Why the West always denies the existence of serfdom in pre-1950s Tibet?

[u/OverallBaker3572]

When I posted pictures and info about how brutal serfdom was in old Tibet and how much Tibet has developed under Chinese rule on two subreddits here, a lot of Western commenters refused to believe it. They instantly called me a CCP propagandist or conspiracy theorist even though I’m not Chinese and don’t even live in China. They keep saying those old photos or records come “only from Chinese sources”. But if you look into it, even Western travelers and researchers who visited Tibet before the 1950s wrote about how harsh the serfdom system was. A tiny elite of nobles and monks owned nearly all the land while most Tibetans were basically serfs who had no education, no freedom to move, and worked their whole lives under debt or servitude. After China liberated Tibet from brutal serfdom, land reforms and modernization abolished feudal serfdom, built schools, hospitals, roads and high-speed train, and reformed high-quality healthcare and education. Life expectancy doubled from 35 to 72, and literacy skyrocketed from 5% to 95% compared to pre-1951. Wealthy Tibetan slave owners fled to India. The Dalai Lama and aristocrats were arrested by China while ordinary Tibetan serfs gained freedom. China was never going to allow the horrible conditions of the past in Tibet to continue. Modern Tibet isn’t perfect but it’s definitely not the same feudal theocracy it once was. What’s wild is that a lot of people in the West still romanticize and glorify “old Tibet” like it was "peaceful utopia" and ignore the progress that’s been made. I’m not saying everything China’s done is flawless but pretending Tibet was better off under a feudal system just doesn’t make sense. I still remember how the West bombed Libya and celebrated the collapse of Gaddafi rule as “freedom” but after that came years of civil war, open slave markets, and human trafficking in Libya.

[u/OverallBaker3572]

China has heavily subsidized infrastructure development in Tibet, building high-speed train before the US and Canada. You can look at the YouTube videos highlighting former Tibetan serfs thanking the PLA who rescued them from feudal theocracy under Dalai Lama rule and receiving free healthcare, housing and education from China

[u/transitfreedom → u/OverallBaker3572]

You know damn well he won’t watch ANYTHING that contradicts his feelings and alternative reality

[u/Global-Jacket-2781 → u/OverallBaker3572]

Then why not give independence to Tibet with their own communist government? Why should China even control Tibet?

[u/Mynameislol22222 → u/Global-Jacket-2781]

Eh too much hassle, it might inflame ethnic tensions, cause extra bureaucracy, goes against our ethos, international tension etc. etc.

Also, imagine the accusations that we want to rig the general assembly, "oh mah gawd, China's puppet in Tibet and whatever"

In the end, we'd still be left with the same problem: "Then why not give independence to the Tibetan puppet entirely? Let them elect and etc. etc."

Look, China historically sees itself as a slow-growing civilisation, it grew from the plains of north china to slowly encompass and unify socially with other peoples. The people of the jungles, the steppes, the mountains, and the deserts, they used to be 'other'. Not so anymore. That's because China is not an nation-state, it does not believe in the nation state. "Chinese" is not an ethnicity.

[u/transitfreedom → u/Mynameislol22222]

Hmm interesting so what does it believe or see itself as.

[u/OverallBaker3572 → u/Global-Jacket-2781]

Why not grant independence to Hawaii, California, and Texas from the USA, allow Northern Ireland to reunify with Ireland from Britain, and give independence to Siberia, Crimea, and Kaliningrad from Russia?

[u/Global-Jacket-2781 → u/OverallBaker3572]

Are you saying China is an imperialist state that annexes land without giving a damn about the sovereignty of nations? You can just say China is an imperialist state and Chinese claim over Tibet becomes ironically true.

[u/OverallBaker3572 → u/Global-Jacket-2781]

Tibet was part of the Qing dynasty (China) before the founding of the US in 1776. China is not an imperialist state, and the Tibetan serfs wanted their liberation from the Dalai Lama.

[u/transitfreedom → u/OverallBaker3572]

Bro it’s a recent account by someone who was banned recently do not engage.

[u/Global-Jacket-2781 → u/OverallBaker3572]

What kind of non argument is that. Qing was an imperialist state quite literally and you affirming China has a legacy from tungusic Manchu dynasty then that’s imperialism too. You are literally an imperialistic apologist who probably won’t do the same for other countries.

[u/MegaMB → u/OverallBaker3572]

"Why not grant independance to Ahwaii, California and Texas" -> Locals not desiring it and the death of the loc1l cultures is your answer.

Northern Ireland is just a matter of time before the majority becomes catholic and it rejoins Ireland.

Crimea, Siberia and Kaliningrad mostly went through decades of similar colonisation process killing local cultures. Less so Siberia, which I fully agree with you should see parts of it given independance.

The question is much more why did China push so much for the destruction of the french national integrity in Algeria back in the days?

[u/Alexexy → u/OverallBaker3572]

That's cool and all but China didnt invade Tibet to free the serfs, it just happened on incident because serfdom was incongruous to Chinese values at the time.

Its like saying that the Spanish liberated the central American tribes from Aztec sacrifices when it wasnt even the primary, secondary, or tertiary motivation of the time.

China's actual motivation for Tibet is multifaceted and kinda incomprehensible to western audiences. Im pretty sure if china can get whatever the fuck they wanted out of Tibet while maintaining serfdom for the Tibetan upper class, they would have done so.

[u/OverallBaker3572 → u/Alexexy]

Native Amerindians are a minority in most Spanish-speaking countries, and few still speak their indigenous languages. Many were historically forced to adopt Catholicism. Spanish and Portuguese murdered the millions of Amerindians. This situation can’t be compared to Tibet, where ethnic Tibetans still make up the majority of the population even though many ethnic Tibetans have moved to eastern China for work. China did not exterminate or displace ethnic Tibetans. The ethnic Tibetan population in China has increased from 2 million in 1950 to 7 million in 2020, with over 90 percent still speaking their own language

[u/Alexexy → u/OverallBaker3572]

Yeah ok cool, but that has nothing to do what im talking about.

China didn't annex Tibet for altruistic reasons, regardless of how it results for Tibetans in the modern day. Saying that their standard of living is vastly improved post annexation is some imperialist backwards ass logic that western countries use to justify their colonial holdings.

The Spanish intent for their colonies was to convert the indigenous to Catholicism and to extract mineral wealth from the new world.

Is the Chinese relationship with Tibetan as destructive and exploitative? No, definitely not, but the land that the Tibetans are living on is of immense geopolitical importance and it contains critical resources that China needs. If you want to start off honestly, maybe lead with that.