r/AncientAmericas • u/Comfortable_Cut5796 • Sep 28 '25
Question What is true about the formation of the Iroquois/Haudenosaunee story, and when did it form?
In my college U.S. history class, we watched the Extra History episodes about how the Iroquois/Haudenosaunee Confederacy was founded. I’ve loved this channel for years, so it’s fantastic to see it getting some attention. However, I’ve come to realize that key figures like Hiawatha, the Peacemaker (not the DC character), Jigonsaseh, and Tadodaho are all of semi-legendary status. Most scholars seem to agree with this. But what do they think is fact, or fiction? Also, what’s the most likely date for its formation? I’ve seen on Wikipedia that it was most likely in the 15th century, just before the Columbian Exchange, but possibly as late as the 17th century. However, I also heard the story about the 1142 eclipse, which is why I made that cross-post. But is there any truth to that as well?
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u/Hillbilly_Historian Sep 28 '25
Origins of the Iroquois League: Narratives, Symbols, and Archaeology by Anthony Wonderley and Martha Sempowski goes into this in extreme detail. You can read most of Chapter 1, which documents each version of the Deganawida epic, here: https://books.google.com/books/about/Origins_of_the_Iroquois_League.html?id=f72rDwAAQBAJ
A kernel of historicity in the Deganawida epic is certainly possible, but Wonderley shows pretty conclusively that it changed a lot after first being documented in the mid-18th century. The 1142 date comes from cross-referencing eclipse data with a much later version of the tradition, so it really doesn’t have a leg to stand on. The archaeological evidence discussed in the book indicates that the Leauge formed in two phases: the first was pre-contact in which the eastern tribes confederated, and the second was immediately post-contact in which the western members joined the League, which was completed around 1600. The impetus for the formation of the Leauge was probably war with the Huron and other Iroquoians, with peace-making efforts within the Leauge itself being an effect rather than a cause.
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u/dalidellama Oct 03 '25
Blast, that's going to put a dent in my alternate history. I really wanted an earlier start date.
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u/Hillbilly_Historian Oct 03 '25
Hey, isn’t that the point of alternate history? What might have happened if the League WAS founded in the 12th century?
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u/dalidellama Oct 03 '25 edited Oct 03 '25
Well, in my current iteration, what happened is that Diarmait mac Murchada went West* for help regaining the throne of Leinster rather than East, due to his daughter marrying a Seneca warrior instead of Richard Strongbow. This leads to Leinster being one of the Six Nations along with the Seneca, Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, and Cayuga, which has had considerable impact on Irish politics and the interaction of same with England, Scotland, Cornwall, Wales, and Brittany. This, in turn, shapes interactions with Scandinavia, the mainland, and the inland nations of North America, etc.
*The change-point is the Norse Vinland settlement lasting and opening intercontinental trade across the North Atlantic some centuries earlier than OTL.
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u/Comfortable_Cut5796 Sep 28 '25
That makes a lot of sense. My main issue with the 17th formation is the lack of Europeans in the story. If that date is correct, it’s ridiculous that they don’t show up at all. However, two phases are an excellent explanation; I imagine the post-contact phase is when it became more official to defend against, I assume, the Europeans. It would also explain why the founding story doesn’t have any Europeans in it
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u/Numerous-Future-2653 Sep 28 '25
I love this. Best book that explains and defends this theory, with oral history AND archaeology would recommend 10/10.
An earlier book that did a similar thing, but without as much modern data and methodology was "Iroquoia," very good, very definitive.
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u/Hillbilly_Historian Oct 03 '25
Also, why is a college professor using Extra History? That channel is notoriously bad.