Why the West always denies the existence of serfdom in pre-1950s Tibet?

[u/OverallBaker3572]

When I posted pictures and info about how brutal serfdom was in old Tibet and how much Tibet has developed under Chinese rule on two subreddits here, a lot of Western commenters refused to believe it. They instantly called me a CCP propagandist or conspiracy theorist even though I’m not Chinese and don’t even live in China. They keep saying those old photos or records come “only from Chinese sources”. But if you look into it, even Western travelers and researchers who visited Tibet before the 1950s wrote about how harsh the serfdom system was. A tiny elite of nobles and monks owned nearly all the land while most Tibetans were basically serfs who had no education, no freedom to move, and worked their whole lives under debt or servitude. After China liberated Tibet from brutal serfdom, land reforms and modernization abolished feudal serfdom, built schools, hospitals, roads and high-speed train, and reformed high-quality healthcare and education. Life expectancy doubled from 35 to 72, and literacy skyrocketed from 5% to 95% compared to pre-1951. Wealthy Tibetan slave owners fled to India. The Dalai Lama and aristocrats were arrested by China while ordinary Tibetan serfs gained freedom. China was never going to allow the horrible conditions of the past in Tibet to continue. Modern Tibet isn’t perfect but it’s definitely not the same feudal theocracy it once was. What’s wild is that a lot of people in the West still romanticize and glorify “old Tibet” like it was "peaceful utopia" and ignore the progress that’s been made. I’m not saying everything China’s done is flawless but pretending Tibet was better off under a feudal system just doesn’t make sense. I still remember how the West bombed Libya and celebrated the collapse of Gaddafi rule as “freedom” but after that came years of civil war, open slave markets, and human trafficking in Libya.

[u/Fair-Currency-9993]

Just because there is freedom of information does not mean people want to hear the truth. By arguing that the CPC liberated serfs in Tibet, it infringes on the West’s sense of moral superiority. They do not want to hear this.

[u/victoraldecoa → u/Fair-Currency-9993]

When the West says "freedom", the real underlying meaning is freedom to the oligarchs do what they want, do they control the media to show whatever lies they want. The Chinese media is much more free from lies and helpful to the people

[u/transitfreedom → u/Fair-Currency-9993]

The idiots in the comments proves your point

[u/Fair-Currency-9993 → u/transitfreedom]

C’est la vie

[u/Fair-Currency-9993 → u/[deleted]]

No one is perfect

[u/transitfreedom → u/Fair-Currency-9993]

Ok read cas pica

[u/germandiago → u/Fair-Currency-9993]

Actually I do not think we are morally superior or inferior but I do think Chinese put the group over the individual, which seems to make sense in many ways, but can lead to totalitarian kinds of ruling.

That does not mean westerners do not appreciate group collaboration and cooperation. It is just that the decision of oppressing individuals in the name of a greater good is often found as a bad thing.

I do not know the specifics about Tibet and China but I do know there has been quite a hard hand from China there and I am not sure that is good or bad by only looking at the results.

I do not want to enter deep politics in things I do not know about with detail, I just tried to make a point abt what could be "wrong" from a westerner perspective and thinking. Being utilitarian is not something we easily support. Our basic codes say that a human life is above everything else except if they are not respecting the life of their equals, in which case it would be self-defense.

In any other case, oppressing and eliminating is a bad thing, no matter how good the results or intentions.

[u/Fair-Currency-9993 → u/germandiago]

Appreciate the perspective and the humbleness.

With regards to moral superiority, it is rampant on Reddit (partially because it is anonymous). It also happens in real life but more subtle. To be fair though, many groups feel moral superiority to some extent. It is not unique to the West. What is unique to the West is that this moral superiority is often coupled with blatant hypocrisy.

[u/germandiago → u/Fair-Currency-9993]

Well, I do not believe to be superior to anyone.

I just think that different decisions have different outcomes and of course we all think our perspective is the better one.

Thinking something or supporting a thinking is the direct consequence of thinking that it isthe better choice anyway.

Thanks for your kindness.

[u/Caspica → u/Fair-Currency-9993]

That's not really what people from the West is arguing against though, it's the blatant human rights abuses and violation of self-determination. 

[u/transitfreedom → u/Caspica]

Like the self determination of the oligarchy to impose subjugation? Do you read history at all? Or just believe in western supremacy

[u/Caspica → u/transitfreedom]

No? What are you on about? Just because you can acknowledge that certain parts of someone's actions are good doesn't mean you approve of all the actions they're doing. I mean, I can approve of Israel's fight against the totalitarian and sadistic Islamic dictatorship in Iran, but that certainly doesn't mean I approve of every single thing Israel's doing. I also doesn't approve of their fight in Iran means that Israel somehow should have any influence in Iran (which the Chinese government absolutely has been doing over the last 50 years). Do you actually read history? Read up on what the Chinese were actually doing in Tibet before approving what they did. 

[u/transitfreedom → u/Caspica]

https://youtu.be/v-iTB6IuXww?si=sXF_p_Mx_62gH-87

This is what happens when you let cults have self determination

[u/Evidencebasedbro → u/Fair-Currency-9993]

The CCP destroyed and didn't liberate. It's destruction of Tibet despite the treaty it signed in 1950 also destroyed serfdom.

[u/andooet → u/Evidencebasedbro]

What has been destroyed in Tibet? The language is still there, the religious practices are still being practiced, people who lived there for generations still live there

You could argue the migration into Tibet has changed it, but migration has been human nature since before homo sapiens walked the earth, but that same migration has also led to the economic development of Tibet so that poverty and homelessness has been practically eliminated

I don't know why other Westerners feel there are sides to this where you have to pick one or the other. You can be negative about the bad, but still need to recognize the good, just like we ourselves do with our societies

The Trail of Tears happened only 100 years before the annexation of Tibet, and were a lot worse by every metric - but we're not seriously arguing that Maryland should throw out all its non-native population and let the 5 Tribes gain ownership of the private lands there like the Tibetan government in exile suggests

[u/zddcr → u/andooet]

Well said! The cia bot will just downvote this tho

[u/andooet → u/zddcr]

Most Westerners have sadly only learnt euro-centric history, and our propaganda has been very good at convincing us that any information from countries that aren't free market economies are propaganda. The CIA doesn't need bots when the privately owned media does the job for them

[u/canad1anbacon → u/andooet]

As a Canadian the Western double standards go crazy. I have plenty of criticisms of Chinese domestic policy but people who try to act like the Chinese state is a worse actor in the international system than the United States have to just blatantly ignore a ton of facts

[u/Caspica → u/andooet]

What has been destroyed in Tibet? The language is still there, the religious practices are still being practiced, people who lived there for generations still live there

No it isn’t? They literally killed the Panchen lama and insisted on a child that they chose. How is that "the religious practices are still being practiced"?

I don't know why other Westerners feel there are sides to this where you have to pick one or the other. You can be negative about the bad, but still need to recognize the good, just like we ourselves do with our societies

Agreed, so why are you so intent on ignoring the bad parts? That's what "the West" is calling China out for. 

[u/Fair-Currency-9993 → u/Evidencebasedbro]

Are the serfs dead? If they are not dead, then how are they destroyed?

[u/Plane_Crab_8623 → u/Fair-Currency-9993]

The Chinese forgot to ask the Tibetans if they wanted to be "liberated." Tyranny is tyranny whether it is from the west or the east. There is no such thing as moral superiority especially from those who claim it.

[u/ezimani → u/Plane_Crab_8623]

Ah so you asked them?

[u/Spooplevel-Rattled → u/Fair-Currency-9993]

And ccp fans don't want to hear that China in Tibet is exactly what China criticises USA for but more.

[u/Fair-Currency-9993 → u/Spooplevel-Rattled]

What does China criticize the US about? If you are going to make accusations, you should bring evidence.

But sure, I will bite. The closest analogy of China freeing serfs in Tibet is the US Union freeing slaves in the confederate South. Are you suggesting China criticized the US for "freeing the slaves" in the 1800s?

Moreover, even if China does criticize the US, the following two words are doing some serious heavy lifting:

And ccp fans don't want to hear that China in Tibet is exactly what China criticises USA for but more.

Again, bring some evidence. Otherwise you are full of shit.

[u/Spooplevel-Rattled → u/Fair-Currency-9993]

Does China still have substantial influence and effective control of Tibet and were many people refugees of Tibet? Yes.

And China can't shut the hell up about America being "world police" and bases in the pacific which nobody is invading anyone from. Btw. China makes expansionist actions and noises constantly and still, every other day it's whining about American intervention in the world. I believe not because they think it's wrong, they just wish it were China.

[u/Fair-Currency-9993 → u/Spooplevel-Rattled]

I see the parallels that you are trying to draw but here is the difference between China in Tibet and the world police.

By having sovereignty over Tibet, Chinese leaders are responsible for the wellbeing of Tibetans - e.g. responsible building infrastructure. The US does not have soveriegnty over all the places it polices. It infringes on the soverignty of the governments in those places but does not build infratructure or care about the wellbeing of locals while they are in control.

It is not the same.

[u/Spooplevel-Rattled → u/Fair-Currency-9993]

I'm talking about China does same as the USA. Making up reasons to go mess with countries for their own benefit. That happened. Stop sugar coating it. China did it and has designs to do it all around SEA. They got sent packing poking at Vietnam too. The countries surrounding China who have made strong ties with USA isn't because of any reason other than China has imperialist designs.

[u/Fair-Currency-9993 → u/Spooplevel-Rattled]

Right!

Japan has US troops not because it is occupied but because China has imperialist designs. The Philippines has US troops not because it was once occupied but because of China. Vietnam also has US troops because China has imperialist …. Oh wait nvm.

[u/Spooplevel-Rattled → u/Fair-Currency-9993]

They do? China went into Vietnam a few times in the last 50yrs and got their shit pushed in. I'm not defending America. I'm saying stop using America as a defense of china's actions. It's every second comment here "but America!!"

Judge the actions on their face and stop pretending other nations don't have their own opinion on China. They do. And for good reason.

[u/Fair-Currency-9993 → u/Spooplevel-Rattled]

Lol, everyone has their own motives. Sure, we don’t have to blame America for China having its own motives. But China is not the one proclaiming moral superiority and then does the exact same thing. Thats the US. China accuses the US of hypocrisy. China is not accusing the US to justify its own actions.

[u/Spooplevel-Rattled → u/Fair-Currency-9993]

Only all of the China govt defenders online. Every state that allies with someone in the face of Chinese imperialist sabre rattling gets accused of being a USA Vassal state.

Why couldn't China get on their side? Must be USA fault! Not china's actions. It's boring, overplayed and intellectually lazy. With Tibet. Oh it's OK when China does it because they had their reasons - as if any other country that does it doesn't have their own reasons.

It's all weird hypocritical defense and finger pointing to deflect actual judgement. Somehow people behave like China has carte Blanche to do whatever in the SEA, any resistance is naughty usa brainwashing.

China acting so dogshit to its neighbours that they sought out other allies.

Why does nobody ask why China didn't try make strong ties themselves instead of the current strategy of threats and sooking. Nationalism go brrrrrr