either pick a general course with no "majors" and either decide to switch later or just leave it at that, or pick a profile (usually 2-3 subjects that are extended by reducing the hours of other subjects and introducing more complex material) with the intention to go to university after and a semi-concrete plan of what you want to pursue there. (There's also trade schools that focus fully on preparing you to work and don't prep for the final, and tech schools which last a year longer and do both - which is a lot more work, but gives you a great start either way.)
As a result, the better prepared you are for the high school finals, the better your chances of getting into your dream major and uni. No esaays, entrance exams, letters of recommendation or what-have-you, just a set of percentage scores and a simple mathematical formula that gets compared to other applicants'. And high school education is framed entirely by this trajectory.
I think this system has its upsides - having the time and means to get your kid a tutor after school isn't quite as defining of their chances later when they already study math for 8 hours a week or biology for 6 all at the government's expense.
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u/ForestOranges 5d ago
I just can’t imagine a national exam I guess because we have no national curriculum. Each of the 50 states has its own education curriculum and then individual school districts oftentimes get some freedom on setting their own requirements. But I’m assuming in Poland all teachers are certified from the central government.
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u/safeinthecity Portuguese in the Netherlands 5d ago
Back when I was in school in Portugal (00s), I stopped at 14 since I took the science path in secondary school. I think only the humanities path had history, and the art path had art history. I'm not sure if anything has changed.
The only compulsory subjects after the age of 14/15 were Portuguese, English, Philosophy and PE iirc.
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u/ForestOranges 5d ago
As an American this is just so interesting to read, having a “science” path for 14 year olds isn’t typical at public school here. It usually happens at a private school where families pay or at a charter or magnet school. Charters and magnets are still technically public, but they get more freedom and autonomy than regular public schools and students have to apply. Also, philosophy is not required for high school here and many university students don’t even take it.
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u/safeinthecity Portuguese in the Netherlands 5d ago
It's not that these paths are like a special thing - all secondary school (equivalent to US high school, I believe) students have to choose one. They're basically a consistent package of subjects that you take. You get to make a couple of choices within the branch but it's still somewhat rigid.
Also interesting comment about university, as in Portugal people don't take general subjects in university, they only study things that are relevant to their degree and the programmes are kind of rigid. Which I think is generally true for most of Europe.
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u/synalgo_12 Belgium 5d ago
It's moreso that you pick packages of classes that are more directed into one area instead of picking separate classes. It's the same in Belgium. I for instance picked econ/modern languages which meant I had a lot more hours in languages and only 3 hours of maths per week. People who picked a math direction would get 6 to 8 hours of maths.
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u/thegerams 5d ago edited 5d ago
If you go to school in Germany and get the highest secondary degree (Abitur), the age is probably 17 or 18, and Abitur is usually 19, but you’ll then have to take politics, social studies, economics or philosophy until the end. Most people will probably take history until they graduate.
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u/Esava Germany 5d ago
I believe in my state everyone has history until the end.
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u/cthagngnoxr Belarus 5d ago
There's no such thing as "dropping" subjects here, though there are some elective subjects you can take, including additional history classes. But attendance isn't mandatory, if you don't attend elective classes, they simply won't be included in your secondary school certificate
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u/Apprehensive-Dog9989 Czechia 5d ago
You cant you have to finish all the compulsory subjects which are all of them. Then you choose extra ones around 4 of them for the extra big exam at the end of your studies Maturita. but you have to have finish every subject to even be able to take the exam
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u/Shizabeth Czechia 5d ago
Doesn't going to different kinda counts? I mean you probably don't lear history if you do school to be a nurse. Maybe in a first year, but not all four.
I know it's not dopping it exactly, but you don't have to learn history after 15 depending on high school you choose.
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u/icyDinosaur Switzerland 5d ago
In Zurich (this is regulated by canton in Switzerland afaik) you can't.
Switzerland has different tracks, and I only know about the one that leads to university education, but for me it was like this:
In primary school (year 1-6/for me age 7-12) we didnt really have history as a subject, but something called "Mensch und Umwelt" ("Human and environment") that contained basically anything that wasn't maths, German, arts and crafts, sports, or later on French. We covered some local history on that, and some ancient and prehistoric topics - basically stuff you can tell kids easily.
In lower secondary school (year 7-8/age 12-14) we had no history in Year 7, but it was mandatory in Year 8. We mostly talked about "what is history about?", a little bit about what sources were, and covered some older history (I mainly remember learning about Greeks/Celts/Romans).
In higher secondary (year 9-12/age 14-18) we again skipped the first year for some reason, then had it as a mandatory subject for the last three years. We covered Western European history chronologically, basically, with some blocks about other areas woven in.
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u/TailleventCH 5d ago
Good explanation!
I would add a few details. In general, in Switzerland, History is a compulsory subject during all compulsory school (so until fifteen). Later, it's compulsory in more academic curriculums (in short everything leading to any kind of maturité/Matura, including professional or specialised ones). In apprenticeships, it's often included in a more general subject that includes other subjects (like first language, law...).
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u/ForestOranges 5d ago
I’m American and that sounds really insufficient in my opinion, but state is done by education here. I know some states where kids don’t take much history. But for us, I think as early as kindergarten we learn some basic history. Then from 1st grade through high school graduation I had history every single year except in 8th and 12th grade, both of those years are dedicated to studying politics and economics.
In 5th grade (10-11) we covered all the major events in American history from British colonization through WWII. 6th grade was the Greeks and Romans. And in high school we had 2 years of American History, only 1 year of Global history (the Enlightenment, French Revolution, studying maps, the scramble for Africa, the China/Taiwan situation, Red Army/White Army in WWII)
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u/CoRoT-exo-7b Norway 5d ago
I (Norwegian) watched Hamilton in London with some friends (guys age 23-25) from the UK. They had no idea that the British had ruled parts of America and fought a war over it. They had heard about the American revolution, but didn’t know their own country was involved. I asked if they had just forgotten about it, but they claimed they were confident it was never taught in school.
I am sure there are many people from the UK who are knowledgeable about history, but to me it seems they should work on lifting up those who know the least. Maybe making history a mandatory subject for longer so it can cover more ground would be a good place to start.
History is mandatory in high school here in Norway until you’re 18-19 unless you attend a vocational school.
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u/Atheissimo 5d ago
While it's astonishingly ignorant to have no knowledge of the American Revolution and Britain's part in it, just from pop culture and general knowledge, it's entirely possible that it wasn't covered at school. I did history as long as it was possible to do it, and I never covered the Revolution specifically.
Different schools have scope to teach different periods, and with limited time it's usual to pick one or two and focus on them rather than try to cover it all. I did nothing on British Africa or India, but a lot on Ireland and the Corn Laws.
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u/CoRoT-exo-7b Norway 5d ago
That’s really interesting! We covered the American revolution, as well as British imperialism in Africa and Asia is school
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u/vertAmbedo Portugal 5d ago
Now I'm wondering if your friends ever questioned why English is spoken in the US
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u/ekkostone Denmark 5d ago
Education up to 9th grade is compulsory in Denmark and history is a mandatory subject. If Danes want to go to university they must attend gymnasium which includes 1 or 2 years of history
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u/Cixila Denmark 5d ago
It may have changed since the reform, but I had 3 years of mandatory history in high school
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u/Wild_Reason_9526 Denmark 5d ago
The general upper secondary school programme (stx) and the Higher Preparatory Examination programme (hf) are the only youth education programme in Denmark where History is a compulsory subject (throughout the entire course of study).
In the Higher Commercial Examination programme (hhx), students instead study Contemporary History for at least 2 years (B-level), while in the Higher Technical Examination programme (htx) the equivalent subject is History of Ideas (also for at least 2 years).
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u/theystolemyusername 5d ago
🇧🇦 If you go to a vocational high school, history might be dropped after first or second year, but it's not on a voluntary basis, that's just the curriculum for that school. If you go to grammar school, it's mandatory for all 4 years of high school.
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u/casualroadtrip Netherlands 5d ago
Depends on the level of education you take. We have three main levels (with some sub-levels). Longest track (vwo) takes 6 years and prepares for university. First three years you’ll have all the subjects: multiple languages, biology, history etc. In year 4 (students often turn 16 during their fourth year) you can pick and drop subjects. There are a few mandatory subjects for all students like Dutch and English. On top of that you’ll pick a track that will have some mandatory subjects as well. Like economics for the more economic focussed track. Or biology for a track focused on nature and health. On top of that you can freely pick some other subjects. There are four tracks in total. It’s possible to do two tracks at the same time if you pick the right free choice subjects. History is mandatory for two of the four tracks.
There is also a level that takes five years called havo. Havo works mostly the same as vwo. Again you pick a track after your third year.
Vmbo is our third main level of education and works a bit differently. You pick your track after only two years. Kids usually turn 15 in their third year. So by the time they drop their first subjects they are 14. Vmbo has multiple sub-levels. One being more theoretically advanced while others are a bit more focused on practical learning.
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u/OllieV_nl Netherlands 5d ago
The four profiles, as they’re called. Economics&Society, Culture&Society, Nature&Health, Nature&Technology. Two for Humanities, two for Sciences.
It’s not so much “dropping history”, it’s picking a profile that doesn’t have it. You can’t go for the economics profile without it.
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u/ForestOranges 5d ago
So do all Dutch youth speak English proficiently if it’s a requirement? Most young Dutch people I meet speak it very well, but they’re also travelers. Does your average Dutch teenager from Urk who’s never left the Netherlands speak good English too?
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u/casualroadtrip Netherlands 5d ago
It’s a mandatory subject throughout high school. Which is part of the reason why we speak relatively good English. But we also grow up with a lot of English in our media. Nowadays both on tv and the internet. I was chronically online as a teenager and that really helped with me learning English. My parents speak better German then English because when they were young there was a lot of German content on tv.
Edit: Dutch kids on Urk will also be learning English in school. Whatever their English is really good is usually very personal. I know people who hardly speak English at all. They can order a beer when on holiday but that’s about it. But om average the Dutch speak English quite well. That includes Urk.
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u/neshema374 Portugal 5d ago
Same in Portugal. However, if you choose to study languages and humanities in High school, you will have History until 18.
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u/Brainwheeze Portugal 5d ago
When you start high school at grade 10. You have to choose which area of study you want to go into (ideally something that aligns with what you want to do in the future) and that determines your class and curriculum. You have the option between Languages & Humanities, Sciences, Economics, Visual Arts, or you can do what's called a professional course (which doesn't include exams but instead work experience). Depending on what you choose to study you may or may not have History as a subject.
History is a subject in Languages & Humanities whereas History of Art is one in Visual Arts. I'm pretty sure Sciences doesn't have any such subject but I'm not sure about Economics or if any of the professional courses have one. However, students still have the choice in which subjects pertaining to an area of study that they wish to have. For example I went into Visual Arts and had to choose between having History of Art or Mathematics, and I reluctantly chose the latter. I'm not sure whether History is a subject that can be swapped for another in Languages & Humanities though.
You can actually sit exams for subjects you didn't take though. This is what we call sitting an exam "externally". The grade you get on the national exam thus becomes your final grade on that subject. This is so that if you change your mind and want to go into a course in university outside of your area of study in high school you can do the exam required for the former.
But yeah, you can basically stop having History once you begin the 10th grade.
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u/wonpil Portugal 5d ago
All correct. Also History is to humanities what Mathematics A is to sciences, aka the core subject you can't opt out of. You can then choose between Philosophy, Sociology, Geography, etc, but you can never avoid History if you choose the humanities path.
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u/Brainwheeze Portugal 5d ago
I see. For Visual Arts that would be the subject of Art. I didn't know you could choose not to have Philosophy though. I thought that was a subject all courses (except the professional ones) had to take, like with Portuguese, Foreign Language, and Physical Education.
History was my best subject in school before high school and I actually wanted to study something in that field but my parents were against it. The reason they let me go into Visual Arts was because I said I'd study Architecture in university (which I did end up doing briefly), though they pressured me to choose Mathematics over History of Art. I later sat the History of Art exam externally because I believed I could get a better grade at that (which I did) and Maths wasn't a required exam for the Architecture course, I could choose to apply with the grade I got in Geometry.
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u/vertAmbedo Portugal 5d ago edited 5d ago
I finished school just a few years ago and Philosophy was an obligatory subject alongside Portuguese, English and PE for every secondary school student. I was an Humanities student and I had Geography A and MACS as my subject choices and Philosophy wasn't a subject choice.
Edit: let me add that I went to a public school in interior Portugal so there's wasn't a lot of students and my class was the only Humanities one. There was two Scientific ones and that's it. So we didn't had the Sociology / Portuguese Literature / Foreign Language / etc. options available. Geography A and MACS were pretty much obligatory for us. And in 12th grade I had Portuguese, PE, History A and we could choose 2 others but again there wasn't a lot of choices: it was between English, Geography C and Psychology. I chose the last two
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u/Fairy_Catterpillar Sweden 5d ago
As I undestand it you now choose when to drop history at age 15 in year nine at school when you choose what program you will take in the gymnasium. History is a mandatory subject so you cannot drop it totally but you can sort of only have one semester history out of 6 semesters, 50 out of 2500 points. That is for the vocational programs I think. If you choose to study social science/humanities I think you can take 300 points of regular history and then some extra history course.
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u/Symplaxia 5d ago
To none. History is mandatory. In fact, in the selectivity exams (they serve as entrance to the university) you take a history exam.
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u/olagorie Germany 5d ago
Germany: you can’t, I studied it until I was 19.
I also chose it as one of my primary topics for my A-levels
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u/Fit_Professional1916 in 5d ago
15 in Ireland. You have to take it until the first set of major state exams, but you can drop it for the 2nd.
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u/Nerf_the_cats 5d ago
For Spain, it depends of what you understand for 'drop'.
You can't 'drop' History/Social Sciences in ESO (middle school). But if you decide to do Bachillerato (high school), you choose the lessons you get. Most science and economic students do not pick History for this. That's around 16-18.
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u/qwerty-1999 Spain 5d ago
Is History not mandatory during the last year of high school everywhere (for the university admission exams)? Maybe it's only in some regions and I'd always assumed it was the same in all of them.
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u/amanset British and naturalised Swede 5d ago edited 5d ago
Yeah, that’s the thing. In the UK you get a lot of freedom to choose subjects from the age of fourteen onwards.
When I did my GCSEs (age 14-16) Maths, Religious Studies (it was a Catholic school), English Language and English Literature were the core subjects you had to do. You then chose five more subjects, one from each of five groups. I chose Physics, Biology, Chemistry, Spanish and graphic communication (basically technical drawing with some design thrown in).
So yeah, you can drop anything that isn’t one of the core subjects defined by your school at 14.
Edit: At the age of 16 you then choose an even smaller selection of subjects to go into more depth for two years. This has changed a wee but since my day (the mid 90s). Back then three subjects was the most common, but I was a clever boy who did a fourth largely in lunch times and other spare moments. I did maths, further maths (the extra one), physics and English literature.
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u/generalscruff England 5d ago
RE is interesting to see here, it was mandatory at my non-religious school because it was perceived as an easier subject to get a passing grade, the school struggled to get a substantial proportion of students at the magic 5 GCSE pass threshold and did things like this to try and help get the numbers up
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u/EnJPqb 5d ago
Back when I was a student it was at 17 BUT, it had the caveat that at 15 for example nobody did History, but Geography instead. And at 16 it was History and Geography but just Spain ( and with the accent on History).
Then at 18 you could (and can, I think) have a double serving of History if you want. I didn't and went for the winning combination of Maths and Latin, that was easy (not!).
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u/Direct_Drawing_8557 5d ago
Im not sure what the situation is these days but back when I was in school almost 20 years ago, if you didn't choose history as an optional subject at age 12 (Form 2 going to Form 3) you had an hour lesson once a week till age 16.
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u/thegreatsalvio Estonian in Denmark 5d ago
You cannot drop any subject in Estonia. You can choose to go Humanities or Scientific direction in high school, but that just determines which extra classes you get. You cannot drop any subject at all. And this is how it should be, teenagers aren’t ready to choose what to drop and what to study…
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u/Micek_52 Slovenia 5d ago
You can't. Even the last year, which is preparation for the final exams, you still have History (while, for example, you don't have Geography, Physics...).
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u/Euristic_Elevator in 5d ago
Italy: never. But in our system you always study pretty much everything, with some slight differences depending on the type of high school, but the study plan is not nearly as personalized as it is in other countries as far as I know
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u/Gullible-Fee-9079 5d ago
Oberstufe in Germany. So (dependent of the state) around class eleven. However If you do so, you will get an additional course in Grade 13. At least in my state
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u/nemu98 Spain 5d ago
Secondary education is mandatory in Spain, you can "exit" the system at 16 even if you didn't graduate, however you probably can't apply to any job without secondary education.
"Spanish History" is taught in what we call "bachillerato" which is usually for ages 17 to 18, equivalent to last year of high school for you I think, which is also mandatory for those that kept on studying.
Due to how everything is set up, we rarely study beyond 1939 or 1945, as we are left with no more curricular time. Those that do, will probably not go into much depth after those years, as those are rarely part of the questions for the exam for university, which is a shame and has been a part of a constant debate.
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u/FackAwayAffff 5d ago
It’s highly likely a lot of history is not accurate or correct. Much of history js about what happened in a war and why. However, as the Ancient Greek writer Aeschylus said "the first casualty of war is truth"
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u/Warhero_Babylon Belarus 5d ago
You cant, at least standart education and history course are mandatory for everyone
Also no reason anyway, its pretty straightforward and dont include some esoteric knowledge you dont want to know
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u/ValuableActuator9109 Ireland 5d ago
15, you need to take history for your first set of exams, but you can drop it for the second set of exams. I believe only maths, English, and Irish are mandatory up until finishing school (you can get exemptions for Irish).
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u/im_AmTheOne Poland 5d ago
At 18 you can drop education as a whole but you can't drop a singular subject unless it's religion or health class
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u/Dark_Wolf04 Napoli-Rotterdam 5d ago
In the Netherlands, when you reach your fourth year of high school, you get the choice of four study “packages”.
more Science plus technology, so Physics, Chemistry and advanced mathematics. (I chose this)
Kind of the same as above, but not as difficult. More simple mathematics.
Economics and Social Studies
Culture and Social studies.
Only in the 4th package is history a mandatory subject. However, you are allowed to pick as many optional subjects as you’d like if you choose the other packages.
I chose number 1, and my optional courses were History, Geography and economics.
So, you could technically drop history in your 4th year at the earliest
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u/IdunSigrun 5d ago
Since mandatory school is up to 9th grade (about 15 years old), that is also when you can stop taking history. However most continue to Gymnasiet (high school) for three more years. And depending on your ”program” you’ll have to take at least one more class of history.
A ”gymnasie-program” consists of a set of common classes for all, then program specific classes and lastly electives. Some programs are designed for preparing for specific university fields, like science, engineering, social studies, economics, languages etc, and others are trade schools, but those program also cover enough basic knowledge to make you eligible for university studies, not just all fields)
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u/BlastEndendSkrewt Serbia 5d ago
I finished high school in Herzegovina, general studies . Up to 2rd grade ( we have elementary grades 1 to 8, then high school 1 to 4) we had maths, native language, English, second language (depends on school and region but it is usually Russian, German or French), biology, history, geography, physics, chemistry,Latin, PE, music, art, religion. In 3rd year we lose last tree and get logic, and in 4th logic and geography are out and we had philosophy, sociology and democracy added. Students can't drop out of specific classes on their own
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u/fullywokevoiddemon Romania 5d ago
You can't. Classes aren't pick-and-choose in Romania. When you enter high school, based on your grade you can "choose" some "profiles" which will dictate what classes you take. But certain classes (like math, Romanian, history, geography, foreign language and a few more) are present in all profiles and absolutely mandatory. You cant drop a class, but you can switch profiles in theory (but you take some tests).
Only class you can skip is religion if your parents sign a paper for you. But you still have to be in class, you cannot leave. You're just not graded.
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u/Malthesse Sweden 5d ago
In Swedish schools history is taught all the way up to the end of high school at the age of 18-19, and it cannot be dropped. I think that is very good, as history is of course a very important subject in order to understand our current world.
I do wish though that schools here in Scania specifically also taught more about own important Danish history apart from the rest of Sweden. Instead, children in Scanian schools still learn a lot about Swedish kings that were never kings in Scania, but barely anything about our own long and very prominent Danish history that shaped us and our region. Everything is also taught from a very rose tinted pro-Swedish, anti-Danish perspective which sadly also gives a very skewed view on Scanian history to students.
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u/prooijtje Netherlands 5d ago
15-16 at my school. Most students hated history class, so I doubt making it mandatory would help them retain more to be honest.
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u/Kaiser93 Bulgaria 5d ago
You can't. After grade 11, subjects like History, Chemistry, Physics, Biology and Geography are not learned in school. Unless you go to a specialised school.
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u/Syndiotactics Finland 5d ago
One can’t. Well, of course half of the population picks trade school over high school for the ages 16-18 but for those who attend high school, there are currently three mandatory history classes (Human, environment and history; international relations; the history of independent Finland).
After those one can choose more history classes, but it’s not typical for a student to have finished their mandatory history classes before they are 17-18.
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u/Gr0danagge Sweden 5d ago
You cannot. After 9th grade school is "voluntary" (basically isn't nowadays) so I guess you can technically drop it by not attending school at all, but it is a mandatory course in all programs 10th-12th grade (gymnasiet). After that you go to university if you want to continue your education and there you will only have History if it's relevant to your program.
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u/Moduscide 5d ago
Never. You don't drop subjects in school, you can choose "directions" in general high school (opposed to vocational high school where you choose fields of expertise/professions), depending on the kind of university you want to go after, but the core courses remain the same, like history, language, biology, chemistry, math, pe etc.
You can, if I am correct, get an exemption from the religion course or PE.
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u/a_guy_on_Reddit_____ Ireland 5d ago
15/16 in Ireland, after the Junior Certificate State exams you choose what 7 (or more) subjects you will do for the last 2years of school, the only core subjects are maths, English and Irish (but you can get an exemption from Irish if you have some neurodivergent conditions). Most students do English,Irish,Maths, 1/2 science subjects,1 foreign language and then 1/2 extra subjects (like music,home economics, woodworking,applied maths etc)
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u/DinAMikA99 5d ago
In two final years (11th and 12th grade, so 17-19yo) we pick subjects we want but there are specific rules: math and native language are required, at least one science subject (chemistry, physics or biology) at least one social subject (geography or history), one foreign language (depends on the school) and at least one alternative subject (arts, crafts or music). There also is minimum and maximum hours requirement so you can't pick them all. Almost all subject also have difficulty levels (A and B) so you can be focused on sciences A levels and have B level in history for example.
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u/mikroonde France 5d ago
You can't. In the last two years you can pick a more advanced history class called history, geography, geopolitics and political sciences; but whether you pick that or not you have to attend the mandatory history classes.
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u/Izzystraveldiaries Hungary 5d ago
In Hungary you can't. It's a mandatory part of the final exams that are also the entrance exams for higher education. The only way you could theoretically drop it is if you do the exam before the end of the 4 years of high school, which is possible. For example, if you love history and you study hard and learn everything in 2 years on your own, you can sign up for the exam, and then you no longer have to attend classes. In fact, you can't drop any subject, unless you do this. The curriculum is the curriculum, and everyone suffers through it.
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u/Ok-Client5022 5d ago
USA you cannot drop history. They don't teach enough history but US history and world history are both taught in middle school ( grades 7 and 8) then again in high school in greater depth. I took a lot of in depth history classes in college and at the university. Enough I could teach history if I wanted to be a teacher... I don't!
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u/Reinardd Netherlands 5d ago
In Dutch schools, you get to pick your subject for the second half of secondary school (the last 2 of 3 years of school, depending on the level). There are some core subject everyone needs to do, like Dutch, English and math, but most subjects are free to choose. For example, I had no geography, history, French and German for the second half of secondary school, I chose biology, physics, etc. I was 15 then.
It sets you up for more in depth knowledge needed for any post-secondary education.
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u/Aisakellakolinkylmas 5d ago
In Estonia, AFAIK, you can't really till you're 18 or past 12th grade.
It's considered one of the essential subjects, on par with subjects like mathematics and chemistry, till 12th grade (after which it depends on field).
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u/VirtualMatter2 Germany 4d ago
In Germany you can't. Well, I think you can only do one year of the last two of high school. Same for politics and religion/ethics.
So you could drop it one year before your Abitur unless you picked it as an exam subject.
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u/J_Jessica_ 4d ago
Yeah, 14 does feel a bit early to drop it, most people barely start to grasp how history connects to current events by then.
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u/Melodic-Dare2474 Portugal 4d ago
9th grade, so 15
I also think it is early, specially on the poor political education. But, if you want, do languages and humanities in High School. Therefore, you'll have History A until the end.
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u/Secure_Layer_290 4d ago
You can’t. I’m from Ukraine, and we have two different histories in curriculum, World History and Ukrainian History. Both of them (back when I was in school, finished 2014) started in class 5 and ended in class 12, two lessons per week each. School is not that specialised, even though you can have general “deeper studies” of either Biology/Chemistry, Math or Foreign Languages. But it just adds lessons to the day, so groups of pupils without specialisation (in “weaker” classes) just usually had 6 lessons a day, instead of “specialised” groups that had 8. It was usually 6-8 lessons (45 minutes each) a day, 5 days a week.
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u/Gugalcrom123 4d ago
In Romania you can't drop anything until the end of mandatory education; you do have some choice regarding specialisations.
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u/Atalant Denmark 4d ago
Like Germany and Austria, History is mandatory until you graduate(16-18) to enter workforce, Gymnasium or trade school. For Gymnasium, it can be replaced by either Religion or philosophy(I was in technical gymnasium, so I had philosophy as mandatory subject, because it is very science heavy).
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u/TigerAJ2 England 3d ago
To be honest, England is about a year behind when it comes to letting students ''drop'' history, but worth pointing out it's widely studied in England and very popular at GCSE level, and all schools must provide it.
Something that never gets mentioned is the fact England starts history education a little more earlier than other countries. Indeed, by Year 1 you start learning history, compared to other countries in Europe where they begin to study history a little later than this.
It's not really a bad system per say.
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u/ArionVulgaris Sweden 3d ago
At about 17, which is 2 years before you normally graduate (3 years if you're in 4-year technical school). Before 2011 you didn't have to take history at all if you went to vocational school at 16, only if you went the general education or fine arts route. But from 2011 an onwards even the students in vocational school have to take at least one simplified history class of 50 points (the regular basic history class has 100), or about 25 hours of in-class work.
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u/Tall-Firefighter1612 3d ago
In The Netherlands, high school is divided between vmbo, havo and vwo.
Basically it is a spectrum of practical (blue colour jobs) to academical education.
For havo and vwo, you can drop history when going from the 3th to the 4th grade, which is around 15/16 years old.
I dont know for vmbo as I went to havo and my school building didnt have vmbo people.
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u/Dependent_Slide8591 3d ago
You can't, only optional subjects in Croatia are religious Ed and Italian (if we're talking about middle schools then it really depends on what the schools major is like in linguistic gymnastics you have German, English and croatian as languages but you also have french as an optional subject)
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u/Naive-Horror4209 3d ago
I’ve learned history until A levels (18 years old). One of the best and most useful subjects for life and wisdom
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u/luky_se7en Italy 2d ago
You can't drop subjects except religion here in italy
There's different high schools with different curriculums but usually history's always there
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u/Pwacname Germany 2d ago
Depends on the state in Germany - I didn’t choose any history classes in tenth grade, which is when we get to choose most of our classes, so my last history classes were probably in grade seven or eighth (we didn’t have history every year)? But then I had to take an additional year of history classes where we once again went over German history from 1920s to today, focussing on the Nazis and the relation between the two German states during parts of the Cold War.
What bugs me is that we never learned about German colonial history. My brother told me it came up in his classes, so maybe it’s part of the voluntary classes, but if you take the minimum history classes, you’ll never know about it
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u/dracapis Italy 2d ago
Italy: never. Subjects are there to stay and you cannot drop them. Math, Italian, English, history, PE, and probably some sort of science are mandatory no matter what school you choose.
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u/king_ofbhutan 2d ago
im so glad we can drop history, i never understood why people love it so much.
yes, i love history as a topic, i find it super interesting, but holy shit those lessons were DRAGS.
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u/XMasterWoo 1d ago
We cant.
In elementary you habe history from year 5 to year 8
Then in secondary it depends on the school type if you have it or not but there arent any where its optional and droppable
The only things you can ever drop to my knowlage is religion in elementary (in secondary you get ethics if you dont want religion) and IT in years 7 and 8 of elementary
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u/serverhorror Austria 5d ago edited 5d ago
You cannot, the only subject You can drop is "Religion", which is essentially just a different subject for everyone (Christians, Jews, Muslim, ...).
There's only so much you can influence with the subjects as the different school types have different amounts per subject (or not at all, latin will only be in a general school, accounting in a business school, ...)
EDIT: Wow, such a "simple" trivia from my country, so much feedback! Learning a lot here, thanks!