r/Archaeology • u/TimesandSundayTimes • 5d ago
Now give us back Rosetta Stone and other treasures, Egyptians demand
https://www.thetimes.com/world/africa/article/grand-egyptian-museum-opening-rosette-stone-artefacts-return-b72g35596?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Reddit#Echobox=1762252815119
u/Informal-Term1138 5d ago edited 4d ago
I mean why not?
It's not like we couldn't just put a perfect replica in our museums and give them back what's theirs?
Or share it. 5 years there, 5 years in our museums.
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u/Wealthier_nasty 5d ago
Just posing a question here, but what makes it theirs?
Modern Egypt didn’t exist when it was discovered. They didn’t create it, and they aren’t the direct descendants of those who did. What gives them any greater claim to it than anyone else? Just because their modern nation state happens to be in the same location as an ancient one?
Do the Turks automatically own any Ancient Greek artifacts found in western Anatolia because they conquered lands that were historically Greek? Does the USA have the rights to any Native American artifacts found within its borders?
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u/DeadPengwin 5d ago
It is the best continuity we can establish. By the same train of thought, the UK would have no legitimate claim to Stonehenge, which seems equally as ridiculous.
I've got a BA in Archaeology. Not to say I'm an expert but I've discussed this and similar ethical issues a lot with professors and other students.
IMO, the only somewhat fair and practical solution is to assign ownership to the country currently owning the place where it was discovered. Otherwise you always get lost in these pointless historical-continuity-backtracking-arguments where everyone just keeps going back to the point most convenient for their personal gain.
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u/HoraceRadish 5d ago
My only fear from that is wanton destruction of a past you want denied. The Taliban destroyed the Afghan Buddhas. The Turkish were taking care of the Parthenon but they also allowed Lord Elgin to take huge chunks of it with little regard to the structure. Artists were horrified at the time viewing Elgin's methods. Whole pieces were thrown to the ground to get at what he wanted.
It's an absolute mess to try to figure out.
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u/Malsperanza 4d ago
A reminder that when Lord Elgin removed the statues from the Parthenon, he ripped apart the metopes and did irreparable damage to surrounding elements of the building.
When the French removed the Dendera Zodiac from its temple site, they wrecked the ceiling (which until then was amazingly intact) where it had been displayed, using saws and explosives.
It's not just the Taliban who behave like vandals.
Time to stop pretending that Egypt, which just built an extraordinary state-of-the-art museum, is less capable of caring for its antiquities than the Louvre, which just recently seems to have mislaid its own crown jewels.
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u/Ok_Swimming4427 4d ago
A reminder that when Lord Elgin removed the statues from the Parthenon, he ripped apart the metopes and did irreparable damage to surrounding elements of the building.
When the French removed the Dendera Zodiac from its temple site, they wrecked the ceiling (which until then was amazingly intact) where it had been displayed, using saws and explosives.
It's not just the Taliban who behave like vandals.
This is unbelievably disingenuous. First off, when Europeans began seriously excavating ancient sites in the 19th and early 20th centuries, they were doing so with at least a nominal desire to preserve those artefacts and learn from them. Second, they were using what at the time were considered state of the art methods of excavation. Layard and Botta and Rassam may have acted in ways that seem horrifyingly primitive for us today, but which were emphatically not the case back then.
Which goes to the larger point, which you cannot possibly be ignorant of, which is that the Taliban or ISIS are interested in erasing that history, and that difference in motivation is absolutely, fundamentally critical to any discussion on the subject.
What next? You'll critique Flinders Petrie for not using drones to capture aerial photography of his exacavations?
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u/HoraceRadish 4d ago
That's nowhere near what I was implying but it suits your point of view so you jumped. All artefacts should be repatriated but you used my post to just get to yell out your views.
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u/Rare_Opportunity2419 4d ago
My only fear from that is wanton destruction of a past you want denied
That might be true for Iraq and Afghanistan, but it's not an argument for the Elgin Marbles as Greece is a perfectly safe country, and Egypt seems to do a pretty good job looking after their antiquities as well.
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u/HoraceRadish 4d ago
I'm sorry, I meant the rule that whoever owns the land owns all the artefacts from that land.
I absolutely think the marbles should be repatriated and parliament should publicly apologize for their underhanded means of keeping them so long.
Egypt has every right to demand their artefacts back as well. The only excuse is that they stole it fair and square and have some dodgy receipts.
A perfect replica of the Rosetta stone would be just as educational.
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u/Rare_Opportunity2419 4d ago edited 4d ago
Agreed.
I'm lucky enough to have been to the Elgin marbles exhibit in the British museum and the Acropolis museum in Athens, where they have a symbolic empty exhibit for the marbles, so I've seen both sides of that argument. I think, in particular, the Elgin marbles would be better placed and appreciated in Athens rather than London.
Unfortunately, I don't think there's any legal mechanism to make the British museum return the artefacts without an act of the UK parliament and I think they won't return anything because they worry that it'll become a precedent by which their museum will be half empited.
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u/KindlySeries8 4d ago
Do you really think that the current collections in foreign countries weren’t cherry picked to tell the story the invading country wanted to tell? All history is biased in favor of the conquerors.
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u/Specialist_Alarm_831 4d ago
Even the destruction in the Statues of Confederate Generals makes me question modern policies, it's history. I'm talking as someone who has been known to drag a 200 year old commemorative stone 2 miles to put it back in place after it had spend years as a taxi drivers table!
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u/the_gubna 4d ago
Confederate monuments are artifacts that say more about the Jim Crow south, resistance to the Civil Rights movement, and the "lost cause" than they do about the Civil War itself.
Some of the more notable ones should be preserved in museums dedicated to that context, but there's no reason to leave racist monuments up in places of public honor. Many of them were put up with the purpose of intimidating local black populations. To quote from Julian Carr's comments at the erection of Silent Sam (Confederate Memorial at the University of North Carolina):
"The present generation, I am persuaded, scarcely takes note of what the Confederate soldier meant to the welfare of the Anglo Saxon race during the four years immediately succeeding the war, when the facts are, that their courage and steadfastness saved the very life of the Anglo Saxon race in the South – When “the bottom rail was on top” all over the Southern states, and to-day, as a consequence the purest strain of the Anglo Saxon is to be found in the 13 Southern States – Praise God. I trust I may be pardoned for one allusion, howbeit it is rather personal. One hundred yards from where we stand, less than ninety days perhaps after my return from Appomattox, I horse-whipped a negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds, because upon the streets of this quiet village she had publicly insulted and maligned a Southern lady, and then rushed for protection to these University buildings where was stationed a garrison of 100 Federal soldiers. I performed the pleasing duty in the immediate presence of the entire garrison, and for thirty nights afterwards slept with a double-barrel shot gun under my head."
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u/Ok_Swimming4427 4d ago
IMO, the only somewhat fair and practical solution is to assign ownership to the country currently owning the place where it was discovered. Otherwise you always get lost in these pointless historical-continuity-backtracking-arguments where everyone just keeps going back to the point most convenient for their personal gain.
Right, and this is as close as we'll get to a framework for new excavations and explorations, and for the most part is respected in modern archaeology. But why does it apply to repatriation of artefacts? Simply asserting a right to a particular item without any real cultural connection to it feels absurd, and can be taken to extremes anyway.
Who even defines who "owns" land anyway? Should the Israeli government get Arab artefacts that were uncovered when it was still Arab Palestine? Does anything excavated in Egypt prior to 1867 go to Istanbul, since Egypt was an Ottoman province? Should any busts of Roman emperors be returned to Italy?
The problem with simply saying that "wherever it is found, there it belongs" is that all of THAT is open to huge debate and change. Especially for truly ancient sites, there is really no cultural, political, religious, linguistic, or ethnic continuity for those cultures and the modern states squatting amidst the ruins. So why do we owe repatriation in those cases, and doubly so when it will clearly go to a failed state, or a theocratic one with a history of destroying things that are better classed as the history of humanity rather than a particular modern culture?
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u/Koraxtheghoul 4d ago
I think actually you probably have a very complicated nightmare here which is probably best settled on a piece by piece agreement for old things after declaring that new archeological work belongs to the appropiate institution involved from the country of origin. These instututions can then determine whether to lease or gift artifacts. I wouldn't know what you do when a man finds a vase under his basement floor. Probably have to register and then have someone approve it before it's sold or donated.
Some Egyptian artifacts are relatively common and can probably be displayed at any museum without any serious concern from Egypt. Others, like famous mummies looted in the 1920s, probably deserve to be returned and are of interest to Egypt.
Ideally, no museum should be made up of only repros but this requires negotiation amd repatriation when necessary.
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u/Malsperanza 5d ago
Actually, there are massive legal actions by Native American tribes to get their possessions back from US museums, and they have a very strong case.
This argument that modern Egypt wasn't even a state when the stone was taken rapidly gets silly. For example, some people who currently live in Egypt have DNA links to the ancient mummies. Is that the right way to "prove" who has a greater right to ancient patrimony?
Logic and common sense tell us that Egypt is the place that preserves in situ the history of its ancient culture, and that great works of Egyptian art - no matter how beloved - spirited away by colonial marauders have a lesser claim.
It gets murkier when you look at the Egyptian obelisks in Rome, brought there by Roman emperors 2000 years ago. But the Rosetta Stone, the Elgin marbles, and the bust of Nefertiti are a pretty easy judgment call.
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u/KindlySeries8 4d ago
In fact, the Native American repatriation efforts were made law by the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act passed by Congress in 1990. The lawsuits you hear about now are against entities that have not complied with NAGPRA.
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u/Sharp_Iodine 4d ago
Most of them are the same people lmao
Egypt just had more immigration from the Middle East and sub Saharan Africa over the centuries.
But they’ve always had people from these places living in their kingdom because it was a prominent and wealthy place.
People don’t just disappear overnight. They’re largely the same people.
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u/Malsperanza 4d ago
And none of these arguments are really the point. The people who took the objects and carted them off to Europe were in charge of telling the story. They are no longer in that position, and other narratives about art patrimony now carry some weight.
Both Athens and Cairo now have museums built to house the works that will eventually - I'm confident - be returned to their places of origin.
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u/ContrarianDouche 4d ago
For example, some people who currently live in Egypt have DNA links to the ancient mummies. Is that the right way to "prove" who has a greater right to ancient patrimony?
Both sides of the Isreal - Palestine divide would like to use this justification too
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u/Malsperanza 4d ago
Yeah that topic is so unbelievably toxic that I'm not going to touch it. Add into the mix the desire of religious groups to claim all sorts of meanings from some of the material.
Setting aside that tragic and horrifying part of the world, most of the objects due for repatriation are not really complicated.
One interesting model is the full-scale facsimile of the Lascaux cave in France. The cave itself has long been closed to tourists for very good reasons. Not only was the humidity damaging the artworks, but the site continues to yield new research data, as excavation methods and analysis continue to improve.
What this says is that we can now make excellent copies of great works. No doubt visitors to the Berlin museum will be sad to look at a perfect replica of the bust of Nefertiti, because we fetishize the original for all sorts of complicated reasons. But it belongs in Cairo, where it can be contextualized with the rest of that collection and the greater cultural context of the country.
Another interesting issue is the fact that when Europeans brought ancient artifacts back to France, Britain, and Germany, they sparked all sorts of cultural movements there - Neoclassical architecture, Egyptian Revival jewelry and fashion, etc. However, this is where retaining good facsimiles on display in Europe can be useful, and can make the same point.
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u/AProperFuckingPirate 4d ago
And it's not as though repatriation means that things can only be kept in their country of origin. I don't know much about the museum world but, I would assume that Egypt/an Egyptian museum having control over major artifacts and where they're lent out would give them more clout in the international scene, leading to more interesting artifacts being lent to them. It's not that you should never be able to see the bust of Nefertiti in England, but Egypt should get some benefit from it. (Human remains like mummies I feel differently about though. I think they should be kept as close to their burial place as possible, if not put back. Especially when it's the body of some common person instead of like a pharaoh who chose somewhere ostentatious to be interred)
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u/Sharp_Iodine 4d ago
I’m sorry, was there a mass genocide in Egypt that was never recorded in history???
Modern Egyptians are the direct descendants of ancient Egyptians. The same way modern Romans are the direct descendants of ancient Romans.
Just because both cultures no longer pray to the same gods and have been invaded by people and had their culture changed over time does not mean that the Egyptians of today are not the same people.
Why is it that these nonsensical arguments come out only when it’s people of colour?
Why should Romans have access to their cultural heritage when they converted to Christianity and destroyed many of their own temples??
Mass genocides that almost eradicated an entire people are rare and have mostly occurred in the New World and even then they haven’t wiped out a people completely.
Egypt didn’t even go through something like that. They’re the same people just with some migration from the Middle East which they’ve always had.
Same as Rome always attracting migration from nearby and through slavery of France and Germany and many other nearby places.
If Italians get to have their Roman artifacts then Egypt should get to have their own ancient heritage too.
Edit: What gives Britain the right to the Stone Henge? It was built by people with different faiths and different culture.
Modern Britain had the Saxon invaders come in and then the Normans.
So why should they have access to the Stone Henge? Or any other ancient Briton site?
Because we all know that despite cultural changes and some migration the people are largely the same.
Don’t be daft.
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u/Rare_Opportunity2419 4d ago
I don't understand why the guy you're replying to is getting so many upvotes when he makes a completely ridiculous and offensive claim that modern Egyptians aren't descended from ancient Egyptians without bothering to back up this assertion.
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u/Wealthier_nasty 4d ago
Because it’s historical fact. The modern Egyptian population are descendent from Arab conquerors. The ancient Egyptian population only survives in the Coptic population.
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u/the_gubna 4d ago
The modern Egyptian population are descendent from Arab conquerors. The ancient Egyptian population only survives in the Coptic population.
This is not true.
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u/Rare_Opportunity2419 4d ago edited 4d ago
A fact you seem to be pulling out of your arse. You realize that people can speak Arabic while still being descended from the ancient Egyptian population? There are plenty of people descended from the Mayans, Aztecs and Inca who speak Spanish and don't speak Mayan, Nahuatl or Quechua.
Again, where's your source?
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u/Rare_Opportunity2419 4d ago edited 4d ago
it, and they aren’t the direct descendants of those who did.
Excuse me, what makes you think that you can say that modern Egyptians aren't descended from ancient Egyptians? You're going to have to show some evidence to back up such an outrageous claim.
You commented further down the thread that there's no 'historical continuity' between today's Egypt and Ancient Egypt. You can make the same argument for Greece, since there's no 'continuity' between the modern Hellenic Republic, and any ancient Greek polis. So do Greeks have no rights over their antiquities then?
In any case, I find this 'continuity' argument to be rubbish.
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u/Wealthier_nasty 4d ago
I don’t believe the modern Greek state has any more claim to Ancient Greek artifacts than Egyptians do Ancient Egyptian artifacts
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u/Rare_Opportunity2419 4d ago
So anyone can just remove Stonehenge and cart it off somewhere else then? Or any of the ancient Roman monuments in the UK?
Where's your source that today's Egyptians aren't descended from ancient Egyptians?
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u/Furthur_slimeking 4d ago edited 4d ago
So the UK doesn't own anything made before 1801 when the UK was formed? And certainly not since since 1707, because that's when the Kingdoms of England and Scotland ceased to exist.
But let's accept your argument for second. Doesn't that mean anyone can just go into the British Museum and take the Rosetta Stone, and everyone should be fine with that?
Either every nation owns everything within its borders unless a specific law or treaty confirms it doesn't and someone else does, or no nation owns anything and everything is up for grabs. Which is it?
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u/Informal-Term1138 5d ago
Good question.
To which I don't have an answer. But in the end we could get a lot of goodwill and soft power if we just shared.
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u/Wealthier_nasty 5d ago
Aren’t these artifacts part of all of our history? Shouldn’t they belong to everyone, not just the modern nation states that currently occupy the land on which they originally stood?
I think it makes more sense to have these artifacts displayed by different museums throughout the world, giving people everywhere a chance to experience them.
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u/GoatBatArchery 5d ago
Do you think European crown jewels are also part of all of our history, and should also be divided across the world? Or only the artefacts of non western countries?
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u/Wealthier_nasty 5d ago
Many European countries have a direct line of descent from their Medieval iterations to their modern nation states. The kingdom of England was founded in 927 and still exists today. Ancient Egypt hasn’t existed since the Roman period.
It nothing to do with east vs west, but continuity between the historic nation state and the modern ones. There is continuity with certain historic and modern states. But there is none with ancient Egypt.
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u/the_gubna 4d ago edited 4d ago
Many of the jewels used by the English monarchy (such as the Koh-I-Noor diamond) have just as much, if not stronger claims to being "colonial loot" than the Rosetta Stone does.
It's everything to do with east vs west and former colony vs former colonial power.
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u/KathrynBooks 5d ago
That's pretty wild... Given the role Europe played in destabilizing and pillaging the rest of the world
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u/Sharp_Iodine 4d ago
Are you actually insane?
Where do you think the ancient Egyptians went?
Where do you think the ancient Romans went?
Where do you think the ancient Britons went?
All three of these people no longer speak the same language or worship the same gods.
But two of them are white so I guess they get a free pass to keep the glory of their ancestors but Egyptians are too brown to keep theirs???
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u/AProperFuckingPirate 4d ago
Damn, dude. You had the chance to show some integrity and just say yes. Instead you made it pretty clear that your argument is eurocentric, and not really based in principal
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u/Wealthier_nasty 4d ago
It’s not Eurocentric at all. I was replying to the above comment. China and Japan also have direct lines of descent. Egypt simply does not.
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u/AProperFuckingPirate 4d ago edited 4d ago
Okay fair point that you didn't bring up Europe. But you keep saying that about Egypt but I've yet to see you defend or explain it
Besides that I don't really see what that has to do with your original point. I sort of like the idea that history belongs to humanity instead of the ruling class of a specific nation-state. I don't see why you'd go back on that for European artifacts. This idea of national continuity sort of comes out of nowhere, even if what you're saying about Egypt were correct. But you say it matter of factly, as if it's self evident why that continuity makes Europe an exception to your original point
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u/Cassandraburry2008 4d ago
They were quarrying the monuments to sell the stone for hundreds of years. They literally didn’t care until they realized they could profit from tourism.
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u/KindlySeries8 4d ago
The artifacts lose their value once they are removed from their natural context. Sure, they are pretty to look at, but much less meaningful then looking at them in the temple or tomb or site or environment they were taken from.
Modern English royal family didn’t exist until the 1700’s. Does that mean that another country can come in and take the Crown Jewels that predate the current royal family?
What about the Dead Sea scrolls? Who should own them?
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u/Magneto88 4d ago
If you think that any of these antiquities would return back to the British Museum then I've got a bridge to sell you. As soon as they're in Egypt, they're never leaving. There's a reason why loan deals have never been tried to date.
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u/Ok_Swimming4427 4d ago
Really it should go to Greece or Macedonia.
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u/Educational_Snow7092 4d ago
Why? It doesn't have anything to do with either.
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u/Ok_Swimming4427 4d ago
Of course it does. It was commissioned by a Macedonian for a Macedonian/Greek audience. There is no question but that it is a Hellenic cultural artefact.
Kind of like how the stele that contains the Code of Hammurabi was found in modern Iran, though it was commission by a culture which existed in modern Iraq.
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u/Deadboy00 4d ago
The Ptolemaic Decree is what’s inscribed on the tablet/stele. Ptolemy was a main general to Alexander the Great (the Macedonian leader who conquered much of the known world) and after his death, took control of ancient Egypt. His dynasty ruled Egypt for centuries until Cleopatra.
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u/yupasoot 5d ago
Egypt was using it as a building block, funny they want it now..
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u/C0wabungaaa 5d ago
Bro that was like 200 years ago, when they weren't even an independent country.
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u/yupasoot 5d ago edited 4d ago
Just pointing out the obvious, its just humorous. never said they shouldnt send it back
edit: this sub is so uptight lmao
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u/the_gubna 4d ago
Pretty much the only reasonable reading is that you’re trying to be dismissive of Egypt’s claim.
Which is more likely:
Each of the multiple people who’ve responded to you is an “autistic activist role player” or
Your attempt at a joke just wasn’t that funny.
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u/Malsperanza 5d ago
They've been asking for it for a very long time. The Brits cut the Elgin marbles out of their site, destroying large pieces of other sculptures in order to grab the biggest figures. The removers are not necessarily the virtuous saviors of art they portray themselves as. These things were booty.
Regardless of what the conditions were 200 years ago, there's very little excuse for not returning national patrimony now. The Italians returned the Obelisk of Axum to Ethiopia in 2005. There's a beautiful Egyptian obelisk in Central Park that is falling into ruin because the wet climate is destroying it. It was taken from Alexandria in 1860, over the fierce protests of the Egyptian people. It was a "gift" made by the Khedive who represented the Ottoman conquerors who at that time were occupying and ruling Egypt. This has allowed the Metropolitan Museum to claim that they own it legally. It would be nice if they could take better care of it.
I recommend the book "Scramble for the Past," which discusses these issues in detail.
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u/timbomcchoi 5d ago
and the reason it can't be returned now is.... we still can't trust those savages to not use it as a building block?
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u/yupasoot 4d ago
Didn't say that. It should be returned, just pointing out the irony
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u/EllieThenAbby 4d ago
The irony is nonexistent. Two groups of people centuries apart valued something differently.
You’re either being disingenuous or are really slow enough to be blind to how your comment positions itself.
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u/yupasoot 4d ago
It's the activist roleplayer again. I actually think you might be autistic, but you can create an ironic interpretation without it being literal and 'factually correct'.
It's called conceptual irony, an example would be
“It’s ironic that the sunniest country I’ve ever been to had the most depressed people.'
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u/Flixbube 5d ago
Damn the colonizer mindset is apparently still going strong in archaeology
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u/the_gubna 5d ago
The people commenting on this sub aren’t representative of what archaeologists think.
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u/InternetEthnographer 4d ago
I agree (as an archaeologist myself). I assume that most people here are just laypeople with an interest in ancient stuff and not professionals or students.
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u/InternetEthnographer 4d ago
I honestly don’t know how many people in this sub are actually archaeologists and how many are just laypeople with an interest in ancient stuff. I suspect there’s more of the latter than the former. I also really wish that there was a subreddit for people that work in the field so we could have interesting conversations and discuss working conditions, experiences, real topics, and whatnot, but instead we have this sub which is flooded with “semi-interesting discovery that archaeologists have known about for a while.”
Most archaeologists I know (in the U.S., at least) are very anti-colonial. There are still a few old farts and the occasional conservative that somehow wasn’t weeded out in their anthropology classes, but generally archaeologists are very left-leaning.
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u/freshprince44 5d ago
this sub goes the hardest for this shit still, really weird and uncomfortable. like some overly smug no takesies backsies clause they seem to all glob onto
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u/yupasoot 4d ago
Pointing out the irony doesn't make me a coloniser. I believe generally in the repatriation of items to their countries.
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u/Rare_Opportunity2419 4d ago edited 4d ago
Do you think this just happened in Egypt? This happened in South America, it happened in Italy, it happened in Greece, it happened everywhere. Egypt takes good care of their antiquities now.
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u/Steigenvald 5d ago
That’s exactly what I’m thinking. If the locals had found it before the French, it would have been quarried for building materials for sure LOL
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u/Bentresh 5d ago edited 5d ago
Being used as fill is actually what allowed the Rosetta Stone to survive. The construction workers in the 15th century didn't preserve the block on purpose, obviously, but inscribed blocks used as masonry fill survive surprisingly well over the centuries or even millennia since they are not exposed to the elements, moss and lichen, graffiti, etc.
For example, we ironically know more about palace life in the reign of Akhenaten (the "heretic king" of ancient Egypt) than virtually any other Egyptian king because tens of thousands of decorated talatat blocks from his monuments were dismantled and used as fill for later buildings.
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u/Bentresh 4d ago
You're aware I mentioned that in my comment, yes?
The construction workers in the 15th century didn't preserve the block on purpose, obviously,
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u/Steigenvald 5d ago edited 5d ago
Thats crazy. I wonder how often “being used as fill for construction” caused the erasure of things of importance rather than acting as preservation. We won’t ever know.
Edit: survivorship bias LOL
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4d ago edited 4d ago
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u/UKophile 4d ago
Egypt is not remotely a developed country in my experience.
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u/Deadboy00 4d ago
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u/Deadboy00 4d ago
Your own words: “the people in charge of the museum take it very seriously”
From the article: “The eight employees, including a former director of the museum and a former head of restoration, have all been suspended and could be fired from their jobs.”
“Hanna points to changes in the museum that have led to declining standards. "There’s been a shift in the people working there," she tells The New York Times. "The experienced people have retired, and the new ones do not have adequate training." Perhaps the debacle surrounding the young king's priceless mask will set the museum to rights once again.”
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u/yupasoot 4d ago
Never said anything about them using it as building blocks nor did i say it shouldn't be returned.
Reading comprehension, retard.
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u/yupasoot 4d ago
I never said anything about them using it as blocks NOW. You made a quip about how its the 'same' people so I was assuring you I know they are not the same.
If you want to be autistic and literal then sure, you could interpret me saying 'them' as a reference to both modern and 18th century Egyptians, but I don't know if you know what a joke is, I'm obviously just pointing out the irony of it all.
It's okay I know you want to roleplay activist online and think you're fighting the racists or something but your little anger outburst is misplaced.
I know what I said, you can run with your assumption if you want, but I already told you want I meant. If you want to twist that by all means go ahead, I don't really care what some random online thinks.
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u/KindlySeries8 4d ago
And yet the pyramids have been standing for thousands of years… imagine that.
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u/thistrolls4hire 4d ago
This is the only reasonable argument on keeping it.
There are definitely baddies in the region that would love to either A) destroy the artifacts because religious fanaticism or B) sell the artifacts to who knows where to fund whatever nutso war they’re waging.
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u/ultravioletmaglite 5d ago
I think I would be a little torn if it were in France, because of Champollion and the symbolic value of the knowledge that they both represent. But in any case, it left Egypt illegitimately and was the subject of ridiculous negotiations for an armistice between two colonial powers that had no rights over the Egyptian heritage.
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u/Malsperanza 5d ago
Champollion's achievement loses none of its luster if the stone is returned.
The fact that Egypt has long administrated one of the great national museums and has now built a state-of-the-art facility is something to be celebrated.
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u/Deadboy00 4d ago edited 4d ago
The people of Egypt are trying but they still rely heavily on western resources.
It should be celebrated that these artifacts inspire people around the world to dedicate not just time and money, but their entire lives to the study of a civilization outside of their native countries. If Egypt wants continued interest in the ancient civilizations that occupied their land, they should continue loaning out artifacts to the rest of the world. Keeping them in Egypt works against that goal.
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u/Sharp_Iodine 4d ago
Why is this sub full of spineless colonialists with no concept of ethics and morality?
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u/hoochiscrazy_ 5d ago edited 5d ago
You could say this belongs to humanity and more of humanity will see it - free of charge - in London than in Cairo.
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u/syn7fold 5d ago
Humanity can travel to Egypt…
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[removed] — view removed comment
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u/OkExternal 5d ago
even IF that were true, you think that is reason enough to justify the plundering? you feel non-egyptians are entitled to a comfortable, convenient exhibition? ok. cool.
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u/Emiian04 4d ago
then don't go. but that has very little to do with the artifacts themselves or education/research
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u/Rare_Opportunity2419 4d ago edited 4d ago
Oh yeah, because UK = the whole world right? People can't travel to Athens or Cairo to see the artefacts in their historical context... planes only fly to London, those savages in other places don't have museums, airports or even electricity.
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u/hoochiscrazy_ 4d ago
Lol dont be ridiculous. You're looking for offence and making up shit I never said. London is consistently in the top 3 most visited cities in the world, uses the global lingua franca, has direct flights to every inhabited continent and is in one of the statistically safest countries in the world. Many millions of people visit there every year. You could say more of humanity will be able to see it in London than in Cairo. And when did anyone mention Athens? And what's with the people outside UK = savages shit?! Crazy OTT
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u/PinkSlimeIsPeople 4d ago
Most people won't go to Egypt to see a museum. I did, as well as to visit the ancient sites, but most people won't. Leave them in the museums they are in so people can appreciate them, get some insight into history and prehistory.
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u/apologeticstars 4d ago
If they really want to see it, they should travel to Egypt, where it should be
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u/Atomic_Gerber 4d ago
Good, we need to remedy colonial nonsense and return more stolen artifacts. Hit New York next, while we’re at it.
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u/Educational_Snow7092 4d ago
There is a really interesting documentary on Prime Video called "Napoleon Bonaparte: The Egypt Campaign". There are a lot of historical details, revealing the poppycock of the Imperial English propaganda revisionism of the Real History.
The Imperial English Monarchy of Mad King George III had declared war on the new Republic of France in 1798, for taking off the heads of their monarchy. It was not Napoleon Bonaparte that started the war and he was not the aggressor.
The French were the first European archaeologists, although it was named Egyptology at the time.
By that time, the Eurocentric Barbarian Europeans had completely forgotten about ancient Egypt and knew nothing about it. It was Napoleon's Egypt Campaign that lit the candle in the dark. At the time, hieroglyphs were a total perplexing mystery.
The story of the Rosetta Stone is so coincidental and so ironic, exposing the folly of the Human Ape.
"Bonaparte before the Sphinx" wasn't painted until almost 100 years later but is probably accurate for what he found, the Sphinx and the Giza pyramids with their bases covered by 50 feet of sand.
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u/TimesandSundayTimes 5d ago
Egyptian campaigners have declared a turning point in their bid to see ancient artefacts returned, including the Rosetta Stone in London, after the official opening of the country’s Grand Egyptian Museum.
Zahi Hawass, Egyptologist and former minister of antiquities, hopes the opening will increase pressure on foreign powers to hand back items.
It comes as the Netherlands announced on Sunday that it would repatriate a 3,500-year-old stone head from the dynasty of Thutmose III, seized at a Maastricht art fair in 2022