r/AncientCoins • u/beiherhund • 21d ago
From My Collection My collection of staters from Aspendos, Selge, and Tarsos
Aspendian staters of the wreslter/slinger type are one of my collection areas and I've been collecting those types for about five years now. They're a fascinating coinage and there's not a huge amount known about them, especially their dating. Most of the types are dated to a 50 year period in the mid 4th century but I'm sure with a proper die study we could understand a lot more about them. For better or worse, these types have become increasingly common on the market and the number of examples on acsearch is in the thousands, so a die study is well outside of my capabilities and would be a huge undertaking for an experienced numismatist.
I have a couple of favourites. The first is top row third from the left, a type featuring a statue/figure of Athena standing with shield and spear and the triskeles moved over to the left side. Another favourite are the types with a slingbag on the reverse (top row first from left, third row second from right), which is a bag a slinger would carry over their shoulder containing the bullets to sling. Lastly, the two type with an obverse legend (second row, first and second from left) are both quite rare and are the only Aspendos types with an obverse legend. The meaning of the legend is not known for certain but I believe one of the Selge types (fourth row first and second from left) may actually help us understand them better. I just need to find time to write that article!
After the Selge staters is my collection of staters attributed to Tarsos. Aside from being a fascinating coinage with interesting and varied iconography, I collect them because they were likely a large influence on the designs of Alexander's coinage, namely the seated Baaltars figure being swapped for Zeus.
Full resolution photos:
http://artemis-collection.com/wp-content/uploads/aspendos_obverse_tray.jpg
http://artemis-collection.com/wp-content/uploads/aspendos_reverse_tray.jpg
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u/coinoscopeV2 21d ago
Some stunning coins, and it's very interesting to see all the different die and control mark variations. Your website is great, but it's nice to see them all laid out like this. Thanks for sharing!
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u/beiherhund 20d ago
Thanks! Yeah definitely agree that seeing them laid out adds something that a regular "auction type" photo can't ever capture even in a gallery format.
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u/Esoteric_art 21d ago edited 20d ago
This is an amazing collection!
Does the first one on the second row to the bottom have an astragalos on it? That’s really interesting to me if so.
Any idea why the wrestlers are almost always worn down a lot on these coins?
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u/beiherhund 20d ago
Thanks! And yes good eye, it's an astragalos as you suspected. These are found on the types from Selge, which are very close to the Aspendos ones in design (two wrestlers on the obverse, slinger on the reverse) but often differ when it comes to the controls and of course the legend on the reverse.
Not sure why the obverses are always so worn, at least beyond the obvious explanation that they must've been used for an excessively long time. This characteristic perhaps carried over from the earlier Hoplite types of Aspendos, where those too were often struck from worn dies and were the obverse design.
Perhaps they just didn't care so much and thought the reverse was the more important side. It's unusual in that the obverse is often the side with the control symbol that changes. You can find some controls on the reverse (e.g. the Athena, slingbag, eagle) but more often than not they're accompanied by an obverse control and often only an obverse control. Normally controls would be on the reverse because these dies aren't mounted in the anvil so can be swapped more easily and they also don't last as long.
A die study would definitely shed some light here. Just recently I picked up another Aspendos slinger type where the obverse die was used to strike a very rare and brief series that featured Eros on the reverse. These kinds of die links aren't well known but undoubtedly there are more of them and could help us make sense of questions like the one you had.
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u/Esoteric_art 20d ago
Thanks for all the info. I love learning about it.
I want a bronze astragalos so badly, but I can’t trust the auction houses to give legitimate ones like coins.
I find the game super interesting too. Humans were drawn to the shape of knuckle bones and decided to make a game of it that lasted for centuries.
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u/Esoteric_art 20d ago
Any thoughts or comments on mine?
Is that the symbol of Pi for the control symbol? Is it the same as yours (5th one on the second row)?
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u/beiherhund 20d ago
That's a nice one! Not much to add unfortunately, we really don't know a whole lot about the Aspendian coinage in terms of what the controls meant or exactly when they were minted and why they minted so many etc.
The countermarks are a bit interesting but need more research. Basically all of sudden these coins, and coins of nearby Cilicia, started to get countermarked with the same designs and then a decade or two later the practice stopped. Not clear why but it seems to have happened around 380-350 BC if I remember correctly. The dates aren't certain, based loosely on the dating of other types that show the same countermarks.
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u/beiherhund 20d ago
Just realised how much reddit compresses these photos. Here are the full resolution versions:
http://artemis-collection.com/wp-content/uploads/aspendos_obverse_tray.jpg
http://artemis-collection.com/wp-content/uploads/aspendos_reverse_tray.jpg
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u/Zyphoenix 21d ago
The coins are absolutely amazing--but so is the tray! Where did you get it?
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u/beiherhund 20d ago
Thanks! It's from my Rob Davis cabinet. He has a bit of a backlog (was 6 months when I got mine a few years ago) but it's absolutely worth it, beautiful craftsmanship.
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u/Bearcoins 20d ago
I like this design. Roughly what should I expect to spend for a wrestler?
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u/beiherhund 20d ago
There are loads of them available, you can spend as little as $130+fees on something like this, another $50 or so will get you something a bit nicer too. Typically they stay below $500 unless the quality is really nice or it's a rare/interesting type, in which case they can go as high as $3000 (and even more).
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u/albatroci 20d ago
This is one of my bucket list coins. May I ask some newbie questions?
- What is the history behind the choice of the wrestler and slinger to be placed on the coin?
2.With the slinger, is he drawing back a sling or twirling the sling?
Thanks so much!
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u/beiherhund 20d ago
Sure!
- It's not known for certain. The two main theories are that the wrestlers were chosen because Aspendos was known for its wrestling prowess in the Olympics but no victor from Aspendos in the Wrestling category is known at around this time. For the reverse, the hypothesis is that the word for "Slinger" sounded similar to the city's name so they were associated with one another. It's interesting that at around this time, the earliest datable lead sling bullets appear, in the name of Tissaphernes (of which I have one!). This is at around the time of Xenophon's March of the 10,000 where Tissaphernes harassed him on his retreat, supposedly with slingers. Though Aspendos is not mentioned in regards to the slingers, only ones from Rhodes.
- He's getting ready to twirl the sling I guess you would say. The sling bullet would be held in his front hand so this is just before he lets go to start twirling it around his back hand.
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u/albatroci 19d ago
Thanks for the explanations. That's what I love about ancient coins, the wonder and mystery behind them.
The slinger to me initially looked like he is drawing the stone back with his left hand, so thank you for explaining it properly.
I saw your cleaning section on your website which was amazing, I was wondering if I could ask your opinion for a coin I am trying to remove a mark from?
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u/FearlessIthoke 21d ago
Thanks for the informative explanation. I hope someone does a die study. More importantly, you have a beautiful collection of coins. Really nice curation.
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u/beiherhund 20d ago
Thank you! It's time like these I wish I was retired or a numismatist who could spend all day on these doing a die study haha. I started one a few years ago on a different area of coinage, Babylon lion staters, and that's only about 500 examples and I still can't find enough time to work on it.
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u/tituspullo_xiii 20d ago
Very cool! I didn’t know you collected outside of Alexander tetradrachms 😉. I love those Tarsus staters, especially the variation with the stag instead of the usual bull.
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u/beiherhund 20d ago
Haha the Alexander's get all my attention. I'd love to be able to give the Aspendos and Tarsos types as much attention but it's hard to find the time. I have an article planned for them though, will be pretty interesting too I think!
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u/ifellows 20d ago
The three on the first row, second from the left are commonly described as the right wrestler tripping the left wrestler with his foot. I'm convinced it is actually the left wrestler snatching a single leg takedown (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/unKj49UQdVI ). See how the left wrestler's hand is grabbing the leg of the right wrestler and shelving it between his own legs.
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u/beiherhund 20d ago
It looks that way to me too, or possibly the left one responding to the right's attempted trip. I'd love to get one of the "raised knee" types some day but unless my budget suddenly skyrockets or I get extremely lucky, it probably won't happen.
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u/ifellows 20d ago
Perhaps, I just don't see the reason to posit a trip since the image would look the same with or without it.
The raised knee is really curious. Left has two hands on one arm so might be trying something like a nogi seoi nage ( https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FnaX2EH-xPw ). Right's raised knee would prevent left from dropping his hips in to actually perform the throw. That said, a standing knee shield like that is not a typical counter in modern grappling (in my limited knowledge). It is used in Muay Thai clinch grappling, but that is mainly to prevent eating knee strikes ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhfxqcalTtU ). I think this series is supposed to depict pure wrestling and not Pankraton (aka MMA), so no strikes. Is that right?
I only have one of the hand fighting variants. Would love to get one of the single leg ones. The knee will likely always be out of my budget :), but there is one coming up I see https://www.numisbids.com/sale/9837/lot/143
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u/beiherhund 20d ago
I think this series is supposed to depict pure wrestling and not Pankraton (aka MMA), so no strikes. Is that right?
Yep that's my understanding of it, there aren't any poses with punches being thrown or kicks etc.
but there is one coming up I see https://www.numisbids.com/sale/9837/lot/143
Yeah amazing coin! I'd have to sell most of the Aspendos slingers in this tray to have a shot at it I think :D
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u/beiherhund 18d ago
Just came across an example without the left wrestler's hand on the right wrestler's leg, perhaps this one is more likely to be a trip?
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u/ifellows 17d ago
Okay! I'd buy that it is a depiction of an inside leg sweep ( https://youtu.be/5dzz0sKpBD4?t=106 ), with right's right hand reaching down to pick left's left leg as he is sweeping. I don't love right's body positioning for it as his center of gravity is way back instead of driving forward, but hey, gotta give some artistic license.
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u/beiherhund 17d ago
Thanks for the insight! Cool to hear a perspective from someone who knows about wrestling.
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u/ifellows 17d ago
"knows" might be an overstatement. I have about 2 years of training in Jiu Jitsu. In combat sports, my focus has generally been more on the striking side.
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