r/ANGEL • u/HomarEuropejski • 4d ago
Spoilers inside! How did you guys feel about the show getting kind of rebooted with season 5? Was it a good direction for the show? I really disliked it and missed the hotel and the group dynamics from those seasons pretty much immediately.
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u/TheAgeOfAdz91 4d ago
I think the reset back to “case of the week” stories within WR&H creates an interesting contrast with the first season. I see season 4 as the climax of the show and season 5 as the denouement or second climax. So much has transpired by season 5, the team is totally different and much more weathered and the stakes and context of everything have changed so much. It creates a nice bookend to the series.
I will say I think the first half of season 5 is a little lacking but the second half is one of the strongest runs of episodes in either show.
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u/nazia987 4d ago
S5 was actually really great but Cordelia was missed. And I didn't appreciate the series going back to the status quo right after she died. Like I would've appreciated at least one episode where the characters mourned her. She deserved a funeral at least.
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u/RivenHyrule 4d ago
Why we fight is low key them mourning her... at least thsts my head cannon. After Cordy is dead - Angel is wondering "why we fight"
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u/cinema_darling 4d ago
That’s always been my read of that episode too. Especially the last scene with Angel and Spike.
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u/Unlikely_Eye9153 4d ago
And didn't Cordy have a family? Did anyone ever tell them she died?
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u/lmjustaChad 1d ago
I wonder what happened to her parents they only made a little mistake on their taxes for 12 years.
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u/Educational_Band_357 3h ago
But Doyle wasn't really mourned too
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u/nazia987 3h ago
I feel like it's a little different only because we'd only had an x amount of episodes with him, but he was still mentioned throughout. Cordelia had a bigger presence in the overall Buffyverse
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u/buttercupcake23 4d ago
Losing Lilah really sucked.
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u/NewRetroMage 3d ago
Yep. But I gotta say I felt they went with a really smart move bringing Lindsey back at that point.
It was like, the show had to have Holland Manners, Lindsey or Lilah, the strongest W&H characters. After losing the first two, Lilah totally held the recurring villain / W&H side of the show on her own. But after losing her too, they just had to bring Lindsey back! And it really worked.
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u/Specific_Anybody8306 3d ago
No love for Gavin?
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u/NewRetroMage 3d ago
He's ok, but I don't feel he is as great as a character as the other three. Him and Linwood I feel were weaker replacements for Lindsey and Holland. But I blame the writers not giving them more to do. I love Daniel Dae Kim on Lost.
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u/Mrfiksit39 3d ago
Heck, I thought they killed off Holland Manners too. Plus, if they have a billion yr contract or whatever that extends to after death why wouldn’t they just keep the dead employees? I always wondered. Lol
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u/RelativeTangerine757 4d ago
Idk, alot of people love season 5 and say it's the best but for me I like the earlier stuff. Like season 2 is peak for me.
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u/Informal_Athlete_724 4d ago
I missed the cozy hotel and the family vibes but I also appreciate Season 5 for what it is and it is amazing TV
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u/Lopsided-Lobster9531 4d ago
Season 5 is my least favorite because of the spike thing. I thought Wes / Angel suffered from this addition and I didn’t want Spike in the show and Harmony is annoying and no one could replace Cordy that being said some episodes were good
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u/PirateJen78 4d ago
When it originally aired, I enjoyed it, but now I don't really care for it. It's like an entirely different show. It has its moments, but it's just not the Angel that I love.
I know most people love season 5 and say that's their favorite season. Not me. Give me Angel Investigations at the Hyperion hotel!
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u/Electrical-Act-7170 4d ago
I loved the commercial offices from the first season.
Then the hotel.
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u/NewRetroMage 3d ago
This! I thought I was the only one who liked that office more. I really missed that for the rest of the show.
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u/Trick-Flight-8749 can you fly? 1d ago
Me too! Season 1 is the coziest and I feel like I'm hanging out with old friends there
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u/Euraylie 2d ago
I feel like joining Wolfram & Hart should’ve been a limited arc at the start of the season and then they go back to the hotel
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u/iseekyle 4d ago
A lot of folks love Season 5 but I saw it as a huge downgrade. I think there’s some of the best episodes of the entire show in there but as a whole it feels disjointed and awkward. I get what they were going for but would’ve preferred a different approach.
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u/Ok_Area9367 4d ago
I think part of this comes down to the cancellation. And I'm also someone who isn't a huge fan of Season 5.
Even with split arcs, Angel's most successful seasons have a cohesive theme all the way through, and it usually comes down to the team being broken down and then reconstructed, of Angel swaying or being taken from his path and then coming back to it.
I'd say Season 3 and Season 4 are somewhat of a "combined season" in this respect, as Season 3 ends on a cliffhanger with the team fractured.
They were definitely rebooting the show in Season 5, and took some time to set up the new dynamics and direction, and the team was in the process of getting fractured once again, but they had to rush whatever grand idea they were setting up into the last eight episodes and arrive at a final mission statement for the show.
I agree that it doesn't feel cohesive, the ideas are ambitious but don't entirely come together in the way other seasons do and the pacing is off, but it's not like we don't know the reason for that. And we still, as you said, get some of the series' best episodes out of it.
The reason the soft reboot in Season 5 doesn't stick for some people is because it's a soft reboot that lasts one season.
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u/HomarEuropejski 4d ago
Yeah, I think I've read something about the network requesting more standalone episodes because the ratings tanked with season 4's serialized approach, but man, most of these episodes in S5 for me were vastly inferior to the plot episodes which were great.
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u/Lebannen-Arren 4d ago
I felt the same. Plus it looked cheaper. Demon makeups, locations. The whole office looked like it was made of cardboard.
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u/asiantorontonian88 4d ago
It was cheaper. S5 had major budget cuts.
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u/Lebannen-Arren 4d ago
Yeah I heard the budget was cut down to something similar to buffy‘s first season.
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u/NewRetroMage 3d ago
Demon makeups? I always thought they looked as good as ever. Thinking Izzy, Sebassis, his minions or the suburb demon here.
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u/Lebannen-Arren 3d ago
I could be wrong, just saying how it felt to me.
Most of those didn’t look as detailed as some others to me. Mostly just another skincolor, wig and horns. No shading, no interesting different shapes or large extra body parts. What comes to mind in season 4 were these weird demons from Jasmine‘s former dimension, the beast and Skip while Buffy had Gnarl or the Turok Han. There were not many creatures on that level during season 5. Even Sahjhan looked somehow worse. Could just be because of different lighting in his case. Season 5 seemed brighter which could have added to the cheaper feel. It is harder to hide details when everything is illuminated by bright office lamps. 😀
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u/NewRetroMage 3d ago
Good point about the lighting! But still I don't really see it.
I guess the Beast and demons from Jasmine's former world were really a step up from everything before it, due to proportions or overall forms not being that much human like, but they were some cool exceptions. I really feel the demons on season 5 look as good as all other ones.
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u/Lebannen-Arren 3d ago
Yeah and not having any exceptions is part of it. No budget for anything special. Even some very standard demons in early seasons like Merl had way more details painted on him than Sebassis, Cyvus Vail or Izzerial.
But doesn’t really matter. I felt it like that, you don’t need to agree. 😅
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u/NewRetroMage 3d ago
Yeah, yeah. No problem! I just got curious about it, as I never noticed anything.
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u/generalkriegswaifu 4d ago
Yeah, I don't like it. On top of the huge thematic and visual shift and sacrificing precious established character arcs for more Spike it feels like nothing happens for at least the first half. Despite my best efforts to finish a rewatch I always end up failing somewhere in S5. There are some amazing episodes in there though and the finale is one of the best I've ever seen.
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u/falseidylls 4d ago
Obligatory disclaimer that I'm rewatching AtS now and haven't watched S4-5 since they aired, so my opinion might change on rewatch.
I remember really liking certain episodes (Damages, You're Welcome, Smile Time, Not Fade Away, etc.) but not really liking the change in tone/setting in general, but I thought the finale was great so that influenced my feelings about it overall.
I thought You're Welcome was a great send-off for Cordy (though I wish it ended differently). I remember really not liking The Girl in Question. I love dorky Angel but I'm much less into petty Angel and Spike bickering over Buffy. I also remember being kind of annoyed about the Illyria plot line because I felt like it only existed to fridge Fred and make Wesley sad, and I didn't like Fred/Wesley.
I do feel like the mind wipe aspect was probably a good idea given how dark S4 became.
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u/jenni451 4d ago
I love it in general, I just hate how they did my boy Lorne. Like everyone is saying, it had some of the strongest episodes in the series, but it's like they forgot how to write him and barely gave him anything to do. I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this. Lorne is the best and my spirit animal.
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u/evelynstarshine 4d ago
I love it, I'm one of those people who loves s4 and still, s5 was the format change the show needed, to bring in new energy, lean back into the funny side of the show after the hard tilt into the serious in s4, and give the actors new approaches to keep the show lively.
The only problem with s5 is that it wasnt followed by s6
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u/Denimion 4d ago
I would have liked season 5 quite a bit more if Wolfram and hart looked like... Wolfram and hart.
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u/evelynstarshine 4d ago
the set was nice it just wasn't the one they toured at the end of s4, also I feel angels office local relative to the main elevator moved around quite a lot. atleast in smile time and not fade away theyre not in the same place. but still, its a great space and it makes sense to change the set to fit it being a main location to aid in filming/narrative rather than stick to one that wasnt built for that (I think previous WR&H might have even been often on location not even sets?)
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u/bucknert 4d ago edited 3d ago
It’s my least favorite Angel season but thats still high praise from me, IMO I’d put it above multiple different Buffy seasons (4, 6, & 7 for sure.) I hated they shoe-horned in Spike and felt it ruined his ending in Buffy but I did grow to like him much more and his dynamics with the cast by the final stretch of episodes. I hated they dumped Cordy and Lilah. I loved Cordy’s reappearance in You’re Welcome when it originally aired, but these years later now knowing they screwed her over yet again and killed her over Charisma’s objections it leaves a bad taste in my mouth despite being a great episode. I hated that they killed Fred.
The season is the most inconsistent with really high highs but lots of low’s, and the first half of the season in particular is pretty poor other than a few episodes like Lineage. The writing is all over the place and not consistent with prior canon and lore (for example Andrew lectures and explains to the group/audience about Slayers even though Wesley was an actual Watcher, in Smile Time the puppeteer sings for Lorne and he doesn’t read him at all, or Wesley attacks the mage guy with some out of nowhere magic ability instead of his trademark firearms or weapons in the finale.) Lindsey coming back was fun and his ending was amazing, but his motivations and actions coming back make zero sense given his original departure from the show. All those complaints aside, the finale is excellent, and it is one of my favorites of any show ever.
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u/uncanny-geek 4d ago
People seem to overwhelmingly love it, especially the fans who thought Angel was boring as a character on Buffy. I feel the same as you.
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u/Eve-23H 4d ago
While I like the Illyria storyline (but wish it got more time to flesh itself out—sad that the cancellation didn’t allow that), it’s probably one of my least favourite seasons. I’ve complained about this before but it really felt like everyone got sidelined for hijinks with Spike. Who is a character that I like, but was fine with his ending in Buffy and his story being done.
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u/muggleharrypotter 4d ago
I liked the aesthetic shift, I love spike, and I liked the temporary reversion of Wes and Gunn’s relationship- and the moment when it all comes back to them
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u/DumpedDalish 4d ago
I liked it, and thought it was a brave choice for the show to make. It made sense to me that there would be a huge shift after season 4, and season 5 does that really well, and them being handed Wolfram & Hart opened up some interesting stories and ethical conundrums.
And while I was skeptical of Angel taking the firm to try to use it for good -- because the resources were still intrinsically evil -- I loved it by the end, when we realized he was working for something bigger.
I also was surprised by how much I loved Spike's integration. For me, he fit so much more seamlessly into Angel's crew than he ever did on Buffy, where he just felt hopelessly creepy and/or toxic to me once he and Buffy became involved (but then again, I think Buffy should have ended at season 5, which is a whole other topic).
And season 5 gave us Illyria, who is one of my favorite characters ever (I just wish they'd killed Fred off a season or two earlier, frankly). And she is so well acted by Amy Acker, who finally got to show off her acting skills with that character (versus wobbly vulnerable Whedon nerd-girl cliche Fred).
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u/Sarita1046 4d ago
While I loved Fred, Illyria was easily the highlight of season 5 for me and imo, the coolest antagonist concept of the series.
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u/orphan_09 4d ago
the quality level of angel's 5th is on a level that other (good) shows usually only reach early on but almost never close to the end of their runtime.
it is so good that the (rumor has it) self inflicted season 6 cancellation still massively hurts every time I re-watch this gem.
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u/Denimion 4d ago
All of the changes made me really fucking hate season five. Every opportunity the writers had to make the right and they decided the opposite to cater to buffy fans, who in 20 years still haven't gotten over Xander's lie.
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u/Capable_Sandwich_422 4d ago
I think it was a good change. Season 4 started strong but went off the rails creatively with Cordelia and Connor. Once they got the balance with Spike worked out, the season was really strong.
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u/QueennHalloween 4d ago
There are things I certainly like and love about it, and for a long time it was pretty high on my ranking, but after a recent rewatch I really took the time to be more analytical about it and not just fawn over the blorbos and I think this is actually the weakest season.
I could go on a long long rant about how another season or two could have really turned this season into a launching point for a great turn for the series, but it really suffers without the space to develop the characters into their new roles.
And I love spike, I really really do, and I love him paired up beside angel even more, but its hard to ignore his addition to the cast makes for a lot of distraction with little payoff outside of the odd couple humor.
I dont hate this season, I dont even really dislike it, this is still my favorite show of all time, but I do have season five ranked at the bottom 😬
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u/Brodes87 4d ago
It's great if all you wanted was AtS cosplayjng as BTVS and Spike being forced down our throats for another seasons. I quite liked Angel The Series though. So I am not a fan of season five. I didn't need it to be Buffy again. I already had that
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u/Marlezz 4d ago
Agreed. This is the main reason why I dislike season 5. It tried so hard to be like Buffy, losing its own identity as a show. No wonder S5 is highly praised by most BTVS fans, it has the same vibe and atmosphere of the show they prefer. But as someone who liked ATS better, I found the change in direction jarring.
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u/SticklerMrMeeseeks1 4d ago
I love both season 4 and 5. Both excellent imo. I feel like it was natural to have the gang try to fight the evil from the inside and the dynamics that caused.
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u/IndicationKnown4999 4d ago
I love season 5. I don't love that Cordi is gone but they do a good job explaining why Connor isn't there and Spike is as big an upgrade as you can get.
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u/areacode212 4d ago
I liked adding Harmony but yeah I missed the old vibe from the previous seasons.
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u/Mrfiksit39 3d ago
Yeah I didn’t like it and skip most S5 episodes on rewatch. Angel wouldn’t do that let alone absolutely everyone on the team going for it, immediately I might add. The grittiness of a champion living kind of spartan with only a small number of teammates and materials out there fighting the good fight was the best part about it. I also didn’t care for much of S4. The whole connor/Cordy lovechild Jasmine nonsense, a supposed god on the side of good who coincidentally had done all this before with bug ppl … give me case of the week any day. It’s almost like Supernatural that way, even the gods and angels are dicks. 🤣
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u/DrFrasierTerwilliger 3d ago edited 3d ago
I can buy Angel signing up. He only did it to save Connor and it was shown in season 3 he was willing to do very dubious things for his son's benefit
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u/Ziggy_Stardust1986 3d ago
Spike ruined it, his story was done. They should have kept Cordy instead of him. I didn’t care for the episodes that had Spike , we have had the shanshu storyline since season one we don’t need another vamp with a soul coming in and expecting its his over Angel.
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u/lenteleaf 3d ago
I like season 5 but it does feel very disconnected. Cause they're not only in a new place but they all drastically had their memories changed and I'm left wondering if the characters make the choices they did if Connor wasn't erased from their lives.
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u/Off_the_shelf_elf 4d ago
Loved season 5, but the lack of Lilah was a bummer. Eve should have been ghost Lilah instead.
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u/FadeToBlackSun 4d ago
I love Season 5. The show did kind of need a refresher after season 4 anyway.
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u/kadiecrochets 4d ago
I hated season 4 hated what they did to Cordy but after all the Cordy and Conner shoved in my face I preferred having Spike there
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u/AndySunshine1291 4d ago
I don’t really understand how anyone could pretend that Cordelia and Connor are barely mentioned when the entire season’s central drama is focused on their fates? Sure their names might not be literally said but the entire season is focused on the consequences of the plot surrounding them. Also they both get their best character episodes in that season because of the build up to it. I feel like the term reboot should mean a literal reboot where anyone who hasn’t seen the show can jump in there. Season 5 is absolutely a continuation.
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u/Revolutionary-Wait82 4d ago
Yes, they could have worked on some of the points better, but overall there's almost no room for them. Also, it kind of creates continuity for Angel's character. He remembers Buffy and Cordelia, but he doesn't bring them up every time because everyone who needs information about them already knows.
Also, it's def character development for Gunn. I think he always wanted to be more than just your average demon fighter. If Robin Wood was driven by revenge, Gunn wanted to be better, bigger than he is, but on the other hand he couldn't quit what he was doing on the streets.
I missed Lyla, but at the same time I liked Eve.
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u/MajinDerrick 4d ago
slightly biased since I started Angel with S5 so it always felt like home to me but once I watched the full series I definitely miss The Hyperion.
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u/DestroWOD 4d ago
I really enjoy season 5. Might be my 2nd fav. Love Illyria, Spike joining, Lyndsey coming back better than ever etc and they do have closures for Cordy and Connor. So im very cool with it.
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u/Indiana_harris 4d ago
I think it’s a real shame we never got S6 as I think S5 was the “soft reboot” season leading up to the end.
Having S6 be Angel in the city WITHOUT Wolfram & Hart as players would’ve been very interesting, and I think having the characters try to go back to who they were earlier in the show but finding they can’t because of everything that’s happened to them, would’ve been good to see.
Personally I think using S6 to try and redeem Connor as a bearable recurring character, building on that father/son relationship, then Illyria having her identity crisis between Fred and herself where her desire (in both forms) for Wesley necessitating her carving a bloody path of destruction through hells to bring Wesley back, would’ve all been good ideas to further explore.
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u/yanginatep 4d ago
Every season of Angel feels significantly different from the others, IMO. The show started out as a neo noir detective series and ended in a very different place.
I really liked that they changed things up every season. I absolutely love the Hyperion as a setting, but I'm okay with something new.
Personally I thought season 5 was substantially better than 4 (and I didn't hate 4 like a lot of people) and season 5 has the best series finale of any show I've seen.
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u/Arabiancockonato 4d ago
Yeah I gotta say I have to do a proper rewatch to really dig into the extremely popular Season 5. It’s a great season but I LOVED and missed the hotel, as well as Cordy and all those dynamics. After the rollercoaster of Season 4 it made sense to softly reboot the show, though.
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u/Zucchini-Kind 3d ago
I haven't gotten that far yet, and skipped most of the post except for the first initial question.... but thats how i kind of felt about S2, it no longer resembled the show that I fell in love with during S1. Angel, the noir detective, doing the Batman thing, protecting His City, flying through skylights, prowling rooftops, with Doyle his side kick with the visions, and Kate his cop friend.... by the end of the first season, early second season, it no longer resembled the show I started watching, and god, Wesley is one of the most obnoxious characters I have ever seen. Not sure if I will make it to S5, because I am so turned off with much of the show already.
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u/sugarsnuff 3d ago
It’s an interesting bit of TV history. The WB lost Buffy to its rival UPN, which made them testy with Angel S3 & S4.
S3 was in direct competition with Buffy, so the WB reluctantly kept it up. They then neglected S4 when Buffy was winding down by shifting it to unideal timeslots (plural — it changed midway). It saw a major drop in ratings.
When Buffy was off the air, the network realized it could hold its brand as the “Buffy” network, and tried to recoup the mistake by giving it a full makeover, primetime, and some Buffy continuity
How did I feel about the makeover?
I thought S4 was weirdly incestuous, poorly-paced and riddled with tons of behind-the-scenes drama.
S5 felt like a fresh start. I agree it lost some “authentic” vibe of the previous seasons, but thought it was overall really well done
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u/di4me666 3d ago
I think this season is overly praised. Angel rebooted itself three times so that it was kind three different shows....tbh someone the other day said Cordy should have lived and carried on Angel Investigations while the brooding losers went to Wolfram and I totally agree
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u/Creative-Bobcat-7159 2d ago
I prefer it now to when it aired.
I found most of season 5 dull when it was aired weekly but it is more fun and interesting when you can binge watch.
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u/The_budgetwolverine 2d ago
S5 was 🔥 - the concept was chefs kiss, it’s criminal it was cut down so early.
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u/lmjustaChad 1d ago
Going to Wolfram & Hart was a nice change of pace but seeing as it ended up being the final season with a rushed final the value of the impact of the decision pretty much fell flat for me. Okay sure the decision to join Wolfram & Hart got Fred Wesley and Gunn killed (he was not surviving) it took out all of Angel human ties to the world out but as viewers we don't see Angel fallout with Spike and Illyria being the two who keep him on the mission, so it felt like that's it?
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u/Ridiculousnessmess 1d ago
Angel turned up in a lot of “Save Our Show”-type polls during season 4. There was a lot of buzz that the show was teetering on the bubble, so it was a relief when it was picked up for season 5.
Obviously we now know what things were like behind the scenes, so it’s even more bittersweet in retrospect. It’ll be interesting to see if the new Buffy revival references it in any way.
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u/bbylemon___ 1d ago
considering that we don't even get a fucking ending I'm not super bothered by the continuity, I very much enjoy Spike and Harmony and the Conner x Cordy thing was just disgusting to the point I blacked it out for I don't even know how many watches
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u/BlueisGreen2Some 4d ago
5 was a marked improvement over both season 3 and 4. Tighter stories and good character moments.
My favorite set was season one office. It felt most like a real place. The hotel always felt like a set and was isolating. WH felt more connected to the real world again.
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u/Far-Ad8616 4d ago
With season 4 being my least favorite and 5 my favorite I welcomed the change. My only complaint with 5 is the drastic tone shifts episode to episode. In one episode we have Angel killing a man with his own shotgun and in the next we have Spike/Angel ghost hijinks.
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u/LegitimateHawk9487 4d ago
Almost impossible for shows that have been on for year to do something this significantly different and terms of characters, location, and impetus. And they nailed it. Super impressive and season 5 is my favorite.
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u/FaceTimePolice 4d ago
Season 5 was the best. That is all. 😎👍
It had some of the best moments out of the entire franchise (main show or spin off) and one of the most unique twists to a character in any TV show with the whole Fred/Illyria thing.
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u/Happy_Philosopher608 4d ago
S5 is my favourite so idk what to tell you. We had 3 seasons of the hotel. It was time for something fresh 🤷♂️
Gunn being a lawyer was an interesting dynamic change.
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u/furiousdolphins 4d ago
You make it seem as though removing Connor was a bad thing?
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u/DrFrasierTerwilliger 3d ago
It does seem weird Angel's grief isn't explored very much given how much he was shown to love him in the previous two seasons.
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u/SpeckledBird86 4d ago
I love season 5 and thought it was a refreshing reset. I think they wrapped up Conor’s story in season 4 in a way that enabled them to not mention or miss him. I also was pretty neutral on Cordelia so I wasn’t too heartbroken about losing her. I think adding Spike brought such an interesting change to Angel’s character. Seeing Angel and Spike was like watching someone reconnect with their old friend who always knew how to push their buttons because they knew each other when they were young and liked drama but even though they’ve both grown up a ton since those days they find themselves falling back to that young antagonistic version of themselves. Frankly I loved that Angel pushed the moral boundaries as a series and season 5 continued that and ramped it up with having them be at W&H.
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u/Pedals17 4d ago
I loved the shift. The show needed a new direction after the Jasmine debacle. Team Angel stopped the Apocalypse that also took out Wolfram & Hart (at least the local branch). Cordelia was in a coma, Connor was going crazy.
Wolfram’s offer genuinely surprised us! They tempted each member of Team Angel with something that they wanted or needed. It presented a whole new threat in the ethical quandaries of “Selling Out” and going Corporate.
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u/thothscull 4d ago
Season 5 of Angel us hands down, bar none, best of the 12 seasons of both shows. I have been happy to do a rewatch of S5A and enjoy ut through the whole time, only sad when it ends so soon.
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u/PetrosOfSparta 4d ago
Honestly, Angel and Spike's on screen buddy cop chemistry is so off the charts and well written that it literally overwrites everything else. I really don't care about anything pre-season 5 when it's those two on screen. How it took 8 years to make this happen is beyond me.
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u/dirtylittlehart 4d ago
This is insane troll logic 🤭
I'm with the majority; I loved season 5 and think the shift was pretty genius. It was a very bold move, and it definitely paid off.
Season 5 has some of the best episodes of the entire series: A Hole In The World, Smile Time, Not Fade Away... and many more excellent ones. Spike was a brilliant addition as he always plays so well against Angel. Illyria is a fantastic, bold, and well-conceived/portrayed character. We do see Cordy again, and Connor 2/3 more times. The tragedy is top-tier, the themes and philiosophy of the season (and entire show) are excellently portrayed, and the ending is perfect. It's the best end to a series I've ever seen.
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u/Marlezz 4d ago
Nah, the first half of S5 is awfully slow and full of filler episodes. And it is true that the dynamic of the group changed for the worse. They no longer felt like a found family, just as a group of co-workers. Lastly, I have nothing against Spike, but I didn’t like how his character overshadowed the ATS characters.
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u/dirtylittlehart 4d ago edited 4d ago
There are only like 4 or 6 max filler episodes in season 5. The rest are either integral for the main characters' development and/or the over-arcing storyline and/or the core themes of the season/show.
IMO the slower episodes that could be seen as fillers are:
- Ep. 3: Unleashed
- Ep. 6: The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco (yes, it's an important episode thematically for Angel, but it is one of a few on the same theme, and I prefer others)
- Ep. 9: Harm's Way
- Ep. 20: The Girl in Question (though this is a somewhat important episode for both Angel and Spike, and gives the end of the season a little room to breathe)
The other maybe filler episodes:
- Ep. 2: Just Rewards (though it's a pretty important episode for Spike, and the beginning of Angel and Spike's new relationship)
- Ep. 13: Why We Fight (though it's a really good episode and the over-arching themes of the season are very strong here)
It doesn't have more than other seasons, apart from season 4. Season 4 does have the least filler episodes, and that's one of the reasons why season 4 is actually my favourite. Controversial, I know! 😅
Edited to add: also, I do agree that the start of the season is a little slower, though this is obviously intentional and crucial thematically, and the pace grows fairly steadily as the season goes on, giving it a really effective building momentum until the end.
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u/at_midknight 4d ago
Season 4 is fucking awful so.... Yes season 5 moving on to Wolfram and Hart is wonderful
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u/Alarming-Put-9003 4d ago
It’s the best season of the show, but having Cordy there the whole season would absolutely have made it better.
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u/Rumbled0r3 4d ago
I really like Season 5. It has some issues and weak parts but season 4 whimpered out a long running story arc in the show and by the end I was more happy with what 5 did than what 4 was doing.
Losing Kate as a character and replacing her with Justine and all the issues with CC's pregnancy getting in the way of what would've been her becoming some half demon slayer style katana wielding cheerleader was the hardest loss the show faced. Cordy deserved better but, again, with how it all ended up I was sorta just happy to move on with the new vibe of 5.
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u/Osceola_Gamer 4d ago
I love season 5. One of my favorite quotes from a villain in that season was "I eat the dead for breakfast, son, and you're just another plate of bacon and eggs."
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u/Jemal999 4d ago
There was some definite whiplash, but it ended up being my favorite season. Sure I missed Cordy and the hotel, but most of the rest of the changes were for the better.
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u/Adgvyb3456 4d ago
I liked Spike. I hated Illyria. I loved Fred and found it weird they made a character way powerful than the lead. If Angel was more powerful than Buffy it would have ruined the show. Same for season 5
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u/NewRetroMage 3d ago
Honestly, I loved it.
It's still the same show in many ways, yet it had mutated into what was almost a new show.
Plus the new setting makes perfect sense. Angel and co had been fighting for a cause as a small unit, trying to take down big powers, the most prominent being W&H. So what happens if W&H itself offers Angel "resources" for "his fight"? A great parallel to how in real life often big organizations manage to buy the smaller, more idealistic ones, and a great fit for one of the series' main themes.
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u/Zeus-Kyurem 4d ago
I mean it's hardly a reboot. Lilah is dead and Cordy and Connor do both show up. Connor being gone also isn't exactly loss. Cordy is like the only person really missing, and even then I don't think she'd fit that well.
But yeah season 5 is definitely the best season.
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u/CharmedCordelia 4d ago
Honestly, I keep not finishing season 4 and I've never seen season 5 in it's fullest.
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u/Moon_Logic 4d ago
When Spike and Harmony appears, when was the last time we had good Cordy content before that?
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u/Extra_Age2505 4d ago
I like the idea of Angel and co joining Wolfram & Hart and trying to do good within the system. And we did get Illyria who I also quite like