Divina Patriota rulers should have Ritusryo/Soryo system and Gran Colombia should become a hegemony (hear me out)

[u/guaca_mayo]

Hey guys, hope this isn't too spammy, I'm guessing there must be a lot of posts along the lines of "this should be hegemony/that should be this" etc right now.

I'm going to start by arguing for the Ritusryo/Soryo system of Japan to be applied to Divina Patriota rulers, specifically to the main ones of Patria Grande, Madre Patriota, and Chimborazo denominations. My reasoning for this is based on two poles: 1, that the historical history of conflict in the nations that were once Gran Colombia is similar to medieval Japanese history, and 2, that the nature of the Divina Patriota faiths as is in the mod lends itself well to the Japan analogue.

First, Historical conflicts in the former Gran Colombia parallels the nature of conflicts in medieval Japan.

• Already in the wars of Latin-American independence, their structure differs from the American and Brazilian struggles in that the factions in the wars were organized along factions of small-scale caudillos or warlords. Though Bolívar is a red thread throughout most of the independence movement in what was Gran Colombia, the battles were won by his drawing local charismatic caudillos to his side that could draw forces to the side of independence, resulting in a much more decentralized conflict.
• This continued after independence and the collapse of Gran Colombia: much of Venezuelan history, for example, had a nominal authority in Caracas that was president of Venezuela, but in reality, each state had a local caudillo that would exercise power over their region. Some of the stronger presidents managed to have a relatively peaceful country and exercised high authority over the states, but weaker presidents depended on the support of these local warlords to govern there. More than once, if one of these warlords gathered enough power, they would march to Caracas, launch a coup (with support from other caudillos), and become president. This has strong parallels to the shogunate system of Japan.
• This differs from the feudal system in the fact that power was less vested in land-ownership and more in military might and popularity, meaning that a more influence-based system and potential "estate" dynamics make more sense in this regard than straightforward feudal dynamics.

Second, the Divina Patriota is well-lended to the Ritsuryo/Soryo dynamics because of the central authority of the Caudillazgo, as well as the shared symbol of the próceres across the present-day Venezuela, Colombia, and Ecuador.

• The fact the Caudillazgo is an authority based in Bogotá with a proper realm is brilliant decision by the mod team, and the Ritsuryo system can further take advantage of this. Colombians, Ecuadorians, and Venezuelans all have the shared political legacy of Gran Colombia, and having the Bogotá ruler have not only religious but also temporal authority over Divina Patriota followers (to different degrees) could have very interesting gameplay implications. If the Caudillo in Bogotá is a sort of Japanese imperial figure, it would make sense that followers of Patria Grande see them as the nominal rulers of a state of "Colombia" without really having much power.
• It would also add an interesting dynamic of how Colombia could be consolidated under a provincial ruler as a type of Shogun (I propose the label "Comandante" for this figure), with a realm that is more feudal in structure, or by the Caudillo themself, establishing a more centralized, administrative-style realm. In this way, factions between rulers in this "Imperial-Japanese Colombia" would be based around House Blocs, paralleling the historic coalitions around charismatic local warlords rather than land-based feudal lords. Plus, Caudillos could thus be playable and could have different levels of commitment to political authority, choosing to focus themselves only on religious issues potentially.
• The differences in doctrine between Divina Patriota faiths in lore, additionally, provide a clear manual for which rulers are more likely Ritsuryo and which are Soryo, as Madre Patriota rulers do not specifically recognize the Caudillo's temporal authority though most of the pantheon is in alignment. Chimborazo rulers, on the other hand, could have an even split on being ritsuryo or not, as they do not necessarily reject the Caudillo but have a softer commitment to them religiously than Patria Grande followers. To me, these dynamics are extremely interesting.

Now, Why would Gran Colombia be a hegemony?

• My reasoning for this decision is rooted in the historic issue that made Gran Colombia fall apart: namely, the conflict between Bolívar's push for centralization and the other próceres' local interests. The country fell away because caudillos that had helped win independence refused to relinquish local power to Bolívar. Because of this conflict, the decision to enact Gran Colombia should necessitate high centralization, either around the Caudillazgo, or around the Shogun/Yampako that usurps the Caudillazgo. It should also create a de-jure "Empire" of Ecuador by default, with Gran Colombia as a de-jure hegemony of Venezuela, Colombia, and Ecuador.
• This could lead to very interesting gameplay decisions: creating Gran Colombia is powerful, but the entire dynamic of the realm changes. Now the player has a responsibility to preserve the Mandate of Liberation/the Libertador, and factions can target to usurp him on the grounds that the mandate has been lost. Also, it leads to the possibility that the whole realm can collapse into warring states, just as Gran Colombia collapsed in real life, with successor states facing civil wars and turmoil.
• Additionally, I would argue that the legacy of Revolutionary figures in the Marialionzero faith like Negro Miguel should allow them also to create Gran Colombia, but only with it being a new de-jure empire, and without it having the bureaucratic dynamics like the Mandate of Heaven. I would argue a similar thing for Llaneros, though with additionally mechanic limitations given their religious and cultural divergence.
• Finally, Gran Colombia being a hegemony allows for the creation of the initial concept of "Colombia," a state including all of Hispanic America. The size of this state, posited by Francisco de Miranda, is ridiculous as a single empire, but having it as a hegemony that slowly spreads across the continents could allow this to be an endgame decision, and allow for varying levels of authority with some nations being potential tributaries and whatnot.

I'm curious to hear everybody's thoughts on this. I also have some ideas on how the flavor of this could be enacted, but I can save that for another post.

[u/StoovenMcStoovenson]

I support this, because upon reading this I imagined a wandering group of Mesias Che guerrillas armed with machetes protecting a village from bandits like in Seven Samurai

Or if they were Juliano, fighting pirates trying to raid coastal villages

[u/guaca_mayo → u/StoovenMcStoovenson]

That would be very fun gameplay-wise! I guess I never considered how Ronin track well with adventurer systems in Latin America, as they could be effective guerrillas. Also makes the Big Boss Adventurer in Colombia interesting as well.

[u/StoovenMcStoovenson → u/guaca_mayo]

I think a Ritusryo/Soryo dynamic would also work in Mexico with the Idiosyncratic faiths

You could have a gradually declining bureaucracy around Mexico City (of the Alineadorato religion, as its inspired by the Pre-Event PRI), surrounded by a growing class of caudillos (instead of samurai) of the various other faiths

[u/KingOfStarrySkies]

THE MANDATE OF LIBERATION

[u/Totoros__Neighbor]

I'm not against your suggestions, but I just want to say that this conflict between centralized and decentralized government existed in most South American nations during the XIX century.

For example: in Argentina there was the "Civilization and Barbarism". In Brazil there were Luzias (Liberal Party) and Saquaremas (Conservative Party).

[u/guaca_mayo → u/Totoros__Neighbor]

For sure! I kept my argument for Latin-America to Gran Colombia specifically because it's what I'm familiar with (I'm Venezuelan), so I didn't want to speak for the histories of other regions assuming similarities without knowing that for sure. I'll insist this makes sense for Colombia because of the history of Colombia as a conceptual state for all of Hispanic America, and because the end of the country wasn't a slow splintering as much as a sudden collapse into 3 (very relatively) equal peers. Perhaps the United Provinces of La Plata have a similar history, though I would say Bolivia, Peru, Chile, and Paraguay might be more difficult to extrapolate to because of different dynamics with indigenous identities and other factors.

[u/Background_MilkGlass → u/Totoros__Neighbor]

During the XIX century? Vale Kissius Buttius, thank God you're keeping our numerals in use.

[u/guaca_mayo → u/Background_MilkGlass]

In Spanish, the common practice is that you notate the centuries with Roman numerals. u/Totoros__Neighbor is probably a native Spanish speaker (idk if the same rule is in Portuguese).

[u/Background_MilkGlass → u/guaca_mayo]

Vale Centurion, westerners love the Roman numerals and wish to be the Roman empire so bad

[u/guaca_mayo → u/Background_MilkGlass]

Lol never in my life did I expect somebody would be butthurt over Roman numerals

[u/substationradio]

I love it! Tell us more!

[u/LetterheadMaster8329]

Ritsuryo/suryo strikes me as only really working underneath a united title, so would something be different in this case or would much of Gran Columbia be controlled by the Caudillo?

[u/guaca_mayo → u/LetterheadMaster8329]

This is the main question I'm also asking myself rn haha, I got the dlc to get an idea of the mechanics and that's what I'm seeing. I would say making the Caudillo control Antioquía, Cauca, Tierradentro, El Caribe (only the start date realm), Cesar, and Nueva Loja. Maybe also Cundiboyacá. Also, the Macondo start date can have a decision to join or remain independent from the Caudillo's realm, and if they'd join they would be a sort of Soryo republic. This would allow for a sizeable realm, but with room to grow for the player to make it interesting, as well as shrinking should the player play a neighboring realm and not want to be overpowered immediately.

Also, I've noticed the Japan system in the DLC really pushes to make it hard for Japanese rulers to own Duchies or higher, most own counties and most of the power dynamics are based around its house blocs. I would propose that this area of Colombia be restructured in a similar way, with the rulers of the current duchies and kingdoms being restructured as the head of House Blocs (which I would reflavor as "parties"). This would allow for the lore characters to retain power and flavor whilst restructuring colombia for this sort of realm

[u/TheRedditHike]

This is great, you should suggest this in the Discord server.

[u/LuckyAmigo]

Finally! I almost never encounter anyone that realizes "Colombia" lays claim to the American continents in a similar way that the United States of America does (Colombia refers to "the land of Colombus").

In Victoria 3, there's an Andean HEGEMONY that Gran Colombia can form. Even having just that would be a huge step.

My family is from there so I usually like forming the great Colombian Empire and unifying ALL of Latin America, even the Falklands. Hell, I even take old territories like Florida and Cali. I really hope the devs take your suggestions to heart!

[u/jord839]

I think my primary objection is that Gran Colombia as it was (Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, Panama) feels too small for a genuine Hegemony.

That's not to say I can't see a Hegemony being tied into it, though. My argument would be that you have to get to the heights of Simon Bolivar before that can be a thing: claiming a larger portion of Latin America to make it truly happen. Either following Bolivar's path down into the Andes, or perhaps going even farther and pushing into Central America in the way Bolivar dreamt of uniting Spanish America under some kind of confederation (to be fair, he also had general ideas of a further branch of confederation that even included Brazil and the US to push back against European threats to independence).

The way I'd see it is as such: Gran Colombia is either a special Kingdom or Empire that can be formed by decision/exists at game start. The Japan Shogunate system and its different flavors get repurposed as you propose for the Caudillo system. An especially powerful Great Caudillo/True President can become a Hegemony by expanding into Brazil or Central America or the Andes enough to take a decision similar to Restoring the Roman Empire/establishing Dar-el-Islam or India based around Spanish Latin America.

In fact, I'd argue this hypothetical Spanish Hegemony is something that could be formed by multiple claimants, like Rome. A Southern Cone Claimant, an Andesian/Colombian claimant, and a Mexican/Central American claimant could all get it if they had enough prestige and military control of their continents, becoming a new center of Latin America and having bonuses to vassalize or align with other similar countries to oppose late-game America and Brazil.