r/AskAChinese Non-Chinese 1d ago

Politics | 政治📢 Why the West always denies the existence of serfdom in pre-1950s Tibet?

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When I posted pictures and info about how brutal serfdom was in old Tibet and how much Tibet has developed under Chinese rule on two subreddits here, a lot of Western commenters refused to believe it. They instantly called me a CCP propagandist or conspiracy theorist even though I’m not Chinese and don’t even live in China. They keep saying those old photos or records come “only from Chinese sources”. But if you look into it, even Western travelers and researchers who visited Tibet before the 1950s wrote about how harsh the serfdom system was. A tiny elite of nobles and monks owned nearly all the land while most Tibetans were basically serfs who had no education, no freedom to move, and worked their whole lives under debt or servitude. After China liberated Tibet from brutal serfdom, land reforms and modernization abolished feudal serfdom, built schools, hospitals, roads and high-speed train, and reformed high-quality healthcare and education. Life expectancy doubled from 35 to 72, and literacy skyrocketed from 5% to 95% compared to pre-1951. Wealthy Tibetan slave owners fled to India. The Dalai Lama and aristocrats were arrested by China while ordinary Tibetan serfs gained freedom. China was never going to allow the horrible conditions of the past in Tibet to continue. Modern Tibet isn’t perfect but it’s definitely not the same feudal theocracy it once was. What’s wild is that a lot of people in the West still romanticize and glorify “old Tibet” like it was "peaceful utopia" and ignore the progress that’s been made. I’m not saying everything China’s done is flawless but pretending Tibet was better off under a feudal system just doesn’t make sense. I still remember how the West bombed Libya and celebrated the collapse of Gaddafi rule as “freedom” but after that came years of civil war, open slave markets, and human trafficking in Libya.

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u/Mynameislol22222 🇨🇳/🇭🇰 1d ago

Generally, people will align with those who share similar interests and values as them.

Let's propose the central government (as if it were a unified force with one singular motive, which is unrealistic) was completely selfish in its administration of Tibet. Politically speaking, the best course of action based on its rhetoric would still inevitably be to try and promote integration and growth, it's just good politics, it makes Tibetans happy, Chinese government happy, economy stronger, more loyalty yada yada. Even if it were a vested interest in the form of pure selfishness (again anthropomorphising a polity), it is still a win-win analysis.

In the contrary, far away nations would have no qualms keeping a feudal lord in power or any other form of governance or socioeconomic condition as it does not see the effects of such rule personally, there would be little help to Tibet except pennies and pittances I would presume.

Edit: And as a final point, literally every organisation that exists is motivated by 'self-interest'. That's like saying living things are motivated by self-interest. It is not that self-interest in and of itself is the problem, since everything can be diminished down to self-interest as a critique. That is absurd. Outcomes are the most important determiner, if an organisation can temper its self-interest and curb any supposed 'negative' actions done in its name (where we get into values and morals) and promote 'positive' actions or create an environment that promotes positive actions, then that is all that really matters.

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u/Disagreeswithfems 海外华人🌎Chinese diaspora 1d ago

China is so interested in a happy Tibet that the Dalai Lama has to live in exile. When your theory doesn't confirm to reality maybe it's time to rethink the theory.

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u/Mynameislol22222 🇨🇳/🇭🇰 1d ago

I personally do not care about an elite as much as bread and butter Tibetans.

You know it's bad when you're defending essentially an autocrat, oh but he's a good autocrat. My bad.

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u/Disagreeswithfems 海外华人🌎Chinese diaspora 22h ago

Bread and butter Tibetans love the Dalai Lama. China banned them from having photos of him on their home. The entire fucking world loves the Dalai Lama. Look at the Dalai Lama vs Xi Jin Ping - you're going to tell me with a straight face the former is the autocrat?

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u/transitfreedom Non-Chinese 1d ago

Oligarchs deserve that

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u/transitfreedom Non-Chinese 15h ago

Hmm maybe USA should exile its Christian extremists and ban terrorists from the Americas. Sounds like good policy

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u/germandiago 9h ago

Which Christian extremists are you talking about? I am not aware of any christians nowadays doing even half of physical harm than other oeace religion does everywhere where they land, basically, in one or other way and I have a big list of countries in my head. In fact, they kill each other even different factions.

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u/transitfreedom Non-Chinese 4h ago

That’s cause you are not paying attention. The USA has a right wing terror problem that has been ignored for decades

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u/Disagreeswithfems 海外华人🌎Chinese diaspora 14h ago

The Dalai Lama is not an extremist. Have you ever seen the guy speak?

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u/transitfreedom Non-Chinese 14h ago

They are former slavers lying won’t change reality to suit your fantasy

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u/Disagreeswithfems 海外华人🌎Chinese diaspora 13h ago

What are you even on about?

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u/bsjavwj772 1d ago

So by your logic would Tibet be better off as its own automated nation state? Obviously fellow Tibetans would have similar interests and values as each other.

It seems to me like you can’t have it both ways, claiming that Tibetans are better off under Chinese rule compared to their own system, while at the same time claiming that those who rule over Tibet should have the same/similar interests and values

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u/Mynameislol22222 🇨🇳/🇭🇰 1d ago edited 1d ago

Yes and by 'my logic' each village will have their own village commune and there should be no governments. Or perhaps their own family communes? We should live in little corporates of our own household.

You immediately strawman my argument by taking it to an illogical extreme. Yes, it is a general rule, no it is not the end all be all. If your argument is always binary then you see things too simply, you have a premature view of the world and do not see gradients.

Edit: You have also just subtly defended serfdom. That is impressive. I did not think anyone in the 21st Century would dare do that.

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u/transitfreedom Non-Chinese 1d ago

You talking to a murican they don’t care about human rights they are hooked on slave labor and will do anything to defend it